<p>I am in charge of organizing AMC competitions at our school.
We have participated in AMC 8 for the past two years, this year , tomorrow actually, adding AMC 10 A.
Our school goes only through 9 grade.
Should I consider spendig money to add AMC 12? How different is it from AMC 10? What strategies have you used with your best math students/competitors?
I am posting this on parents forum since my impression is that parents know way more about this issue than the teachers, LOL</p>
<p>Adding AMC 10 A is the right choice because it allows you to qualify for AIME and USAMO. AMC 8 does not qualify for AIME and USAMO. You may want to add AMC 10 B too. This give you a better chance for USAMO qualification. For grade 10 and under, AMC 10 gives more advantage over AMC 12 because the AMC use 2 different USAMO indices for 2 different grade levels. Take AMC 12 B if you do very well on AMC 10 A (140+). AMC 12 is a lot harder. You can look at the AMC web page for more info. Google USAMO.</p>
<p>My daugher is taking the AMC 12 tomorrow (she's in 11th grade). Good luck with your test. I think you could just do AMC 10 and then look forward to doing 12 in high school. I don't know about your budget but my understanding is that it would cost you quite a bit to add 12 since you have to order a full packet for each test. I can ask my daughter for more information when she gets home from school today.</p>
<p>Son did well - for his HS- on those. Consider this- those likely to take the AMC 12 should probably be taking math courses with the 10-12 HS, and therefore be able to take that test with them. Check with the HS your students feed into.</p>
<p>Kelowna, </p>
<p>Generally speaking, you probably should not spend the additional money (btw, isn't it already late to register the school?). But that depends. If your school is a school for gifted, and/or there are kids at precalculus/calculus level, they may benefit from trying both tests. I believe that the payment for one packet is not that high.</p>
<p>I think I can tell what kind of students may benefit from taking AMC-12 (5% of students advance to AIME) vs. AMC-10 (1% advance to AIME). Those who are very advanced (for middle-school kids), but at the same time may make stupid caraless mistakes. If you know you have such students in your group, you may want to let them try the more complex test.</p>
<p>Another thought: I believe students can take AMC in a school other than their own (at least homeschoolers do it all the time). So, you may want to ask around if some high school in the neighborhood will allow one or two of your kids to take the test with their students?</p>
<p>United</a> States of America Mathematical Olympiad - USAMO</p>
<p>
[quote]
Selection for the USAMO will be made according to the follwing rules:</p>
<ol>
<li>The goal is to select about 500 of the top scorers from the prior AIME and AMC 12A, AMC 12B, AMC 10A and AMC 10B contests to participate in the USAMO. </li>
<li>Selection will be based on the USAMO index which is defined as 10 times the student's AIME score plus the student's score on the AMC 12 or the AMC 10. </li>
<li>The first selection will be the approximately 300 highest USAMO indices of students taking the AMC 12A or AMC 12B contest. </li>
<li>The lowest AIME score among those 300 first selected will determine a floor value. The second selection of USAMO participants will be from the highest USAMO indices among students who took the AMC 10A or AMC 10B and the AIME, and got an AIME score at least as high as the floor value. </li>
<li>The student with the highest USAMO index from each state, territory, or U.S. possession not already represented in the selection of the first and second groups will be invited to take the USAMO. </li>
<li>To adjust for variations in contest difficulty, the number of students selected from A & B contests will be proportional to the number of students who took the (A & B) Contests. </li>
<li>The selection process is designed to favor students who take the more mathematically comprehensive AMC 12A and AMC 12B contests.
[/quote]
</li>
</ol>
<p>If you are in grade 10 or under and aim for USAMO and MOP, you need to look at rule #4. Rule #7 is a little bit misleading. The AMC changed the rules in the last two years and generated a lot of confusion and heated debates.</p>
<p>coolweather,
There are discussions about USAMO selection at Art</a> of Problem Solving every year. The wording is different in the official Teacher's Manual. Read the Selection Process, Section II, page 4:
<a href="http://www.unl.edu/amc/d-publication/d1-pubarchive/2006-7pub/07-USAMO-TM/TM-USAMO,2007.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.unl.edu/amc/d-publication/d1-pubarchive/2006-7pub/07-USAMO-TM/TM-USAMO,2007.pdf</a>
[quote]
The second selection of approximately
160 USAMO participants will be among students in
the 10th grade and below who received an AIME score at
least as high as the floor value. If there are more than 160
young students with a score above the floor value, then approximately
160 students will be selected from this group by
using the USAMO index.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Indeed, it is stated "students who took the AMC 10A or AMC 10B..." at the AMC website; I guess they just don't see any difference; or probably the official wording was different several years ago. But MAA Director Steve Dunbar assured people at AoPS that in fact, they meant all students in 10 grade and younger even at that time (no matter if they've taken AMC-10 or AMC-11). </p>
<p>Yes, there will be a slight difference if more than 160 young students will get the AIME "floor"; but as it's impossible to tell in advance, we probably should not get too deep into this discussion. Especially seeing that the question was about a middle school.</p>
<p>You don't need to add AMC 12. AMC 12 is harder and it needs pre-calculus. S has been taking AMC & AIME since 8th grade, and has participated USAMO three times. He took AMC 10 in 8th, 9th grade.
If you want your students have more chance to move up to AIME, add AMC 10 B. To prepare these test well, students need to learn more advance math outside their classrooms. Art of problem solving webside lists a lot excellent books.</p>
<p>Good luck to the students testing. The AMC 12 adds topics from "precalculus," especially trigonometry, and you can schedule that if you have a lot of students who know those topics, but otherwise students of the age you are talking about can stick with the AMC 10.</p>
<p>marmat103 - As you suggested, I would not want to go into lengthy discussion here. However, it's important for the OP to know that last year some students in grade 10 and below took the AMC 12 and did not qualify for USAMO while many others took the AMC 10 and did qualify. The two groups had the same AIME scores but the ones with AMC 12 had lower USAMO index (AMC score + 10 times AIME score). Qualifying for USAMO in 9th grade is very desirable because this gives students higher chance to go the MOP summer camp. The AMC allows about 30 9th graders (out of about 60 total) go to the camp to foster young talents.</p>
<p><a href="btw,%20isn't%20it%20already%20late%20to%20register%20the%20school?">quote</a>.
[/quote]
It probably is too late to register for AMC 10B, but I am not even considering it for 2008. I am merely "testing the waters" to see what kind of strategy I should apply next year.</p>
<p>Thank you for all your responses so far. What I gather from your opinions, is that I should not even bother with AMC 12 as it is of no advantage to sit for it for students in grades 9 and younger. We also do not have any kids at Pre-Calc level (will next year), but some of them are in Algebra II, which in this school contains Trig.
It is also my understanding, that students gain something by writing both AMC 10 A &B. Am I correct? But what are they gaining - just another shoot at advancing to AIME? Is it wise for a student who might be able to score high enough to really write both? Are they equally difficult, or does one of them have a tendency to be "easier"?
I do not expect any of my students to qualify for AIME this year. The decision to add AMC 10 A this year was a last minute one. But I imagine that next year, at least one of them has a chance.
I have to read again , more carefully, about the index scores. It is all new to me:-)</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think I can tell what kind of students may benefit from taking AMC-12 (5% of students advance to AIME) vs. AMC-10 (1% advance to AIME). Those who are very advanced (for middle-school kids), but at the same time may make stupid caraless mistakes. If you know you have such students in your group, you may want to let them try the more complex test.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Marmat, can you explain in more detail why do you believe so?</p>
<p>I would have thought this less true for the AMC tests, but it was certainly true of lower level tests. Mathson had a 90th percentile result on the NYS 5th grade math test, but in the fall of 6th grade had the second highest score in the school on the AMC8. (That 90th percentile score caused the principal to not want to skip him in math "There are a dozen other kids with higher scores", but luckily we prevailed, and the AMC results vindicated us. Not to mention his A's in math.) Even on the SATs the problems he got wrong were easy ones - one was a simple matter of county tiles - any fourth grader could have done it, but he left out one step. Another one he simply misread the question.</p>
<p>The general advantage of taking the AMC 10 on both available dates each year, besides making it more likely to qualify for the AIME, is gaining overall lifetime experience in the test faster year on year.</p>
<p>That Rule #4 is very interesting. In 2002, the first year the "floor score" method was used, that was how it was originally stated. Then they realized that a bunch of people had missed the USAMO merely by virtue of taking a harder test rather than an easier test (regardless of score), which clearly shouldn't happen. Those people were invited to the USAMO en masse about two weeks before the contest happened. Ever since, the floor value has applied to anyone in grades 10 and below. It seems very strange that they'd change it back now.</p>
<p>Kelowna, my reasoning is pretty similar to the reasoning "why a student who took precalculus should take SAT II Math Level 2 rather than Level 1". For an advanced student, both tests will be almost equally difficult; but the curve is much better for SAT II level 2, and the percent of kids who get to take AIME is much higher for AMC-12. Well, it looks like you probably don't have students THAT advanced in your school (unless there is a hidden gem undiscovered by the teachers), so these details should not bother you too much. In case you think there is a gem or two, you may want to give them some past tests to see if they can work at that level.</p>
<p>For a hypothetical "careless-mistakes-prone" (but very advanced) kid, I think it would be easier for him to get 100 on AMC-12 than 120 on AMC-10 (presuming that he knows the AMC-12 math really well and makes approximately equal amount of careless mistakes in every test). And, well, kids usually pay more attention on the tests that are interesting for them (see mathmom's story) - so he might even make less mistakes on AMC-12 :)</p>
<p>Thanks Marmat and all others for your thoughts . I truly appreciate them.
As I have stated above, I am learning as I go. This is all very new to me, and the funny part is that you guys here are explaining things to me and I am explaining everything to the math teacher. See, I am coordinating all the efforts, she administers the tests. I am in it for a long run, as my oldest, mathematically able child is only in seventh grade.
We had 10 kids participate today, I am hoping that maybe in a few years we will be able to attract more;-)
For my own flesh and blood, this was a truly learning experience. Not much prep at all, but he still thought that the test from last year was easier:-)
This was also a historical moment - no calculators for the first time! It is not like they needed them, but...</p>
<p>Both tests are equally difficult. When S was not satisied with AMC 10A (or AMC 12A) score, he contacted the other school to take AMC 10B(or AMC 12B). Sometimes he could get higher score, sometimes didn't. If your students want to get first or second placed in state, AMC 10B is better. Most schools take AMC 10A, only a few schools take AMC 10B.
S took AMC 12A today. Even though he got the last question right, he missed the first question, the first one was so simple. I think he is the only one made such stupid mistake(lol). When he was 9th grade, he took AMC 10A, and he missed first question too, that's why he didn't get perfect score.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If your students want to get first or second placed in state, AMC 10B is better. Most schools take AMC 10A, only a few schools take AMC 10B.
[/quote]
Is that really the case ?</p>
<p>It's true that most schools take the A test. And it's probably true that the B test have fewer number of high scores because once students get the super high or perfect score on the A test they will not take the B test. But in the AMC competition, the state ranking is not that important (although the AMC does give certificate to highest state score). I think students tend to think the score is the rank. 10th place score 140 in some state still looks better than the first place score 130 in some other state. And people don't care whether the score is from the A test or B test. And if you take both tests then it does not matter at all.</p>