Am i a minority?

Applying to College
61

<p>"I'm getting tired of all the Asians on CC.."</p>

<p>Uh. I've only been here for a little while and can already tell that you're exaggerating. I'm Asian and I feel that I have legitimate concerns about getting into college. A lot of people on CC want to go to the college of their choice. Asians may have a strike against them, and that just makes them feel that they are less qualified to go to a school, even if they are able to beat out other applications that are not Asian.</p>

<p>I'm sorry, but I find these concerns legitimate and natural. I would feel the same way if a blatantly less qualified applicant was accepted and I was not.</p>

62

<p>"I've only been here for a little while and can already tell that you're exaggerating."</p>

<p>Yes, I was. And I apologize. (I meant to say that I was tired of all the Asians on CC who complain - and not the others - but that would have been hyperbole as well.)</p>

<p>I agree that the concerns may be natural - but I'm not sure they are legitimate. I'm not going to get into an argument about the specifics of admissions since that has been done and re-done in several different forums, but I do object to the unwavering cry of "victim!" In the spring, there will be thread after thread of "I was rejected from this college because I'm Asian" without considering other factors - such as the sheer competition - and without acknowledging that many Asians <em>were</em> accepted. </p>

<p>Maybe because whites went through many of the same thought processes at the beginning of AA and were since proven wrong, I find this pervasive complaint to be counterproductive. Of course, if a court or the OCR (where Jian Li's complaint is being investigated) decides otherwise, I will be all for rectifying the wrong. In the meantime, the Asians who say they hate who they are or who adopt a defeatist attitude or who try to rationalize their disappointments by claiming racism should take a serious look at what such thinking does to their psyches.</p>

<p>Again, I apologize for the exaggeration. I must have reached my breaking point last night.</p>

63

<p>Definitely put African American.They care more about that % black number than the number of "opressed" or "true" black people. Many top urm admits can't claim a connection to slavery, but they're first in line to accept the undeserved boost. Think about it. If you want a school with more diversity you will look at the racial %, so the school will want people who can help them pad these numbers</p>

64

<p>I am in a similar situation.</p>

<p>My grandmother is 100% mexican, leaving me to be 1/4 mexican. However, I am white (i take on my mom's irish side of the family). My grandmother is definitely mexican, and there is no questioning of her heritage. The only question is that if I have enough of it to claim Hispanic. Two questions:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>If I haven't been claiming Hispanic up to my junior year in high school, is it too late? What can I do?</p></li>
<li><p>The race option for White shows : "White (Not of Hispanic Origin), which actually gives me a decent reason to argue against it, because techinically I am of some hispanic origin, even if you would never know by looking at me. Do I have a case?</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Anything helps, thanks.</p>

65

<p>I wish applicants would all leave the boxes blank. If they want to reveal their race, ethnicity, religion, etc., they can do so in their essay, recommendations or the application as a whole.</p>

66

<p>DeepRun, if you haven't been thinking of yourself as Hispanic until right now in the midst of college admissions, then it is "disingenous" as AdOfficer would say.</p>

67

<p>Was it just me that read Acere's post which said "I am white myself... but I am Cuban"? If you identify as white, which you did, then racially, you're white. If you identify with the Cuban culture, you should make that distinction too by indicating that you are Cuban-American somewhere in your application (essay, maybe?)...but to say that you are RACIALLY Hispanic - and ONLY Hispanic - when you are only separated from a white European country by one generation (and not born into a family that has native Cuban roots) is, IMHO, disingenuous. There are black Cubans, white Cubans, and Hispanic Cubans just like some folks have mentioned in much the same way that there are black Americans, white Americans, and Hispanic Americans...since the United States' culture and language is predominantly white-influenced, does that mean that a black American or Hispanic American is white? No. Race and ethnicity/culture are different things...</p>

<p>The reason affirmative action in higher education exists is to compensate for the discrimination - both historical and current - that creates inequalities in the opportunities students have in educational attainment because of race. There is a difference between how a student like Acere - appearing white - is treated versus a student who's family is from, say Mexico - appearing "brown" as Acere puts it - is treated in our school systems. The latter is the student for whom the Hispanic/Latino/Chicano box exists...yes, race and culture are both social constructs, but racial discrimination happens because of the assumptions made of one's observed skin color...this is why African blacks who come to the United States for college often have few problems adjusting initially but are later frustrated by the way they are treated here. These students have not faced discrimination in their own countries (which are predominantly black - their race) usually and are high achievers, able to do well academically in America's best colleges and universities, yet after some time in the United States, they internalize the racism they experience/observe here and do not do as well. This doesn't usually happen with Spaniards (students from Spain who are white-appearing) who come to study in the United States...I hope this makes my point clearer. </p>

<p>Part of the problem is raised well by baseballmom - just checking off a box isn't going to explain, for example, how Acere identifies racially as white but culturally as Hispanic/Cuban. Personally, I think that whatever makes your perspective unique is what should be considered...if that's influenced by your race, culture, ethnicity, sexuality, gender, religion, so be it...</p>

<p>Fabrizio - let's not start again...I do not support "racial preferences" and I made the distinction between "racial preference" and affirmative action explicitly clear in another thread which you chose to ignore. David Nalbandian, for the record, identifies as Argentian/white, not Hispanic...I'm an avid fan of his (well, until recently...he isn't playing so hot nowadays), btw. But again, you are twisting things as you have in previous posts in other threads...culture/ethnicity (Manchu vs. Han vs. Chinese) is different from race (Asian)...</p>

68

<p>Momwaitingforthenew,</p>

<p>I understand what you meant. A lot of my friends have similar concerns.. especially with many seniors crying that AA has done them wrong. My school has a ton of overachievers but not well-rounded or special-interest students. They are for the large part, bookworms, but they go straight home after school and don't do much else. They come from a variety of different backgrounds and I have to say their lack of ECs and passion for much of anything except academia shows through their application -- which is a greater reason for denying admission than simply the applicant's race.</p>

69

<p>DeepRun...it sounds like one side of your family is white, the other part Chicano/Hispanic/Latino...you sound biracial, actually. It seems like it is appropriate to indicate you are white and Chicano if one side of your family is from Mexico (meaning several generations are from there). However, if you really do not identify with that race and are not comfortable doing so honestly, I wouldn't identify as such.</p>

70

<p>i have a situation to pose:</p>

<p>a very good friend of mine is in the senior class (as am i) and applied to HYP stanford, etc...she has around 3.33 average (very competitive private hs) and average SATs for our school (~1300s) her ecs arent spectacular.</p>

<p>looking at her, you would think she is white with possibly a bit of italian/hispanic heritage. </p>

<p>her father is from england. aka 100% wasp.</p>

<p>her mother's father was part black (~75%). making her part black. </p>

<p>she took the cheek swab test to see what she was, as proof if colleges challeneged her. it came back that she was 60% african american. (along with a multitude of other things).</p>

<p>she marked african american on her apps. she is from an EXTREMELY affluent community, both parents are doctors. as i said i know her very well; she has never identified with the african american community except to benifit from AA opportunities.</p>

<p>what are people's thoughts? mine are that it is indeed disingenuous, esp after we were talking and i asked if she sent a pic with her apps (i did with mine) and she said 'no. they would try to call me out on stuff'.</p>

<p>ps: if you are pro AA, great. from everything I have heard so far about it, though, i am not. my status is that if someone can convince me (which i am able to be convinced of being politically incorrect on topics) that AA is appropriate for college admissions, fine. as far as i see it, people should be judged on what they have done with their life. if they do not have the scores, grades, motivation, or general intelligence to be in a certain school i do not think that their race should permit them to. </p>

<p>case and point: there are specialty programs for future URM doctor where they accept people with <1000 SATs and poor grades. i just dont understand this. i understand they did not get the opportunities that some non URM people got, but that does not mean they are as smart as the ones who still got great grades and good scores.</p>

<p>I believe there should be economic action rather than affirmative action. there are plenty of poor white kids who are as smart as the poor URMs but dont get the opportunities. this baffles me.</p>

<p>anyway, long story short, responses?</p>

71

<p>adofficer...im am biracial 1/2 hispanic 1/2 arabic(egyptian)...i have always identified with both sides of my family and am extremely close with both...i know arabic as well as spanish...personally i dont identify as white which is what the us census bureau puts arabs under...i dont know what i should put...what are your opinions? </p>

<p>beefs</p>

72

<p>Minority status is definitely defined by skin color, because that's how people were discriminated against. Otherwise, I'd be a minority- I don't know a single person at my high school who is of Slavic heritage. They don't sell the ingredients to make our dishes in supermarkets, people are completely unaware of our traditions, etc. But white is white! </p>

<p>Something that's always annoyed me is that they list over 10 different kinds of Asians, but one kind of white. Bleh. Affirmative action is lame. A black kid going to my high school would have the exact same experience I've had, but I bet if he had similar credentials and we both applied somewhere... well, you know.</p>

73

<p>
[quote]

Something that's always annoyed me is that they list over 10 different kinds of Asians, but one kind of white. Bleh. Affirmative action is lame. A black kid going to my high school would have the exact same experience I've had, but I bet if he had similar credentials and we both applied somewhere... well, you know.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Do they in fact list over ten different kinds of Asians? It's usually just Asian / Pacific Islander, with the occasional Asian / South Asian / Pacific Islander.</p>

<p>Supporters of affirmative action would argue as follows:</p>

<p>"You don't know how much discrimination that black kid had to go through! You don't know how much pressure he feels in your community! You don't know how many opportunities he's been denied because he's black!"</p>

<p>...and so forth.</p>

74

<p>AdOfficer,</p>

<p>To my recollection, I have not been sufficiently convinced by you that affirmative action in its present form is not racial preferences.</p>

<p>On a different thread, one of your first responses was an agreement that racial preferences are not the only way to solve historical inequities. At that time, you did not state something like, "I agree with you, but there is one thing you should know. Affirmative action is not racial preferences! It is..."</p>

<p>Many posts later, you decided to state that "Affirmative action is not racial preference."</p>

<p>Why the change in definition?</p>

<p>[qutoe]The reason affirmative action in higher education exists is to compensate for the discrimination - both historical and current - that creates inequalities in the opportunities students have in educational attainment because of race.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So, some students don't have as many opportunities as others (inequalities), and this is because of race. And, racial preferences is not how you will compensate for this? Hmm.</p>

75

<p>In response to Quark's point...</p>

<p>I'm a Slav, too, and there aren't any markets, stores, etc...in my area now - nor were there any in my neighborhood when I was growing up...I feel your pain :). I don't see Slavs represented anywhere where I live. </p>

<p>My grandparents came to this country and were treated like dirt because of where they came from...however, one generation later my family was able to go to college, make a middle-class life for themselves, etc...Why? Because, regardless of how the Slavs were treated initially, they are white, like you said. Regardless of your ethnicity, being white affords you a privilege in this country that non-white Americans - no matter what their economic status is - do not have and probably will, at least in our lifetime(s) never have. Sad, not right, but true.</p>

<p>Fabrizio...</p>

<p>I really have been holding off from saying this to you out of respect for your opinions, but I think you need to hear it: When you are older, have graduated high school and college, and have a different perspective on the real world because you've lived in it, worked in it, and experienced the harsh realities of it for some time as an adult, you might think twice about becoming combative with someone with more experience, more education, more insight - and dare I say, some expertise - who disagrees with you. The fact is, you do not know and will never know about the discrimination URM students in this country face unless you yourself are an URM student and have to go through it yourself - perhaps even on a daily basis. I don't know what race you are and, quite frankly, I don't care anymore. But if you are an URM student and haven't experienced racism or discrimination because of the color of your skin, you are excedingly rare and extremely lucky...if you aren't black, Latino, or Asian-American, you need to stop making comments that suggest these populations haven't been discriminated against to the point where their academic achievements have been impeded by the psychological, social, and emotional toll that discrimination and racism take on people because you haven't experienced it yourself and never will. </p>

<p>Your arguments in this post and others concerning URM students are very close-minded and extremely limited because of your limited exposure to this topic, even though you are interested in improving racial disparities in education and society. I applaud your efforts (as I have in other posts) for doing readings about affirmative action, but your continued insistence that affirmative action is only about being politically correct is really, really close-minded. In addition, your insistence that you haven't been convinced by my arguments is getting old. I think you haven't been "convinced" because you don't want to be; I cannot tell you the number of students who have emailed me through CC to tell me how much our (meaning yours and mine) discussions on here have changed their minds about affirmative action...some even did so publicly on other threads. However, my intention is not to convert anyone - it's simply been to dispell a lot of the myths and misconceptions that are being perpetuated by comments made here on CC that ARE NOT BASED ON FACTUAL EVIDENCE but instead based on anecdotes, extremely politicized and biased "research", and personal feelings about what is "fair". </p>

<p>Finally, Fabrizio, I explained to you (and others, obviously) in another thread, explicitly, why affirmative action is not a form of "racial preference" or a quota. Go back and read, carefully, the other threads you have challenged me in - I agreed with you that racial preferences are not the way to make the playing field level - you then, without asking me for clarification, assumed that I equated affirmative action with "racial preference," which I did not do, have never, done, and will not do. Just because you have misinterpreted me (and, for the record, you are the ONLY person that interpreted that particular post in that way that I am aware of) does not mean that I, all of a sudden, changed a definition of something. You continue to bring this subject up and I simply am not interested in arguing with you - it's not why I am on here.</p>

76

<p>I don't advocate a system that claims to "counter" the effects of discrimination by admitting affluent people (yes - most black people attending decent colleges come from backgrounds that would not be considered disadvantaged) of X skin color.</p>

<p>I feel that the system attacks the problem by covering up the numbers, not by digging to the root of the issue, that is, improving the situation of African-Americans trapped in inner city ghettoes, a /real/ remnant of the effects of slavery AND a lasting contribution to perpetuated stereotypes.</p>

<p>As far as discrimination is concerned...what about people who are less attractive physically? Nerds? Gay people? Even short people? I don't buy it that being black would be so much worse.</p>

77

<p>AdOfficer,</p>

<p>I notice a recurring pattern. I express opinions which are against racial preferences. I acknowledge that discrimination occurred and continues to occur. Supporters of affirmative action note the former but totally ignore the latter. Once I say, "I'm against affirmative action," a post like "But, I acknowledge historical and current discrimination" is utterly ignored.</p>

<p>
[quote]

...you need to stop making comments that suggest these populations haven't been discriminated against to the point where their academic achievements have been impeded by the psychological, social, and emotional toll that discrimination and racism take on people because you haven't experienced it yourself and never will.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>When have I ever made comments that even remotely suggested that the lives of "under-represented" minorities are hunky dory? Hmm? Or, did you construe my belief that "under-represented" minorities can succeed as tantamount to "no discrimination occurred, ever!"?</p>

<p>I'm not convinced by your arguments because all you can do is create euphemisms for racial preferences. Be it "level playing field," "compensation," or the almighty ubiquitous "diversity," it's all the same. I applaud your creativity, though. It's tough to keep having to make up new words just because racial preferences is too curt of a phrase.</p>

<p>Here we go with the extremely politicized and biased, gasp, "research." Ouch. Is that the culture that affirmative action fosters? That there can be no dispute about its merits and shortcomings? That all research which shows that racial preferences do more harm than good is "biased" and has an "agenda?" Hilarious. And, what's research that shows that racial preferences benefit society? Not politicized? Not biased? I daresay it's impossible NOT to have a tint of either in affirmative action research.</p>

<p>Of course your purpose here is not to discuss affirmative action with me. That goes without saying.</p>

<p>Is it really that hard for you people to accept the following:</p>

<p>The state, local governments, districts, public universities, colleges, and schools, and other government instrumentalities should not discriminate against or give preferential treatment to any individual or group in public employment, public education, or public contracting on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin.</p>

<p>I mean, really, is it that hard? I don't think so. But, then again, I'm not a redemptive liberal. People in our nation have a right to be treated equally. They don't have a right to be treated preferentially.</p>

78

<p>[10 chars]</p>

79

<p>As I said before, Acere would be perfectly right to fill in the Spanish American box (it even spells out Cuban) if he is applying for UC. In any case if he feels he is identified with the Hispanic culture, he certainly has his right. I was looking at #60 and decided to google black Hispanic, and I happen to find an interesting article. </p>

<p><a href="http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=524a919cf3f2101954cff10de9f11e96%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=524a919cf3f2101954cff10de9f11e96&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>According the the article many West Indies black Hispanic prefer to be identified with the Hispanic culture more than their black skin color (which may or may not be true). But the interesting things about the article is the comments that follow it. They are all over the map with both for and against, a real diversity of opinion. It shows that our society is now so multiple ethnic/cultural that the old pigeon holes no longer fit.</p>

<p>Actually why would the ethnic box matters at all. If the old days certain race would get certain bonus point. This is now illegal and supposed to be not practiced anymore. The adcoms are supposed to look at each person as an individual and judged if he would really contributed to diversity, as we are told. The applicant can still be judged even if he leaves it empty. So the ethnic box is really irreverent.</p>

80

<p>groovinhard...</p>

<p>love that name, by the way...i agree with you that affluent students of color <em>probably</em> have some different experiences that poorer members of the same race do. however, many affluent students of color are attending predominantly white schools - in elementary, middle, and high school and are very much experiencing discrimination - though usually its rather hush-hush in more affluent neighborhoods and schools. </p>

<p>your assumption that most black students who attend "decent" institutions are not what would be considered disadvantaged is not totally accurate, but many black students who attend elite institutions are doing fine economically. however, most schools who have the means financially and are actively practicing affirmative action policies are recruiting low-income students - of all races - rather aggressively nowadays. </p>

<p>As far as your last comment is concerned...um, unattractive people, nerds, and short people have not, at least to my recollection, been enslaved or systematically and historically discriminated against for housing, jobs, education, social services, etc..,. Being bullied by someone because you're a nerd or being made fun of because you're short is quite different than being hated and judged because of the color of your skin. As for homosexual individuals, well, that's clearly something we need to work on...but no one has been enslaved in this country because of their sexuality...systematic poverty cannot be traced to homophobia, either. </p>

<p>Fabrizio...I've repeatedly acknowledged the fact that you are interested in improving the disparities that exist socially between races in my posts that are responses to yours. No one is saying you are racist or discriminatory. However, many of your posts suggest that affirmative action is a form of racial preference, and it is not - affirmative action policies do not place a premium on individuals of one race over another; in admissions, we do not prefer the perspective of one race of student over another...on the contrary, we are trying to create a community of learners who have different perspectives on a variety of subjects, academic disciplines, life experiences, literature, social institutions, etc...,. </p>

<p>As I mentioned before in another post, I think you are looking at this from a very personal, micro-level point of view - this does not assume that you think the lives of URM students is honky dory - but this point of view does flavor your opinion that affirmative action is racial preferencing, which is discrimination, and not affirmative action. Your comments suggest we do not need a policy to compensate for past and current discrimination today, which ignores the fact that past and current discrimination is very real for millions of students and is a very real problem. </p>

<p>is affirmative action perfect? no, but it's the best tool we have to improve the situation. if we are practicing "racial preferences," well then, I guess white kids are actually benefitting, since they are overwhelmingly predominant in elite colleges and universities. and considering the vast majority of faculty members in this country are white men, i guess we are preferring them, too, in our hiring practices. and considering black students don't even come close to being equally represented in our colleges and universities when compared to their representation in the American population, i guess we are actually NOT preferring them. oh, and same with hispanic students. and southeast asian-american students.</p>

<p>bomgeedad...again, culture and race, two different things...california's definitions are their own, btw...</p>