<p>"However, African is a race of black people, as is defined in the census. That is why Afrikaners wouldn't be African. (And frankly, last time white people tried to claim to be African, it, well, kinda sucked for everyone involved.)"</p>
<p>This is nitpick, but the paragraph should be rewritten as:</p>
<p>"However, African-American is a race of black people, as is defined in the census. That is why Afrikaners wouldn't be African-American. (And frankly, last time white people tried to claim to be African, it, well, kinda sucked for everyone involved.)"</p>
<p>Whether Afrikaners are African is for the government of South Africa to decide.</p>
<p>A lot of these posts seem rediculous, how dare you disrespect other races by sun tanning and saying your hispanic, thats wrong. I guess one real measure to know if you are a minority is to ask yourself "Have I been discriminated against based on the reasons I feel I'm a minority?" If not I'd say you aren't a minority, and to use it to boost your chances of getting into college is morrally wrong.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Much of the content in threads relating to minority status makes it seem that U's are mainly "targeting" or "preferring" minorities, and also that minority status is the only reason for acceptance "over" a student with higher GPA and/or higher scores. But U's & colleges have a variety of interests & goals in admission. One of those is geographical diversity; another is revenue. Therefore, when a top school receives an application from an International, that U often "relaxes standards" to admit such an applicant. Thus, in the Early Round this very cycle, Columbia "preferred" an Asian Korean with a 3.3 and an Asian Canadian with a 3.1.
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</p>
<p>Everyone here agrees that no one should be discriminated against because of his color, creed, ethnicity, national origin, race, or religion. However, not everyone agrees that no one should be discriminated for based on these same factors.</p>
<p>Witness the severe reluctance of many parents to agree to the following:</p>
<p>''The state shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group, on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting."</p>
<p>epiphany, those suggestions from Dr. Steele are for Black American college students, not international students.</p>
<p>
[quote]
A lot of these posts seem rediculous, how dare you disrespect other races by sun tanning and saying your hispanic, thats wrong. I guess one real measure to know if you are a minority is to ask yourself "Have I been discriminated against based on the reasons I feel I'm a minority?" If not I'd say you aren't a minority, and to use it to boost your chances of getting into college is morrally wrong.
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<p>Has anyone here tried to do that?</p>
<p>It's mostly stuff like, "I just found out that my grandfather is Portuguese. Do I count as a Hispanic?"</p>
<p>Or, "My mother is from Peru, but her parents emigrated there from Poland. Can I claim to be Hispanic?"</p>
<p>fabrizio, college admissions AA is not dependent on Shelby Steele's comments or beliefs or your private perceptions. I was responding to you, not Shelby Steele. He's not a poster here. Stop diverting the discussion. YOU, not Shelby Steele, have come on this board repeatedly to criticize acceptances of students who are "not competitive." So it's O.K. if 2 International Asians get accepted with a 3.1 and 3.3? But not o.k. if an African-American living in this country gets accepted with a similar GPA?</p>
<p>Admissions, including diversity in admissions, is not only driven by AA. That's another misconception you have. You rail away at URM's supposedly not showing "excellence," yet there are a variety of admissions priorities which have nothing specifically to do with race per se, and those priorities sometimes even overshadow the factor of race, supercede it, etc. There's Affirmative Action for the Rich and Mainly White, called donors. There's Affirmative Action for athletes, who come from many races & nationalities, INCLUDING East Asians who are US residents & including whites.</p>
<p>Admissions is partly driven by pragmatics. Two of the most important elements of pragmatics are revenue and The Competition. Colleges routinely make "defensive" decisions, relative to predictions & trends regarding their most competitive, similar peers. Similarly, they make decisions based on revenue needs. Thus, Internationals are often admitted with a wink, wink.</p>
<p>epiphany,</p>
<p>Of course affirmative action in college admissions isn't dependent on Dr. Steele's suggestions or my personal beliefs. If it were, then the world would be a better place. :)</p>
<p>Dr. Steele is not a poster here. I simply believe that much of what he writes with respect to affirmative action is true. I am not diverting the discussion by pointing out that his suggestions were meant for Black American students. The word "international" isn't even on that page, if I remember correctly.</p>
<p>Yes, I do criticize acceptances of students who are "not competitive." I think you and I both know that it's easier for a rich man to enter heaven than it is for American Whites and Asians with the scores of some "under-represented" minorities to be admitted.</p>
<p>As far as your story about the two international students goes, hey - you've told me their GPAs and nothing else. I don't know anything about their essays, their extracurriculars, their standardized test scores, and so forth. For all I know, they could have come from brutally competitive secondary schools where a 3.4 is considered godlike.</p>
<p>In fact, why does the ethnicity of these two students matter? They're INTERNATIONAL students. End of story.</p>
<p>"That's another misconception you have. You rail away at URM's supposedly not showing "excellence," yet there are a variety of admissions priorities which have nothing specifically to do with race per se, and those priorities sometimes even overshadow the factor of race, supercede it, etc. There's Affirmative Action for the Rich and Mainly White, called donors. There's Affirmative Action for athletes, who come from many races & nationalities, INCLUDING East Asians who are US residents & including whites."</p>
<p>So true, so true. I completely agree with this. I don't even think URMs get preferences based on their race.. colleges just understand that they may have come from underprivileged backgrounds and thus slightly relax their policies to admit them. Most of these URMs are competent, intelligent students that can actually prosper in these intense environments. A college and/or university would not admit someone they did not honestly believe could not perform well in their school. They might deny people who actually are, in fact qualified, but in my opinion, I don't think that they would accept someone who was not qualified. It's a tough decision and Admission Officers have a lot to consider when looking at an applicant. Their background, their disadvantages and the obstacles they need to overcome is just one of those things on their minds. </p>
<p>Not to sound anti-rich (even if I am, slightly, but in a most lighthearted manner), but if rich people can get in with daddy paying big bucks to a university, then what's the big deal with people ranting about AA? I hear less people ranting about donations to a university than race, when donations can be controlled (someone could just choose not to donate) while race can't. Even if you dislike it that someone with lower stats got into a school, is it really their fault? They can't change their race. It's annoying when people bash on others for things they can't necessarily control. Rich people can simply not donate money to schools, but URMs can never change their race.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't even think URMs get preferences based on their race.. colleges just understand that they may have come from underprivileged backgrounds and thus slightly relax their policies to admit them.
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<p>How is that not preferential treatment?</p>
<p>Prior to visiting CC, I was very, very anti-AA. I read a lot of the posts by AdOfficer and others and I realized that while I wasn't gung-ho about AA, I didn't mind it. I don't think competent students should even worry. Tons of students get rejected from their top choices, and more of it has to do with too many people applying than can get admitted. It's clear that if you have about 15,000 students applying and you can only admit 2,000 that a lot of qualified applicants will be rejected.</p>
<p>Because it's NOT based entirely on race. It has more to do with college admission officers realizing, "Hey, this kid may have come from a disadvantaged background and made the best of what he/she could with what he/she had." Some students are more advantaged than others in the process -- expensive college counselors, high admit rates based on school, more AP classes offered, etc. A lot of URMs might not have that. At my school, there are a lot of URMs admitted (it's a selective high school) and it is NOT because of their race. It is because they did the best they could in their poor, neighborhood schools and my school recognized that. It makes more sense to put people into context, rather than splaying them all right next to each other and pretending that all of them had the same opportunities, because it simply isn't true. That's what college admission officers are trying to understand. Granted, AA might not be the best way to go about it, but I honestly don't care. I'm a good student and will get accepted lots of places. I realize universities have way too many applicants and know that I might be rejected.</p>
<p>And Fabrizio, you completely ignored my argument about people getting preference based on their ability to donate to the school.</p>
<p>"As far as your story about the two international students goes, hey - you've told me their GPAs and nothing else. I don't know anything about their essays, their extracurriculars, their standardized test scores, and so forth."</p>
<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=271838&page=15%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=271838&page=15</a></p>
<p>Posts 213, 221</p>
<p>"In fact, why does the ethnicity of these two students matter? They're INTERNATIONAL students. End of story."</p>
<p>I see. It's fine to have a different standard for an international, to "give them a break," shall we say. You are the one who has argued for consistency & high standards. Yet when confronted with other special categories (other than race), you make every excuse in the book: (Sure, geographical diversity is fine, economic circumstances, fine, athletics, fine.) In fact, it's very possible that the Black immigrants you so object to being accepted may have higher stats at whatever schools they were admitted to than the 2 above internationals. (But of course, these two are Asian, so it's fine.)</p>
<p>Wow, epiphany, you seriously rock.</p>
<p>It's clear that if you have about 15,000 students applying and you can only admit 2,000 that a lot of qualified applicants will be rejected.</p>
<p>That's expected, fair, and fine. It becomes an issue when people are admitted or rejected because of skin color.</p>
<p>Murkywater, the paragraph I quoted is highly contradictory. You can choose to ignore that if you like.</p>
<p>Now, since you requested it, my opinion on legacy admits is as follows:</p>
<p>I don't mind them, and in fact, they could actually benefit the university. You could have a renovated building, a new building, an endowed professorship, and so forth. Real, tangible benefits.</p>
<p>What about "diversity"? Any serious, nonbiased, nonpoliticized research to show its benefits? I don't think so.</p>
<p>epiphany,</p>
<p>Aren't you the one who frequently claims that I "misunderstand" affirmative action? Aren't you the one who resorts to stating the obvious (i.e. my opinions don't affect affirmative action in college admissions)? Aren't you one of the many who get squirmish when you are forced to confront the existence of racial preferences?</p>
<p>Thought so.</p>
<p>Anyway...</p>
<p>For all I know, those two international students were given a "hOliStiC" review and were judged to be equal or greater than other students based on their life histories, best they could have done given their circumstances, and so forth.</p>
<p>At the same time, for all I know, a 3.1 GPA could be the "best" at that secondary school. In fact, in that country, a 3.5 could be seen as otherwordly. Do I know? Sure don't.</p>
<p>The more I think about it, the stupider the term "diversity" becomes. It's such a crock. If you want to pursue that goal, geographic location is fine. Economic circumstances are fine. Athletics are definitely fine. Race is not. You want to know why? Because then people can claim, "My great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grand-uncle once spent a night in Portugal! I'm Hispanic!" It's easier claiming that than it is to claim to be poor.</p>
<p>I do not object to Black immigrants and children of Black immigrants being accepted, thank you very much. I object to their receiving preferential treatment, even though they are like me (i.e. parents born in another continent).</p>
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...<a href="But%20of%20course,%20these%20two%20are%20Asian,%20so%20it's%20fine.">b</a>**
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<p>I anticipated such a response, which is why I said - INTERNATIONAL, ethnicity does NOT matter, end of story.</p>
<p>Why do people this that race is defined by skin color? It's by where your ancesters lived, that doesn't mean they had the skin color of the majority there.</p>
<p>Look at Michael Jackson. He's white, but he's still African America.</p>
<p>Bad example, I know.</p>
<p>I'm Jewish and have been discriminated against my whole life. I don't get to fill in a bubble.</p>
<p>EDIT: I don't know where my quote went.</p>
<p>"A lot of these posts seem rediculous, how dare you disrespect other races by sun tanning and saying your hispanic, thats wrong. I guess one real measure to know if you are a minority is to ask yourself "Have I been discriminated against based on the reasons I feel I'm a minority?" If not I'd say you aren't a minority, and to use it to boost your chances of getting into college is morrally wrong."</p>
<p>How can people on this forum believe that the background of American Blacks is the same as people who are descended from recent emigrants from African countries? Thats completely insane. The whole reason why there are reparations and AA and all kinds of stuff like that is because American Blacks have been put down, enslaved, and then in the second half of the 19th to the 20th century viciously dehumanized and discriminated against all across North and South America for hundreds of years until after the 1960s. Students who come from recent emigrant families from Africa do not share the same background, and hopefully they never will. Barack Obama, as I said to another poster, is NOT an American Black, and yes, I agree that African-American is a very confusing, and frankly incorrect term. Black people have no history in Africa really anymore, that has all been taken away. Their history now starts in the Americas, and this is what defines the Black person's American experience. We wish we knew what our African heritage is, where we originally came from, but it is more likely than not that this will never be known. </p>
<p>Please, ethnicity or "race" is not to be used as a loophole. This is something that people deal with from birth throughout their lives, and until Americans can get over the fact that people and their experiences matter more than labels, racism will never die.</p>
<p>
[quote]
best they could have done given their circumstances
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</p>
<p>One of those circumstances in the prejudice they have experienced due to their race.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm Jewish and have been discriminated against my whole life. I don't get to fill in a bubble.
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<p>If you are an ashkenazic Jew, like most Jews in America (and like myself), then regardless of your background you are a benificiary of white privilege. Walking down the street, people aren't going to make a lot of the snap judgements about you as they do with African-Americans and Latinos.</p>
<p>Agreed, toykorevelation9, but recent black immigrants experience the same kind of prejudice from non-blacks that the descendants of slaves experience - just because of the color of their skin and the assumptions made by prejudiced individuals.</p>
<p>The two groups cannot be entirely equated, however, because the more recent/voluntary African immigrants have a definite heritage and a culture that better enables success.</p>
<p>Groups discriminated against: the short, the stupid, the albino, the very tall, the heavy, the ugly, the bald, the amputees, the klutzy, the sweaty, the hairy backed. Let's lower the standards for them too!!</p>
<p>To Just_Browsing - In America's suburbo-metropolitan regions, you might be correct, but everywhere else, believe me, ignorance and discrimination against Jews and practitioners of other non-Christian religions is commonplace. Don't delude yourself. </p>
<p>I also agree with momwaiting that 2nd generation Africans in the US do sometimes see discrimination as well, but often times their parents were the best of the best in their fields in Africa, and usually had the opportunity to work and live in stable and accepting communities in the US. The same opportunities are often true for Black professionals, however but there aren't nearly as many working class Africans as there are American Blacks. Poorer Africans wouldn't be able to emigrate to the US in the first place. Thus, the average difference is socioeconomic status is clear.</p>