Am I wrong in saying colleges today are going to the pits?

College Search & Selection
1

<p>I'm going to be a senor in high school this year and a lot of people (parents mostly) keep pressuring me about college and career crap that I don't need to be hearing right now. Anyway I'm not interested in a typical "college" because they're basically over priced scams that guarantee you nothing. At least that's what I've been reading on the net. Like The New York times: <a href="http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/07/do-you-really-have-to-go-to-college/?_r=0%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/07/do-you-really-have-to-go-to-college/?_r=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Or Straighter Line. My link isn't working but they tell all about college secrets being kept from me and my peers. (Just how credible are they?)</p>

<p>I'm really into computers, business, or even something you don't learn in a classroom (like manufacturing) still figuring out what I want to do, but you can teach anything yourself or with an online class with far less money. Even the mighty Bill Gates says this.....</p>

<p>So I'm mostly just asking if I'm not the only one thinking this. Keep in mind the economy is much different from when you older grads graduated ;)</p>

2

<p>Do you have the genius of Bill Gates?</p>

3

<p>Google hires 30% with Bachelors’, 30% with Masters and 30% with PhD’s. Are there a few that don’t have degrees? Probably but they are outliers. Computer science is one area where the degree is likely to translate into a great job right now. You don’t always need the degree to get a good job but you need the skills. So you have the issue of how to get them and how to prove them. You might be fine after that first job, but you might struggle to land it.</p>

<p>Online class might be interesting to you, and maybe you learned something, but it might not be valuable to an employer. MOOC’s are not state of the art yet.</p>

<p>Don’t forget one of the major things businesses are complaining about is lack of English and Analytical skills.</p>

<p>Straighter Line is a company that wants to sell you its products. You have to evaluate what they say very carefully and get opinions from elsewhere. </p>

<p>Be careful about looking for conspiracy theories everywhere based on just a minority opinion.</p>

4

<p>If you don’t have the brains to do something, nobody will consider you for hire. It’s basically what today’s world revolves around- knowledge, passion, desire, and experience.</p>

<p>However, if you’re going to a technical field, a lot of startups will generally focus more on your experience rather than your degree / knowledge. Having a degree will help, but if you have a degree and still don’t know anything, hardly any company will consider hiring.</p>

<p>If you look around on the interwebs, there are some lists of questions that are commonly asked on interviews / applications. Go look at them, and if you can answer them, then you might not even need to get to college. However, keep in mind that having a degree WILL help a lot.</p>

5

<p>College is not for everyone and it is possible to work in careers that make money where a typical college degree is not required. Perhaps you are one of those people who will do something along those lines (I recall reading where Caterpillar has had a rough time filling mechanic jobs that do in fact pay well.)</p>

<p>That said there are also many careers right now where you won’t even step foot in the door without a college degree and typically those jobs tend to pay higher salaries.</p>

6

<p>I should also mention that Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg and the rest are EXTREMELY RARE CASES of people who drop out of college and make very successful companies. Don’t have the mindset that you will be the next Bill Gates if you don’t go to college, because chances are, you won’t.</p>

7

<p>At one point you were looking at for-profit schools. Those are the rip offs.</p>

<p>If you attend a local public…start at a CC, then transfer to a local public univ, the costs will be low and you’ll have your degree.</p>

<p>In another thread you say that your parents won’t pay any costs, so unless you have hgh stats that might get you large merit, you probably won’t be able to afford the full COA to most schools.</p>

<p>I can understand that someone who had limited financial options might find the whole COA for many schools to be a rip off, but the instate tuition rates at an Arkansas public are probably low, and if you commuted, the cost would be low. </p>

<p>How are your parents really pressuring you if they’re not paying? Do they understand that you probably won’t have the funds to attend the schools that may want you to apply to?</p>

<p>What schools can you commute to?</p>

8

<p>You definitely don’t sound like you are ready for college at this point. The future may, or may not, change that. My suggestion is you start looking at options you do like for things to do after high school. College is not for everyone. There’s no shame in any path that legally allows you to support yourself. Everyone has their niche.</p>

9

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<p>True. Yet, the skills you need to advance in the job, after you get it, generally are not limited to technical skills. There are a few exceptionally gifted programmers who do advance (and get rewarded accordingly) based mostly on their technical skills. However, most employees need teaming, analysis, and communication skills to advance much beyond the entry level. They need to understand the customer’s business problem beyond the inputs to data structures and algorithms. A good liberal education should address these needs.</p>

<p>Have a look at the payscale.com data on starting and mid-career salaries by major:
[Majors</a> That Pay You Back ? PayScale College Salary Report 2012-13](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report-2013/majors-that-pay-you-back]Majors”>http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report-2013/majors-that-pay-you-back)</p>

<p>The default sort-order is by mid-career salary levels. Notice, first, that the top 10 are all technical fields (engineering, math, CS). Except for CS, most of these, as far as I know, usually require a credential (a college degree) to break in. If you sort by starting pay, not surprisingly, you’ll still get technical fields in the top 10. This reflects market demand.</p>

<p>In the following table, I’ve sorted on the difference between starting and mid-career salaries. This results in a very different ranking. Classics, Linguistics, and Philosphy majors all have salary growth rates of 90% or more. Computer Science and many engineering majors have salary growth rates of 75% or less. These figures are based on data only from college graduates with terminal bachelors degrees (they do not include data from anyone with advanced degrees.)</p>

<p>Bottom line: you might get a decent job in a technical field even if you don’t get a college degree … however, chances are, you’ll wind up working for a liberal arts major who did.</p>

<p>



Rank (by salary growth) ... Rank (by mid-career salary) ... major .... starting salary ... mid-career salary ... salary growth
1   16  International Relations $40,600     $93,000     129%
2   14  Government  $42,000     $95,600     128%
3   50  Classics    $35,300     $75,900     115%
4   31  Molecular Biology   $40,100     $84,900     112%
5   40  Urban Planning  $39,000     $79,900     105%
6   24  Biochemistry (BCH)  $43,200     $88,500     105%
7   42 - tie    Film Production $37,500     $76,700     105%
8   41  Advertising $37,800     $77,100     104%
9   10  Statistics  $49,300     $99,500     102%
10  8   Applied Mathematics $50,800     $102,000    101%
11  34  Biotechnology   $41,400     $82,800     100%
12  3   Actuarial Mathematics   $56,100     $112,000    100%
13  21  Geology $45,000     $89,400     99%
14  25  Chemistry   $44,700     $87,500     96%
15  15  Economics   $48,500     $94,900     96%
16  52  Linguistics $38,300     $74,900     96%
17  11  Physics $51,200     $99,100     94%
18  48  Microbiology    $39,700     $76,200     92%
19  64  Zoology $36,500     $69,700     91%
20  47  Global & International Studies  $40,200     $76,500     90%
21  58  Philosophy  $38,300     $72,600     90%
22  55  Marketing & Communications  $39,100     $73,900     89%
23  2   Aerospace Engineering   $62,500     $118,000    89%
24  44 - tie    Marketing Management    $40,700     $76,600     88%
25  20  Environmental Engineering   $47,900     $89,700     87%
26  53  Political Science (PolySci) $40,300     $74,700     85%
27  56  Environmental Science   $39,800     $73,600     85%
28  59  Biology $39,100     $72,200     85%
29  37  Food Science    $44,000     $81,100     84%
30  39  Industrial Design (ID)  $43,600     $80,300     84%
31  44 - tie    Telecommunications  $41,600     $76,600     84%
32  60  Literature  $39,200     $72,000     84%
33  71  Spanish $35,900     $65,900     84%
34  94  Broadcasting    $31,800     $58,300     83%
35  65  Agriculture $38,000     $69,300     82%
36  44 - tie    International Business  $42,500     $76,600     80%
37  61 - tie    History $39,000     $70,200     80%
38  51  Architecture    $41,900     $75,200     79%
39  79 - tie    Radio & Television  $35,900     $64,400     79%
40  30  Finance $47,700     $85,400     79%
41  13  Biomedical Engineering (BME)    $54,900     $98,200     79%
42  76  Public Relations (PR)   $36,500     $65,000     78%
43  57  American Studies    $40,900     $72,800     78%
44  82  Liberal Arts    $35,300     $62,500     77%
45  29  Mathematics $48,500     $85,800     77%
46  66  Health Sciences $39,000     $68,700     76%
47  81  Fashion Design  $36,300     $63,900     76%
48  68  Communications  $38,900     $68,400     76%
49  78  Journalism  $36,800     $64,700     76%
50  28  Construction Management $49,500     $86,100     74%
51  32  Computer Information Systems (CIS)  $49,000     $84,800     73%
52  73 - tie    English $38,100     $65,500     72%
53  23  Management Information Systems (MIS)    $51,600     $88,600     72%
54  9   Computer Science (CS)   $58,400     $100,000    71%
55  83  Hospitality & Tourism   $36,400     $62,300     71%
56  86 - tie    Psychology  $35,200     $60,200     71%
57  84  Anthropology    $36,000     $61,400     71%
58  27  Information Systems (IS)    $50,900     $86,700     70%
59  69  Geography   $39,800     $67,400     69%
60  63  Business    $41,400     $70,000     69%
61  88  Humanities  $35,600     $60,100     69%
62  54  Accounting  $44,300     $74,500     68%
63  7   Computer Engineering (CE)   $62,700     $105,000    67%
64  92 - tie    Religious Studies   $34,900     $58,400     67%
65  6   Electrical Engineering (EE) $63,400     $106,000    67%
66  35  Information Technology (IT) $48,900     $81,700     67%
67  79 - tie    Speech Communication    $38,700     $64,400     66%
68  1   Petroleum Engineering   $98,000     $163,000    66%
69  67  German  $41,300     $68,500     66%
70  22  Civil Engineering (CE)  $53,800     $88,800     65%
71  100 - tie   Art $34,400     $56,700     65%
72  75  French  $39,500     $65,100     65%
73  4   Chemical Engineering    $67,500     $111,000    64%
74  12  Mechanical Engineering (ME) $60,100     $98,400     64%
75  36  Industrial Technology (IT)  $49,700     $81,300     64%
76  70  Landscape Architecture  $40,600     $66,300     63%
77  98  Sports Management   $35,300     $57,600     63%
78  99  Interior Design $35,300     $57,500     63%
79  72  Hotel Management    $40,400     $65,800     63%
80  38  Civil Engineering Technology (CET)  $49,500     $80,500     63%
81  100 - tie   Criminal Justice    $35,200     $56,700     61%
82  77  Multimedia and Web Design   $40,500     $64,900     60%
83  5   Nuclear Engineering $66,800     $107,000    60%
84  91  Visual Communication    $36,700     $58,700     60%
85  33  Mechanical Engineering Technology (MET) $52,900     $83,400     58%
86  100 - tie   Sociology   $36,000     $56,700     58%
87  85  Human Resources (HR)    $39,200     $61,200     56%
88  73 - tie    Forestry    $42,000     $65,500     56%
89  95  Fashion Merchandising   $37,600     $58,100     55%
90  19  Software Engineering    $59,100     $90,700     53%
91  49  Occupational Health and Safety  $49,600     $76,000     53%
92  17  Materials Science & Engineering $60,100     $91,900     53%
93  18  Industrial Engineering (IE) $59,900     $91,200     52%
94  42 - tie    Supply Chain Management $50,500     $76,700     52%
95  90  Drama   $39,300     $58,900     50%
96  26  Electrical Engineering Technology (EET) $58,400     $86,900     49%
97  97  Health Care Administration  $39,600     $57,800     46%
98  89  Public Administration   $41,500     $59,700     44%
99  92 - tie    Organizational Management (OM)  $40,700     $58,400     43%
100 96  Nutrition   $40,600     $57,900     43%
101 61 - tie    Nursing $54,100     $70,200     30%
102 86 - tie    Medical Technology  $49,600     $60,200     21%

</p>

10

<p>Many times online classes are more expensive.</p>

<p>How much would it cost you to commute to your local CC? Even if you only went part time, you could use the rest of your time seeing if you can earn a living without a degree. </p>

<p>Stop looking at privates unless they give large amounts of need-based aid and your family’s income would qualify. If the schools that you’re looking at would require you to pay more than you can, take them off your list. You can’t borrow much.</p>

<p>Are your parents low income? or do they have a good income, but can’t contribute?</p>

<p>I know a young man who’s quite the whiz when in comes to programming, etc. But, he never finished college and it’s held him back. He’d be earning twice as much or more if he had finished his degree. </p>

<p>Anyway…to answer your question. No, colleges are not going to the pits. :rolleyes:</p>

11

<p>Yeah, help me owe a LOT of money for a worthless “education”</p>

12

<p>Yeah, but if the university sucks then I don’t want their degree.</p>

13

<p>Then I’m assuming you are looking at top to decent schools? Most of the top schools have excellent financial aid programs. Not only will you pay much less than the price tag for the school, but some even exclusively offer grants that do not need to be repaid. The education you get is not “worthless”. People can take everything away from you - your company, your home, your car - but they can never take away your education. </p>

<p>Yes, college is not for everyone, but you have to remember that today’s economy is not like yesterday’s, just like you said. Many PhDs are even out of work and on food stamps. A college degree may not even suffice in today’s cutthroat job market. </p>

<p>But, it’s your choice and if you think you can bear the final consequences of not going to college, it’s your decision.
People often cite people like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, etc. as people who have dropped out of college and made it big. You have to remember that they were presented with extraordinary opportunities and social circumstances that allowed them to succeed. As Malcolm Gladwell documents in “Outliers”, these people had access to computers in a time when nobody else had computers. They were able to capitalize on that and develop programs in a time when there was little competition. That’s how they made it big. You’ll notice that many of these tech millionaires have birth dates that are very close to each other. The time window is indeed small. These optimal social circumstances come about maybe one or two times in a century. Are you skilled enough at gambling to make your wager that we are in one of those times? For every Bill Gates, there are a hundred people who wish they had gone to college before family life, work, etc. caught up to them.</p>

14

<p>Some of you may not be getting what I’m saying. The facts say even if you have a degree of some kind, you’re not getting the job you want. The problem I’m seeing is no one wants to do menial labor jobs like electrician, manufacturing, etc. which are not that bad.</p>

15

<p>So you are just posting to insult the advice of the people who respond to you? Fine then; I’m sure you know what’s best so what was the point of your original question.</p>

16

<p>Yes, but I didn’t say I’m like Bill Gates. I said he believes in online education. He’s a smart guy so I thought I’d mention that :)</p>

<p>And no I’m not looking at any schools right now. I have been looking at certificates from Red Hat Linux for Linux jobs though.</p>

17

<p>The facts also say that if you don’t have a degree of some kind, you’re unemployed. Those jobs you mention still require a vocational degree nowadays. I know someone who is going to a two-year program to become an electrician. If you really want to do menial jobs the rest of your life without a career prospect, then no, it’s not that bad.</p>

<p>Bill Gates grew up in a very different time. Online education is good, but what company is going to hire somebody without a degree, even if that person learned a lot from the Internet?</p>

18

<p>You can go to college to broaden your horizons, develop your understanding of yourself and the world, increase your analytical skills. And that’s unvaluable. With your degree, no, you won’t be guaranteed anything. But NOTHING is guaranteed. However when they see your degree employers know it’s a code for something and that makes them more likely to hire you than if you didn’t have that degree/code.
You can go to college to find a specific job. You can major in engineering to become an engineer (and if you do, you WILL find a job and you WILL work as an engineer, although perhaps not in the exact town/company you wished, or perhaps not for the pay you think you deserve). You can become an electrician or a mechanic by completing an AS or a certificate at a community college.
But all skilled jobs require a degree of some kind certifying you have the skills (hence, “skilled” jobs).
If a certification weren’t needed, anyone could walk around claiming they’ve learned their skill online, whether it’s true or not.
You can get a vocational or technical high school diploma, too, since it certifies you have (limited but verified) skills in one area.
However if you only have a general high school diploma, you won’t be able to have a career. You’ll have jobs where you’re likely to be the first fired if there’s a problem and you won’t make a “living wage”.
Now, will you go into debt? It depends what college you attend. Some colleges offer excellent financial aid (typically those are for students with high achievement). States offer public colleges where you can commute and pay in-state rates for tuition, with a legal maximum of $5,500 in loans for your first year. You can attend community college, which will not make you borrow as the cost tends to be very affordable.
The worst colleges financially are for-profit colleges since their goal is to make money, not to make you learn (as their name clearly states). In fact the more you fail, the more you stay and pay, which is good for them since their goal is to make money off of you. (“normal” colleges aren’t for profit, their goal is to help you learn. Of course it’s up to you to seize that opportunity, but they’re not making money off you.)
In any case, what’s the risk? If a college offers a financial aid package you don’t like, don’t go there. It’s simple. But when you apply you open yourself to the opportunity of receiving a good financial aid package that will allow to get a degree that leads to a job, without enormous loans (or even no loans).
If you’re really really concerned about cost, apply to Deep Springs (free) or if you’re working class, apply to Berea (free tuition if you get in).</p>

19

<p>Sorry I didn’t mean it like that! Pardon my sour mood I’ll take any advice I can get.</p>

20

<p>My dad is a truck driver who makes much more than my mom who has a degree she doesn’t use and a certificate she has in nursing. Didn’t go to college.</p>

<p>I really like your answer but I just don’t trust the current education right now.</p>