Am i a minority?

Applying to College
41

<p>AdOfficer, I find your idea of choice according connection to the ethnic group community impractical. Most people do not tell what their ethnic perspective is in their application unless they think it is a hook.</p>

<p>Because of my profession, I have met blacks who main connection are really to the geek community. So you have a black applicant, who is active in open source projects, keep talking about linux, video game and the tech community. So according to you, he shows no connection to the black community, no black perspective, and by your definition will not contribute to the culture diversity and should be rejected. The college would not think so. The college sees a black who is interested in engineering and science in a field with very few black students. The college would considered him to be a prized recruit. College administrators are mostly interested in numbers that appears on a one page press release. In a press release a black is a black. Colleges are under a lot of pressure to put up good numbers. The college's priority is ultimately the ADCOM's priority.</p>

<p>Questions like “am I a XYZ” appear often in the forum. In most case they are confused rather than trying to cheat. We have a very convoluted system here, people are confused in borderline cases. And even if they are trying to take advantage of the system, you cannot blame them. If you do not want people not to use a tax loophole, you should write a tax code that does not have that loophole. Unfortunately the whole ethnic classification is as complicated as our tax system.</p>

42

<p>bomgeedad, I think you badly misinterpreted AdOfficer's post.</p>

43

<p>According to the definition given by the U.S. Census Bureau, Middle Eastern people are considered to be "white".</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
But to the OP, I'd do whatever they permit. I definitely wouldn't feel guilty about gaming a corrupt system.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>And make it even more corrupt? JustBrowsing is completely correct. It would be potentially dangerous (and unfair) to call yourself by a race you are not and that you don't identify yourself as.</p>

44

<p>bomgeedad,</p>

<p>connecting to a community doesn't mean embracing it 24-7...it could also mean sharing a common experience, like prejudice because of one's skin color. sorry if i was not clearer. but again, your assertion that colleges only care about what is released in a "one page press release" with respect to diversity is just wrong. are some schools trying desperately to diversify their student bodies? yes. is it just for pr? no...there's a pedagological reason for having a diverse student body - one the most people not interested in diversity like to ignore. with the same perspectives on everything in the classroom, learning becomes terribly one-sided and staid. </p>

<p>FYI to everyone...on the Common Application, the box reads: "African American, African, Black"...I think this is pretty clear. </p>

<p>I read a student this weekend who checked off that she was Hispanic because her grandmother is Spanish (from Spain); however, she (grandma) was born in the Philippines (her familiy was there running a trade company according to the student's essay about her grandmother...millionth grandma essay i've read already this year...) and so this student also checked the "Asian" box and listed the Philippines as the country of her family's origin. I think this is clearly an example of someone claiming to be something they are not...regardless of her race, this student is being denied, but I was struck by her audacity to identify not only as hispanic, but also as filipino...</p>

<p>i find it truly humorous that people are calling "the system" corrupt...it is clear that many folks really don't know how affirmative action is used in admissions (clear from a lot of the postings on CC) and to call the process of considering a student's background in admissions decisions as corrupt simply perpetuates a lot of the inequalities that already exist in our educational system and society.</p>

45

<p>determined my color?</p>

<p>Your the type of idiot who's gonna grow up in this country and call all asians chinesse and think all african americans and hispanics are all the same thing.</p>

46

<p>^^^^^
not sure who that is directed to, but calling someone an idiot doesn't help enlighten them to cultural differences that are valuable to everyone's learning.</p>

47

<p>AdOfficer, by your latest definition connecting to community does not means anything, at least for the blacks. The reason is this, every black activist will tell you that every black in this country, regardless of social status, faces some form of discrimination. And so all blacks share the common experience of prejudice and hence are connected to the community. So black skin color implies connection to black community implies good for diversity.</p>

<p>I said “College administrators are mostly interested in numbers that appears on a one page press release.” In my dictionary, “mostly” is different from “only”.</p>

<p>Forgive me if I am very cynical. I used to work for a big company that keep saying that they want to change the world, care about the customer and the environment. At that time I truly believe in that. Only after I left did I realize what they really care is the sales and earning figure in the quarterly statement. The elite colleges goes into AA big time in the early seventies because of the student protest movement. During that radical period, they recruited from the inner cities to satisfy the protesters' demand. The college soon found out that these inner cities blacks were flunking out from a college that usually don't flunk students out. They make a conscious decision that middle class blacks make a better fit in elite colleges. They have been doing it for over 30 years. In the AA report a black is still a black, whether he is from the ghetto or from middle/upper class. The number is the thing that really counts. It is only until recently there are complaint of this issue that the elite colleges to take small steps to address it. On the issues of large percentage of black immigrant in elite colleges, of course the officials knew about it for ages, but again a black is a black, it is the number that counts. So they turn a blind eye to it. It is only until Guinier and Gates Jr made noise about it that they try to do something it.</p>

<p>Enron employees really believe in their company until the very end.</p>

<p>If the elite college really want to do something about minorities. They should take 10% of their obscene amount of endowment (still less than 1 year's growth) and distributes it to colleges like South Alabama state college (a make up name), that would be far more effective.</p>

48

<p>bomgeedad - the private sector and education are two very different things...one seeks to make profits, the other seeks to impart and creat knowledge...</p>

<p>your interpretation of my "latest definition" of community isn't exactly how i described it (i didn't say that facing prejudice is the only defining characteristic of a community); in fact, my comment is pretty clear about that. however, i would actually agree with the black activist you describe...every black friend, student, acquaintance, colleague, neighbor, teacher, etc..., i have ever had/met has encountered some form of discrimination in their lives because of the color of their skin. some are very good at not taking in personally, others are not...just because a black individual isn't a member of the naacp or an "activist" or hasn't had someone in a white sheet and hood show up on their doorstep doesn't mean they haven't been discriminated against because of the color of their skin...why do people think racism and discrimination do not still exist at a frightening level in this country?</p>

<p>i am in agreement with you that affirmative action policies have been stretched AT SOME INSTITUTIONS...however, having an african-black student in a class as opposed to an african-american black student in a class still serves the purpose of having a diverse group of perspectives in a classroom. </p>

<p>many elite colleges and universities have established partnerships with historically black colleges and universities and share their wealth. Exchange programs, early acceptance to grad schools, and minority fellowship programs exist at all kinds of places (Brown University with Tougaloo College, for example). other elites are reaching out to the historically black colleges and universities that were ravaged by katrina (Princeton and, again, Brown, dropping millions of dollars to support Xavier and Dillard). these elite colleges don't live in a vacuum where social ills do not exist...could they do more? yes. but these schools are doing more to attract talented URM students than ever before...</p>

49

<p>^^^
Just to be on the record, I don't know what position I want to take on the issue of black immigrants. It is really not easy to decide.</p>

50

<p>Adofficer-How would an adcom treat a privileged black applicant from a private hs? Would he be viewed negatively for checking off the box?</p>

<p>And on an unrelated note:
How about an incredibly rich white applicant who grew up with nannies and absentee parents? (obviously NOT checking the african/black box)</p>

<p>I ask these questions in all sincerity.</p>

51

<p>also other question...how do you view minority applicants from middle class backgrounds</p>

52

<p>I didnt read the whole topic but I am just gonna put my opinion.</p>

<p>First of all, you are 1/4 African American, like it or not. As someone mentioned, African-American doesnt say "Black".</p>

<p>Its the same thing, I am White myself but I am Cuban. In fact, all my family is White because my Grandparents came from Spain to Cuba. I still put Hispanic because I am, Hispanic is a culture or ethnic label, not a race one.</p>

<p>Put you are African American. Because you are.</p>

53

<p>baseballmom and beefs - we are looking at what kids have done with the opportunities they have had...if a black student of privilege hasn't taken advantage of their private school, etc..., they aren't going to be looked at too positively at a lot of elite. when reading an application from a black student (or any other URM student) the question is always going to be "how is this student going to add? are they going to offer a different perspective that could add to our classrooms, dorms, etc...from a cultural point of view?" a black student - wealthy or not - at a predominantly white school will probably have a different perspective on things than their white peers. does this necessarily "qualify" a student for admission? no...their academics primarily do. but if we are looking at a school where several students have applied, it may help the student if their academics are strong enough like everyone else's. same thing goes with any other URM student or low-income students of any color - these students are dealing with different social, racial, class, and financial issues than their wealthier, white peers are not...and remember, these wealthier, white peers are still more over-represented (i know that sounds awkward...) at most elite colleges than any other population of students (so don't cry about this if you're rich and white...you have a better chance of going to an elite college than students of any other background!)</p>

<p>acere - okay, you said you are white...but you indicate that you're hispanic on college applications because your parents were born in cuba. sorry, that's disingenuous. culture/ethnicity/origin of passport and race are not the same things...your geographic location/place of birth is not the same thing as your race or color of skin, which is what racial discrimination is based upon (and why we have affirmative action). there is a difference between identifying with a culture (ie, you identify with the cuban one) and being of a certain racial group (ie, you are of the white race). this issue is about people being historically and currently discriminated against because of the color of their skin - a physical attribute one cannot change (michael jackson jokes aside, thank you) - and not because of one's cultural identity. are the two mutually exclusive? not entirely, but they are not as closely related as you are making them out to be.</p>

54

<p>I see your point but I am still considered Hispanic. There are a lot of White Cubans in Miami who are still considered Hispanic.</p>

<p>Here the issue is that you are thinking of the Hispanic term as "brown", for example Mexicans. First of all, African-American denotes people from Africa, it doesnt say Black, although thats what we associate it with when we think of it. Its the same with the term Hispanic, you guys think of brown people. And thats wrong.</p>

<p>Heres the defition of Hispanic:</p>

<hr>

<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Hispanic is a term denoting a derivation from Spain, its people and culture. It follows the same style of use as Anglo, which indicates a derivation of England and the English. </p>

<p>As used in the United States, Hispanic is one of several terms of <b>ethnicity</b> employed to categorize any person, of <b>any racial</b> background, of any country and of any religion who has at least one ancestor from the people of <b>Spain</b> or Spanish-speaking Latin America</p>

<hr>

<p>As you can see by this, even the Spanish Europeans classify as Hispanics. My Grandparents that were born in Spain, are Hispanic. I am Cuban-born, of Spanish ancestry, and even though my skin color is White, I am Hispanic. Because as the definition says, Hispanic is a term of ethnicity regardless of race.</p>

<p>Hope I make this clear.</p>

55

<p>I have agree with Acere. Calif dept of education's ethnic classification says white(not of Hispanic origin) and Hispanic/Latino, which obviously implies there are white that are of Hispanic origin.</p>

<p>In UC's application form, the ethnic box has one that says Other Spanish American/Latino (includes Cuban, Puerto Rican, Central America, South American). So Cuban is obviously different from ordinary white, just like Puerto Rican or Guatemalan.</p>

<p>I think the whole ethnic classification check box thing is too complicated and silly.</p>

56

<p>If you're going for an interview, mark yourself as white. If not, use what you've got by all means.</p>

<p>But rememeber, diversity won't save a poor applicant. A girl at my sister's school is from Nairobi and was adopted by lesbian parents, but still was deferred from ED Smith.</p>

57

<p>The system sucks, I'm screwed because i'm an Asian male. The only university that probably give me a fair fighting chance is probably Caltech, (70% male, 30% female, 40% Asian, 38% white, you can tell they don't give a dam about affirmative action or race balancing). I say you play the system as well as you could. On my application I don't bother fill out my nationalities nor races, and because my Chinese name sounds like English, they won't know I'm asian. Learn to play the system. Or the system will play you.</p>

58

<p>"But rememeber, diversity won't save a poor applicant. A girl at my sister's school is from Nairobi and was adopted by lesbian parents, but still was deferred from ED Smith."</p>

<p>Poor applicant as in "not good", or as in "poverty-stricken"? Smith has the highest percentage of Pell grant recipients in the US, which says that it is committed to accepting--and retaining--students who could not otherwise afford college. </p>

<p>AdOfficer, I've appreciated your honest posts in all the forums, but I have to disagree about your comment about a "white Cuban" not being Hispanic. The Cuban culture is strongly linked to its language and heritage. There are black Cubans and white Cubans, but they are all Hispanic. </p>

<p>It reminds me of a now-famous Asian Indian pundit who was one of the founders of a conservative newspaper at the college I attended. This person was part of some racial/AA attacks in his young journalistic career; yet, when questioned, he claimed he was white, despite the fact that most whites on campus saw him as non-white because of the color of his skin. I'm sure that the adcom saw him as Indian, because that was his family culture/heritage, and wanted what he could bring to the college besides his intelligence; yet, he thought of himself as "white" even though he was also "Indian." At the time, I remember questioning our preconceived notions of racial identity. Now, with this latest thread, I see how tenuous racial identification has become. I mean, what does someone like Tiger Woods say? Visually, he's black, but he's also Asian and white. "Other" seems like a dodge, especially since many whites and Asians are opting for this to "hide" what they perceive is a strike against them. What about the URM applicant who opts not to dwell on ethnicity on his application even though it's a very important part of who he is?</p>

<p>As you know from other threads, I'm all for AA because of what it brings to colleges and universities. I am disappointed by those who try to manipulate the system by pretending to be what they are not or by hoping that a distant, long-dead relative can get them into college. (Yeah, I know, AA doesn't work this way - but too many on CC don't understand that.) Still, this thread raises issues about definitions that may not have clear answers.</p>

<p>As our culture becomes more multicultural and multiracial, how do admissions officers deal with this reality? A person who is 2/3 white and 1/3 black might identify with either whites or blacks, depending on circumstances, but it doesn't change who he is. How can adcoms know whether such an applicant will bring the perspective of racial history to a university? After all, even a light-skinned black can experience the same discrimination that a dark-skinned one can.</p>

59

<p>"The only university that probably give me a fair fighting chance is probably Caltech,"</p>

<p>Actually, all will give you a "fair fighting chance." You just have to be able to win the fight.</p>

<p>I'm getting tired of all the Asians on CC saying that they are at a disadvantage simply because of one book that says they are. Yes, Asians used to have an advantage, back when few Asians came to the elite schools, but now they are in the same spot as most of the country. You have to beat out the competition for the few spots available at elite universities. There's no conspiracy against Asians. </p>

<p>Everyone has a fair shot. Some get in. Some do not. End of story.</p>

60

<p>Disingenuous? Sorry, AdOfficer, I can't agree.</p>

<p>This is a byproduct of the racial preferences system you support. When students know that certain races are preferred over others (because they can contribute to a "diverse" environment), they will seek any and all legitimate edges.</p>

<p>David Nalbandian, currently the world's top-ranked Argentine male tennis player, is a national of Argentina. His grandfather emigrated from Armenia. Does that mean he's not Hispanic? Ridiculous.</p>

<p>Rodriguez Pablo Lara was a world-record holder and Olympic gold medalist in the 76 kilo weightlifting class. He is Black and represented Cuba internationally. Does his Black skin mean he is not Hispanic? Laughable.</p>

<p>The Qing Dynasty of China was ruled by Manchurians. After a century, however, almost no one in the Imperial Court could speak the Manchurian language. When the dynasty finally collapsed, the elites had become so sinicized that a simple name change could prevent discrimination. Manchus are ethnically distinct from the Han, and they were linguistically and culturally distinct in the past. Does that make them any less Chinese? No.</p>