Am I nuts or what?

Parents Forum
1

<p>I teach at a large urban university in the Northeast, and part of my compensation is tuition remission. This school is a decent private university rated just inside the US News and World Report Top 100. My son graduated from there a year ago, but he was not a particularly motivated student, either in high school or college. The main thing is that he is out and making his way with no student debt.</p>

<p>My daughter is another story. Halfway through 11th grade with a 3.9 GPA, lots of AP classes in the #3 public high school in our state. Super creative. She has two blogs, one being a literary blog with well over a hundred followers. She wants to be a writer and my uni is not a liberal arts school, has an "okay" Arts and Sciences college, and no Writing major. There is an Honors college with a "roll your own" major option. My wife and I can afford to pay what it will cost to send her to my school, which is 15K per year above and beyond the free tuition.</p>

<p>There is a small chance that I could qualify for Tuition Exchange, which is done by seniority at my school. If I get it, I will receive 31.5K towards tuition. If my wife and I pony up our 15K, that means that we can only afford schools that cost a total of 47K unless we or my daughter take out loans. I've looked at a lot of the private schools on Tuition Exchange, and most of them cost at least 55K all in, meaning that there would be at least 35K owed at the end of the trail</p>

<p>My wife and I were struggling artists for most of our lives and came to teaching late. We are older parents. We don't have a lot of money, and taking out loans would kill any chance we'd have to retire before 75. I also don't think it's healthy for someone who wants to be a writer to have 40K in student loans hanging over her head while she's trying to make it.</p>

<p>I think that a smart, motivated kid like mine is better off going to my school, finding the other smart, creative kids, doing Honors college, joining the literary magazine, working her ass off, and making the most of the opportunity that a debt-free education will allow so that she can graduate and spend a few years working low end jobs or doing whatever she needs to do to find herself as a writer rather than having to pay off a big pile of student debt by taking the first well-paying job that she finds and abandoning her dream.</p>

<p>Am I nuts or what?</p>

2

<p>First, NO, you are NOT nuts to want her to graduate debt-free. On the contrary.</p>

<p>Second, what are her thoughts?</p>

<p>My impression is that, even in high school, she’s finding ways to exercise her creativity, express herself, do what she loves. She sounds like a “path less taken” type. Given that, don’t you think she’d find her path, both during college and after, regardless of where she gets her education? If so, she might as well take advantage of the debt-free opportunity.</p>

3

<p>I don’t think you’re nuts, but I do think it matters how big a gap in quality there is between your school and the best schools she has a shot of getting into. She might also be able to find good merit aid at other schools that would fit her interests better.</p>

<p>And, as I often mention, people will borrow 40K to buy a car. Debt isn’t some kind of disease–it obviously has to be carefully considered and managed, but it may make sense for a lot of people to incur some debt for a better education.</p>

4

<p>A difference between car debt and student debt is that typically one can extinguish all or most of car debt by selling the car. Student loan debt is not so readily dischargeable. </p>

<p>I agree that D would be wise to come to her college decision at the end of a search process rather than at the beginning of one.</p>

5

<p>And with her grades she may qualify for scholarships or she can work, the gap is not that huge</p>

6

<p>I think it’s clear that the school where you teach is not optimally suited for your daughter. But the financial argument in its favor is impressive.</p>

<p>Perhaps that school should be her safety school – both academically and financially. And she should investigate all of the other options that a student of her caliber would pursue if she didn’t have the tuition reimbursement option: need-based aid, schools known for giving out merit scholarship money, schools within your state system, etc.</p>

<p>Also, remember that she aspires to be a writer, not an actress. Her dream is not one that has to be pursued full-time, immediately after graduation, for her to be successful. Taking a well-paying full-time job to pay off loans – especially a job that involves writing or editing – would be a good experience and does not mean giving up her dream. It just means postponing it for a few years.</p>

7

<p>Agree that she may end up with some merit scholarships that help offset the cost. Don’t know which colleges are in the tuition exchange, of course. And it sounds like it is possible you won’t qualify. So you could set some boundaries around it that way. The might be:</p>

<ol>
<li> You will try to qualify for the tuition exchange</li>
<li> Here is how much per year you can put into her education</li>
<li> Maybe ask her to limit how much debt she takes out (shoot for no more than $20K)</li>
</ol>

<p>And if you don’t quality for the tuition exchange, then just stick with items #2 & 3, and see where the financial aid and merit aid chips fall. Just make sure she is prepared for the fact that she may still end up attending your university.</p>

<p>I think it is a bad plan to force her down the path of attending your college without allowing her to at least try to make other options work.</p>

8

<p>It seems to me your daughter is a wonderful position that others would envy, with a safety that won’t lead her or her parents into debt, even if it is not the “best” solution. Thousands of students every year due to finances settle for something other than first choice.</p>

<p>But I agree she should explore other schools and possible merit aid awards/scholarships she could receive, including at state schools that might have the larger plate of majors she wants. And if she does qualify for the tuition exchange, could she receive merit aid beyond the $31,500 your university would contribute to tuition, assuming the tuition at the other school is higher? Or is there some kind of limit built into the program?</p>

9

<p>Does your daughter have a job or any savings of her own? She should be able to help close the gap. If she’s truly a talented writer and knows that’s what she wants to do with her life, I think that taking on a reasonable amount of debt to put her in a school with a great writing program, where she’d have mentoring and networking opportunities she wouldn’t at your school, makes some sense. It’s probably what we’d have done in your shoes.</p>

<p>I am not saying that you or your d should take on 6 figures of debt, or even 40K, for a liberal arts major. You have a great fallback option in the honors college at your school. If all of you can agree going in (and if your daughter can truly understand) that anything beyond a reasonable amount of debt - you get to choose what that is - is out, then you have several months in which to pursue other options. Will she not qualify for any finaid? She seems likely to qualify for merit aid at schools that provide it.</p>

10

<p>i would look through the automatic merit aid schools, with her stats there are quite a few that would give her full tuition (she may even end up as a national merit scholar with her stats?) which might give her some full rides. there are a lot of schools out there that offer big merit packages selectively also. (my only reason for saying go guaranteed merit rather than selective is…you might not want her to fall in love with a school you cant afford if she is not one of the few chosen for a large award) </p>

<p>many of the guaranteed merit schools would only leave room and board , probably fitting in your 15k budget</p>

11

<p>She may not end up with that much debt. Schools “pad” their COAs. Kids save money by buying used books, not spending so much on personal expenses, etc.</p>

<p>She can also work over the summer to earn a few thousand to put towards her costs. She can also work part-time during the school year to provide “pocket money”.</p>

<p>She can also apply to schools that will give her large merit scholarships for her stats. If her GPA and test scores are high enough, she might get a full tuition scholarship.</p>

<p>Since your own school is ranked around 100 on USNews, you may be thinking that she needs to go to a school that is ranked much higher. Not necessarily so. There may be a school ranked around your school that just may have better programs than yours, and will give her a good merit scholarship. </p>

<p>Has she taken any ACT or SAT tests? How did she do on the PSAT?</p>

12

<p>I am going through the Tutition Exchange process now. I have pm’d you.</p>

13

<p>You’ve received some great advice above. I agree it is way too early to make a definitive decision one way or the other. It certainly is nice to have your school as one safety (both financial and admission). We don’t know her SAT/ACTs, has she taken either of them yet? How did she do on the PSAT? You and she have lots of time to explore merit aid, I would suggest you just chill for a while, see how she does for the rest of junior year, and take advantage of the fact that you can visit a lot of schools on academic breaks. Besure to have the financial talk with her soon to help her make her decision on where to apply and what amount of aid she will need to receive to attend.</p>

14

<p>How tuition remission (different from TE) works is sometimes confusing, when you just look at it from your employer’s wording. You paid 15k for son, may not have qualified for addl aid because they were footing the cost of tuition- and perhaps don’t have much more to offer from their coffers. This doesn’t preclude another college from treating the TR as a resource, but still giving need based finaid- depends on the other school and its policies- and what your actual financial position is. </p>

<p>Do you have both TR and TE? </p>

<p>One of the things about writing, as a future, is that there often needs to be content knowledge, the time spent honing thinking and analytical skills, and life experiences. There are more opportunities out there than one would think, for people who can learn quickly and write well. Writing experience and quality matter, yes, but it doesn’t hinge, at all, on a “writing” major. </p>

<p>More to say, but: whatever sort of writer she wants to be, nothing wrong with the education and experiences she could achieve at your school.</p>

15

<p>There are a lot of schools around the country that may not be part of the tuition exchange program that she could get scholarship money at along with your contribution and have her costs covered or close to covered. If she maxes out her federal loans on top of that, its only $27,000 in debt–so a car payment really. Take a school like Truman, excellent school, wonderful opportunities for internships, etc. OOS is at about $20,000, she would get $8,000 off the top for her grades and being an OOS student, your share is under what you can afford so transportation is covered as well. Done, easy :D.</p>

16

<p>I just looked at the list of those schools and MOST do not cost $55K. According to the Tuition Exchange website, tuition is covered at 100% (or 1/2 at OOS public schools). I see our DD’s school is on the list. If TE pays for tuition, you would be left with about $7000 in Room, board, fees plus whatever for Transportation. Other schools our kids applied to you would be in a similar situation, with tuition covered you would have to come up with between $10K-15K for room, board, fees, and transportation. There are a LOT of schools on that list that would be VERY affordable for you. Of the schools we looked into, I counted 36 schools on that list that would be MORE than affordable for you. Several of those schools she would also qualify for automatic merit aid and the total cost to you would be zero.</p>

17

<p>Treat your school as a safety - an option if nobody else comes up with an affordable offer of financial aid. Then have her apply to a mix of schools - some that are part of tuition exchange, and some that are not.</p>

<p>She shouldn’t be restricted to just your school, or even just to tuition exchange schools, because someone else might have a better offer than what she can get at your school - better for what she wants to pursue as well as less expensive. You teach at a large urban university, in the northeast. Salaries in the northeast are higher than much of the rest of the country, but you still may qualify for more financial aid than you think.</p>

18

<p>You’ve done quite an impressive and thorough analysis.</p>

<p>You’ve concluded that you can afford to spend $15K/yr on her college, however, that analysis was derived from the amount that your college cost, and not an amount that looked at all of your necessary expenses, including feeding your child now, how much you can defer for retirement, etc, and determined how much truly discretionary money you have. That’s ok, but to be fair, you really need to determine how much you can really pay. There is only an $8K gap between actual cost and what you’ve already concluded that you could pay using tuition exchange. That’s really not that much to borrow if half is borrowed by you and half by her. That’s about a car loan for each of you. I’m not criticizing, I’m just pointing out the methodology of your analysis and seeing if you might calculate it the other way (it might come out worse for all I know). </p>

<p>If that’s really all you can afford, there is a good chance of getting financial aid at the more competitive schools where she’ll be with her peers.</p>

<p>Furthermore, if I’m guessing correctly which school, and you live in one of the neighboring states, then there are very affordable excellent public options where should is also likely to get additional scholarships. These may be preferable to your daughter. </p>

<p>I don’t think it’s inappropriate for anyone to take out Stafford Loans. The amount that you can borrow is something that is not a crushing debt. </p>

<p>There are also inexpensive liberal arts colleges like Truman State in Missouri where the list price is pretty low and she would also get additional merit scholarships.</p>

<p>Finally a student studying writing should expect to do work study and work summers which could net an additional few thousand a year. So between Stafford and work, she could probably swing a bunch of schools. </p>

<p>I guess what I’m saying is that instead of pushing the particular school, which doesn’t sound like a great fit, discuss upfront the financial constraints, and the possible sources of payment. Basically</p>

<p>Cash from you
Work-study
Stafford Loans
Summer employment
Tuition Exchange
Need-based financial aid
Merit-scholarships
Discounts for in-state
Low list price schools</p>

<p>This should give you a basis to figure out what the options are. Then let HER decide.</p>

19

<p>My mom worked at a small college and I was forced to go to that school even though they did not have my major. I tried and tried to explain to them that my major was already 5 years crammed into 4 and that if I was to transfer somewhere else, they weren’t going to same any money. They just didn’t get it. I transferred to a university after one year and indeed had to spend two summers in class to graduate on time. If she knows what she wants, let her go do it. I totally understand the finances. Scholarships are awesome for that.</p>

20

<p>We went through a somewhat similar analysis a few years ago, as we looked ahead to our older son’s college application and choice, so perhaps can offer some lessons learned.</p>

<p>We had a very clear financial incentive to send him to my spouse’s employer – full tuition, so all we pay is room and board. We get a percentage of that amount to send him elsewhere. The “home” university is a terrific school, but a poor fit for our son. In the first two years of his high school, I was driven by the financial advantage and convinced he should go here as graduating without debt is an enormous advantage. Slowly, I came to accept that, as anxious as I am about money, that should not be the driving force in his college process, at least to the extent of pushing him to a school where he would be unhappy, but free from debt. So, he explored small LACs and big publics. As we are in the midwest, we are fortunate to be surrounded by great public flagships, and he is now OOS at a wonderful public flagship, and loving it. </p>

<p>I am not familiar with tuition exchange and whether it would be applicable to publics. If it is, it sounds like it should cover the OOS tuition at many wonderful public universities, including Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, and Minnesota where OOS tuition runs around $27k (under $20k for MN, but I heard that is increasing). I am from the east coast, so the whole notion of a midwest public was alien to me. No one I knew went to public universities because the Northeast corridor is dotted with wonderful private schools of every type. However, if you hop on a plane to Chicago, there are some incredible places within a few hour drive. Michigan, however, is no bargain for OOS folks – same tuition as a private, with no real financial aid to OOS students. </p>

<p>Another consideration is that, while OOS students will not generally qualify for financial aid at public universities, there is merit money available at some schools. Indiana offers guaranteed merit money for tuition for OOS students with high gpas and test scores, and I believe it can go as high as covering full OOS tuition. University of Iowa – with its renowned grad writing program, offers automatic merit money as well for high stat OOS kids – about $5k year. For a writer, Iowa might be heaven. </p>

<p>Another consideration is the Scholastic Writing Awards – while a long shot, I believe that seniors who win a Gold at Nationals for their Senior Portfolio (not just individual pieces) qualify for large awards at certain schools. I read through the materials and remember that Kenyon (another writer school) participates in that scholarship program. The Scholastic awards are announced in March of what would be your daughter’s senior year, so you have to already have applied and be admitted to the school. However, it sounds like Kenyon might be a school she would be interested in. If you go on the Scholastic Writing awards website, you can find the list of schools that participate in that scholarship program – wouldn’t hurt to investigate a few schools on that list.</p>

<p>So, a long way of saying, I would recommend continuing to explore options outside your employer institution, while keeping your employer institution as a true financial and academic safety which could work well for her. Good luck with this process, it is an exciting, agonizing time.</p>