<p>
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So then you support the use of race in assigning people to schools in K-12 education?
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</p>
<p>Good god no! I hope the Supreme Court will definitively rule against this.</p>
<p>Also, how do you adjust for the negative impacts of discrimination without looking at race?</p>
<p>You implement policies which discriminate neither for nor against. You ensure equal treatment and fair review.</p>
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Good god no! I hope the Supreme Court will definitively rule against this.
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<p>So you think its not too late to save 5 year olds.... but don't want to because of some strange ideal you have. Hmm, ok.</p>
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You implement policies which discriminate neither for nor against. You ensure equal treatment and fair review.
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</p>
<p>How does that adjust for anything? For instance, colleges do look more favorably on an applicant with only 4 APs if they school only offers four. It means they challenged themselves by taking the hardest courses possible. Versus an applicant who took the same 4 APs, at a school that offers nearly 20. That applicant hadn't challenged themselves as much as they could have. Rather than just looking at raw numbers (i.e. treating both applicants equally because they have the same number of APs), the college adjusts and discriminates for the applicant who challenged themselves more.</p>
<p>Just like a black applicant with theoretically equal everything to the white applicant is probably more qualified as they were challenged more.</p>
<p>That wasn't as articulate as I could have been, but I think I got my point across.</p>
<p>I don't know what this thread has devolved into, but the OP makes me sick. He doesn't even know what country his grandfather is from.</p>
<p>"Um, he's Pakistani or Iraqi or something"</p>
<p>Those aren't even the same ethnicity. The OP can't identify with a culture he can't define. OP is probably some under-qualified spoiled WASP and I hope he's rejected for being a dick.</p>
<p>I think if you are a Sephardi (Spanish origin) Israeli whose family went on to join the historical stream of Iraqi Jews who were oppressed in Iraq l00 years ago so migrated to Israel, and then your family came here for whatever reason... you would be able to write a great essay about YOU.
You could contribute to a college community because you bring a unique viewpoint. You are different than most American Jews who are Ashkenazim (Western, meaning: European or Russian descent). You have an Hispanic past even it's from around 1492 so that might be interesting to modern American students of Hispanic backgrounds. You have a recent link to Iraq, where Americans are engaged in a crucial decision on what to do next. You know stuff about Israel.
Just be yourself. Check off "Other" on your application, and if you really want to, write in "Semitic: Sephardi Israeli" but don't check off African-American.</p>
<p>And Ryan, you had no right to call the OP anything negative. He said that OTHERS ask him about his ethnicity and THEY get it mixed up. He knows exactly who he is, and I assure you he's not a WASP.</p>
<p>Fine, he has a clearly defined Jewish heritage and should not be attempting to make himself African-American because he has a grandfather that is from "Um pakistan or iraq"</p>
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So you think its not too late to save 5 year olds.... but don't want to because of some strange ideal you have. Hmm, ok.
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</p>
<p>If by "save" you mean "expose," then yes, absolutely - it is never too late to expose five year olds to different cultures.</p>
<p>A good way to do it? Foreign language education. Australia does a good job with this, in my opinion. You don't learn MUCH of a language in the early years, but you are definitely exposed to different cultures and taught to respect differences.</p>
<p>My high school peers often ridicule foreign languages as "sounding weird." When I correct mispronunciations of my last name, I often hear, "That's not how it's spelled."</p>
<p>What do these comments indicate? Lack of understanding that U.S. culture isn't the only culture around.</p>
<p>Strange ideal? OK, I guess Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s belief that we should judge by character and not skin color has really faded into the background amidst rallying cries of "diversity" and "inclusion." Which is sad, really.</p>
<p>According to you, it adjusts for explicit discrimination. Come on!</p>
<p>There's no problem with colleges "adjusting" and "discriminating" for the applicant who challenged himself more. You want to know why? Because it is not his race, color, creed, religion, national origin, or ethnic affiliation that was being "adjusted / discriminated." It was his merits.</p>
<p>I don't really understand your penultimate paragraph.</p>
<p>To bad for you that Martin Luther King supported Affirmative Action.</p>
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To bad for you that Martin Luther King supported Affirmative Action.
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</p>
<p>And your point is?</p>
<p>I have a question here pertaining to a dear friend's son. The parents are both Native American, born and raised on the reservation. The son was born there as well but they all moved to New York when he was about 11-ish for educational opportunities for the mom. By the time she finished her degree, the kids were settled in good high schools and in the community, so the family ultimately decided to stay here and let both kids finish high schools. Grandparents are still on the reservation, aunts, uncles, etc. There is no ambiguity as to their ethnicity. The son is starting to get serious about what his college app will look like next year. He is on soccer, debate, usual stuff. A nice, well-rounded boy who's not a superstar in anything but does quite well and is a lovely person. When an admissions person sees his application, he will look like a typical middle-class NYC kid with a typical NYC address. His father was trying to explain to him that he has to find some way to address his ethnicity in his application package and the son is outraged because he wants to us his essays to talk about himself, who he is, what he dreams of, and not have admissions people see him as "the NA kid." So if committees are looking for evidence of his background, it won't be completely apparent, but he and his parents have overcome serious odds to get him ready for college. Is it really necessary that he address this in his essays and stuff? Is there any other way to prove his ethnicity without making his application all about that?</p>
<p>zooser,</p>
<p>Many undergrad admissions processes are borrowing a page from the law school admissions when it comes to diversity. At some places, it is not simply enough to check the box but to also show your color. Many colleges do want to know what what you had hoped to convey by checking the box.</p>
<p>for example: on the LSAC website, they state:</p>
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</p>
<p>"In your personal statement, you need to tell us what you had hoped to convey by checking that box," says Sharon L. Pinkney, director of admissions, University of California, Davis, School of Law. "In the past, I think applicants may have tended to check off a racial classification and assume that certain information was conveyed to us. Now, you have to tell us."</p>
<p>Admission professionals concur that your application should tell the story of who you are, including the background and experiences—both personal and educational—that make you unique.</p>
<p>"It’s important to let us know what different voice you will bring to the classroom, what disadvantages you may have overcome, what experiences have shaped your perspective," suggests deJorna. "Give us an idea of how you look at the law and how your notions of justice were formed."</p>
<p>As you complete your application, remember the importance of such things as:</p>
<p>the organizations and affiliations you list: they provide strong insight into what is important to you and the causes or issues to which you have chosen to devote your time;</p>
<p>the context in which your undergraduate degree was earned: did you have work or family responsibilities in addition to school? If so, how has juggling various commitments shaped your ability to be organized? (Do not overlook the fact that juggling various tasks is a necessary skill for lawyers.)</p>
<p>any special connection you have to your potential client population: Do you speak a language other than English? Have you demonstrated an ability to communicate with the poor, with recent immigrants, or with inner-city residents?
These strategies are generally useful regardless of your racial or ethnic background, but they become increasingly important as affirmative action comes under heavy attack. Through your application, you should seek to set yourself apart. To do that you must provide all relevant information about what you can bring to the law school experience.</p>
<p>
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</p>
<p>I remember that Michelle Hernandez (A is for admissions) addressed the same topic on one of the parent forum threads where she states:</p>
<p>
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As for the URM, interestedad pretty much has it right -- you should get some URM help, but not as much as you might if you came from the ghetto etc.. In effect, as **I mention in the book, the conversation comes up, "how red is your tag" or "how black." In other words, how culturally black are you or how culturally Native american are you? **Given two native american students, one who lives on a reservation and has many cultural ties and one who went to prep school who claims a 1/4 or 1/8 tie but has no activities related to being native american, the first student wins! Of course if it's a low year for minority admissions, they may reach out to more
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Is it really necessary that he address this in his essays and stuff? Is there any other way to prove his ethnicity without making his application all about that?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think it is necessary to talk about his native american roots because 11 years growing up on the reservation has helped to shape him into the person he is today and is part of his frame of reference and a lens to how he views the world.</p>
<p>While taking a break from reading files last night (seriously, there are so many awesome applicants...i don't want to deny you!!!) I had a really cool conversation with a friend of mine who is Spanish. Her parents refused to allow her older brothers to learn Spanish because they didn't want them to be seen as "Hispanics" or "Latinos"...okay, I was disgusted by this. But my friend is fluent is Spanish (she learned it unbeknownst to her parents), employs a ton of Chicano women in her business (she's a fashion designer), and has recently come to really identify with a lot of them. She told me she identifies as Latina culturally, but that she is white...I told her about the conversation we have all been having on here, and she got really excited about it and is coming to my college to speak! I guess this shows how big of a nerd I am, but I'm really excited that people are thinking about this stuff seriously besides us! </p>
<p>My point is, similar to Acere's, that some people identify as, say, Hispanic, culturally...and do not racially. However, the question of race is asked on the Common Application and other college apps because we do try and understand everything that has effected a student's academic achievement and we know the racism and/or discrimination based on race happens a lot in our high schools. Does it affect everyone who is a person of color? No...but we are smart enough to know when to use affirmative action and when not to...and to what extent. </p>
<p>I think that, ideally, Fabrizio is on the right track...we should try and implement policies where everyone is looked at in the same way. The problem is, this is an ideal and unfortunately not a reality...until racism and discrimination based on race are eradicated, we just can't ignore the psychological and social effects of race on academic achievement. I have seen students of color who, yes, have had lower-than-average SAT scores and grades come to my institution and thrive - more so than most students here - because they were finally in an environment where they did have all the tools to succeed...it is truly powerful to witness and serves as a constant reminder of why affirmative action is necessary for some students.</p>
<p>Sometimes checkboxes aren't good enough. D is 1/8 hispanic and 1/8 pacific islander but looks white and grew up in a middle class suburb. She checked "other" and said "see attached". She then wrote a short paragraph describing her ethnicity just as many of the posts in this thread. Full disclosure, let the admissions folks do with it as they may.</p>
<p>I have been following this thread and Acere is right. Glad you are re-thinking your position on 'Hispanics' AdOffice. rhumbob summed it up well also. Hispanic is an ethnicity not a racial designation. There are black hispanics and white hispanics and some that are mixed. I know that here most people assume that you are not hispanic unless you look Mexican but that usually just means that there is Indian background. </p>
<p>I am half hispanic. My father is 100% Spanish, spanish speaking, culture etc. By definition on the census we are designated hispanic. Also, by the college board definition my kids check the hispanic box. (They also have a hispanic grandma from Argentina but all they need to designate is 1/4 so my father alone qualifies them.) We contacted the college board and they said to check hispanic because we are white hispanic and no one is interested in the white part. We have three kids that look very hispanic (although light-skinned) and two that do not. </p>
<p>Most people really just do not understand what hispanic is-like Acere said. Our oldest is in college and on her apps she just put down what she is...white AND hispanic. Often there were boxes that said hispanic/other or they would list Spanish, South American, etc. If not she would just write it in. If asked she would talk about her ethnic/cultural ties. What is dishonest about disclosing your situation and letting the college decide what to do with it? After all, THEY ask the question!</p>
<p>In America, if you do not look white, then you are considered a minority. And since people can visually judge you as being a minority, then this identification as "other" has probably effected your life one way or another.</p>
<p>Even if you look white, but speak English with an accent (or are not proficient in English because you were not schooled here), you will also be judged as a minority by our mainstream white, English speaking society.</p>
<p>The judgement that people make can be good or bad. They can effect you in a positive or negative way. But because your minority status is so apparent (either by your skin color or language), people will know it immediately.</p>
<p>When it comes to ethnicity within the white community, obviously there are distinctions and people might very well be able to guess that your ethnic background is Swedish vs. Italian. But since there is so much intermarriage among whites, few people's lineages in America are purely based on one nationality. And we are starting with the assumption that the umbrella under which all whites fall is still the majority in America.</p>
<p>So my point is this...if we belierve in the basic assumption that people who are considered minorities in America should continue to have additional help in order to achieve the same educational/ work status as the white majority, then minority status should only apply to people who have a non-white appearance and those who are first-generation English speakers who have not gained proficiency in the language because they came to America when they were older. </p>
<p>If your parents or grandparents came from a foreign country, but you yourself are white and you were raised and educated in America...then no minority status for you!</p>
<p>In short, I don't think the question is whether you identify with a particular minority group. I think the question is...do people readily identify you as a member of minority group?</p>
<p>With that in mind, I think college applications should ask people to identify their race/skin color and whether they are native English speakers. If they are white, but not native born, they should be asked how many years they attended school in America. And a cut-off should be determined. If you came to America in the early elementary grades, more than likely you
will have become a native-sounding Enlish speaker by the time you graduate high school. So a white Hispanic, Greek etc. would not qualify as a minority if they were schooled in America for many years. </p>
<p>(Of course, this probably leads to a discussion about bilingual education but I guess that can be left to another thread...)</p>
<p>How different schools will use this racial/ language information will vary from school to school. Just as it does now. If let's say MIT has a majority of white and Asian students, then minority status as an Asian will probably not make much difference to MIT. But it may to a school in Wyoming...</p>
<p>Do it. Today, I got a 10,k scholarship for being Part Asian(Although I look white...Brown hair and white features. Think Keanu Reaves(sp) asian)</p>
<p>AdOfficer,</p>
<p>I recognize that there is a problem and that the solution to this problem is not easy to implement.</p>
<p>I believe that it is possible to acknowledge the existence of racism and discrimination without resorting to preferential treatment.</p>
<p>In A Dream Deferred, Dr. Steele pointed out three steps universities would have to take to improve the performance of black college students, as follows:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Refuse to defer to the victim-focused black identity (without denying historical victimization) that alienates and demoralizes young people who have experienced very little racial victimization, and that weakens their connection to the principles that high performance requires.</p></li>
<li><p>Not grant the license of a preference that denies black students the competition with whites and Asians that excellence absolutely requires.</p></li>
<li><p>Not demonize the very principles - rigorous intellectual effort, skill mastery, grade and test performance - by which those who compete with black students are strengthened.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Some users here truly believe that affirmative action should be performed in the mindset of reparations for slavery and segregation. It is an absolute fact that both slavery and segregation were abhorrent. This fact should not be ignored. At the same time, this fact should not be abused to argue for reverse discrimination.</p>
<p>Many of those users also believe that if racial preferences were removed, then the sheer number of qualified White and Asian applicants would make it "statistically impossible" for a qualified Black student to get through. Yet, the only way for students to get stronger is to compete with the best. Restricted competition may make you feel better now, but you won't feel as good later when you're forced to step up.</p>
<p>Several of these same users deride standardized tests as "rote learning" and an "impediment to creativity." That may be true. In any case, the students who are doing these "negative activities" are making one of the factors for admission more attractive. That only helps.</p>
<p>Germans and Italians and other Europeans who moved to places like Argentiana and Costa Rica are somehow considered Hispanic, even if they are completely white, right? Then why aren't whites from South Africa considered African? This whole thing is so hosed up and convoluted that liberals should be ashamed of themselves for demanding that it continue.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Germans and Italians and other Europeans who moved to places like Argentiana and Costa Rica are somehow considered Hispanic, even if they are completely white, right? Then why aren't whites from South Africa considered African? This whole thing is so hosed up and convoluted that liberals should be ashamed of themselves for demanding that it continue.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Simply put: Hispanic is not a race, it is an ethnicity and culture. There are racially white Hispanics, racially black Hispanic, and racially mixed Hispanics who are united into a culture. </p>
<p>Likewise, Afrikaners of S. Africa (there are other white groups in Africa, BTW), form their own culture, and arguably and ethnic group. Should they be considered an ethnic group like Hispanic? I don't know. I don't really care, because nothing I can (or will) do will change the situation. </p>
<p>However, African is a race of black people, as is defined in the census. That is why Afrikaners wouldn't be African. (And frankly, last time white people tried to claim to be African, it, well, kinda sucked for everyone involved.)</p>
<p>Much of the content in threads relating to minority status makes it seem that U's are mainly "targeting" or "preferring" minorities, and also that minority status is the only reason for acceptance "over" a student with higher GPA and/or higher scores. But U's & colleges have a variety of interests & goals in admission. One of those is geographical diversity; another is revenue. Therefore, when a top school receives an application from an International, that U often "relaxes standards" to admit such an applicant. Thus, in the Early Round this very cycle, Columbia "preferred" an Asian Korean with a 3.3 and an Asian Canadian with a 3.1.</p>
<p>Funny how that works.</p>
<p>Oh, wait: we need to tell Columbia to "not grant the license of a preference." Wait until those Internationals demonstrate "rigorous intellectual effort, skill mastery, and grade performance."</p>