Amherst vs Carleton vs Haverford (unable to visit)

My kiddo’s plan for college was to apply RD to a variety of LACs and then use admitted student visits to determine which one to attend. That’s obviously not an option now (especially not from our home in the Pacific northwest), so now the decision has to be made without seeing the schools.

Of the colleges that offered admission, Amherst, Carleton, and Haverford seem like the best fits given my kid’s particular goals and personality:

  • Likes numbers more than words. Will almost certainly be a STEM major, probably math or physics or similar. Will probably attend graduate school.
  • LGBTQ: Kiddo is biologically female but identifies as non-binary and uses they/them pronouns. Attracted to females.
  • Has always had a variety of interests (hence the LACs), so will also want to take classes in culture, politics, gender studies, music.
  • Attended a very small public magnet high school (<60 in the graduating class) where all students take the full IB diploma program. The school offered very few electives, so now kiddo would prefer as few required classes as possible. We know Amherst has no required classes, but it's not entirely clear how restrictive the requirements of the other two end up being in practice.
  • Community is very important. They definitely prefer a collaborative rather than competitive environment. They are a rather unique person and crave a place where they feel they belong.
  • Not into loud parties or drinking. More likely to play board games with friends.
  • Not especially sporty, but would enjoy the opportunity to play ultimate frisbee (or perhaps another casual sport) at an intramural level.
  • Not a city person. Haverford's location near Philadelphia would be handy for travel between college and home but is otherwise not strong advantage.

Any thoughts or suggestions from people familiar with the schools? Are there other aspects that we should be considering?

Congrats to your daughter on 3 great options. You really can’t go wrong with any.

I’m most familiar with Haverford having a child that attended but Carleton was a top contender for my other kid and I’ve always had a soft spot for Carleton. In terms of an accepting place, collaborative community more than competitive, I’d give top marks to Haverford closely followed by Carleton. Both have very good and welcoming ultimate teams. Both are very strong at STEM.

Even though your child isn’t a city person, having a city close by for art, music, dining is very convenient while still having a bucolic campus to live on. What might not be of interest to a young adult at 17/18 might become so as an upperclassman. Plus, access to a big city provides additional research/internship opportunities.

Haverford College seems to be the best choice due to several reasons shared in your post starting this thread.

No wrong choice, but Haverford College & nearby Bryn Mawr might be the most comfortable environment.

Play it safe. Amherst can be the perfect place for a certain well-rounded, middle-of-the-road sort of personality. But, to coin a phrase, it is a small place of intense complexity at this point in its history. It seems to be banking a lot of its future on its ability to bulldoze large segments of the campus.

Haverford is much more of a known quantity, IMO.

Carleton’s rep in math and science PhD production, precedes it but TBH I don’t know that much about it.

Another vote for Haverford.

  • H/BMC–They will find like-minded folks at both places in terms of LGBT+ H/BMC practically share campuses.
  • H/BMC has parties but there’s always / usually the option to have quiet space.
  • Amherst has cute town and access to consortium, it’s more distant from the other colleges. H/BMC offers the small LAC campus plus immediate access to the alternate campus. Swarthmore and UPenn are more of a stretch to get to but possible–students who do this tend to do so sophomore+ years once they get their feet under them. Amherst all the other colleges are slightly harder to get to.
  • Carleton–small town, and no or extremely limited access to other places to study.
  • Philly offers wonderful opportunities to H/BMC (urban culture for research and internships (H/BMC offer a unique major on urban structure for example); museums; food and fun) while Amherst and Carleton have much more limited access to cities.
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Haverford seems top choice, though Carleton also a great 2nd choice option. Amherst seems like the not-really-their-cup-of-tea school and not even a distant third good-fit. This is based on recent grads we know from all 3 schools. Haverford, with culture of community and collaboration through Honor Code and Quaker tradition, plus integrated academic and social experience with Bryn Mawr, and strong sciences, seems best of all possible worlds for your student.

No bad choices here. Congrats.
Should be noted that Amherst has a brand new science center with lots of opportunities and increased programming for STEM. Very collaborative place/not competitive. The most diverse student body of the 3. Carleton also very strong in the sciences but has a more ‘intense’ environment than the other two.
@circuitrider I am perplexed by your bulldoze comment as it relates to Amherst. can you explain?

[quote=“wisteria100, post:7, topic:2091889”]

Carleton also very strong in the sciences but has a more ‘intense’ environment than the other two.

Not my impression of its intensity. Carleton is very strong in science but is a very collaborative place, not a competitive one. One proxy for competitiveness is the number of students aiming to go into Investment Banking/Consulting, and Amherst has much more of that crowd than either Carleton or Haverford. These two seem like the best options given how you described your student, but all three are wonderful places. You can’t really go wrong here. Congrats.

Well, Amherst has a very odd architectural inheritance. It was blessed early on with a singularly striking topographic feature, a bluff above the town center with a commanding view of the surrounding Pioneer Valley. And, for well over a century and a half it took full advantage of the site with a classic red-brick row of founding buildingsthat included several dormitories. For decades, that was the entire college, a dear postage stamp setting for everything from chapel to athletics. Very typical for LACs.

But, for some reason they were never really able to strike a balance with Post WWII modernism. Its major effort, the Robert Frost Library is generally regarded as the ugliest library in NESCAC.

But, none of that would have mattered so much but for the fact that the old campus (which was now effectively closed off on three sides) was no longer big enough to fit the entire student body (it is now referred to as “The Freshman Quad”, to give you some idea.) Almost all expansion since the early 1960s have been attempts to somehow unify the old campus with a series of satellite adventures at or below its feet.

The latest attempt will involve bulldozing the outdated Merrill Center (itself another architectural misstep) in order to create a transitional corridor between the upper plateau and the valley below and not incidentally, for what would be a much needed student union.

@rockysoil I said Carleton was intense, but did not mean it was not collaborative. The intensity comes from the trimester system which was characterized on the tour and in the info session as being ‘intense’. But it’s a friendly place for sure.
Not sure the correlation between consulting/finance and competitiveness is valid. Certainly at Amherst it is not. It’s not a school characterized by competitiveness.
But perhaps for this student Carleton is the best option

I’d say Carleton because the preferences above really mirror the environment at Carleton—collaborative, rural, good STEM programs, and… frisbee. I wouldn’t call Carleton’s trimester system “intense” in a negative way, but it does allow students to explore their interests a bit more due to an additional course (compared to usual semesters). If your kid’s interested in a variety of fields I don’t think there will be a problem meeting graduation course requirements either.

Not sure why Amherst is getting a bad rap here. Brand new STEM building with state of the art facilities. UMass is down the street, providing not only a breadth of curriculum offerings but a community of 25,000 college students right within the town of Amherst with all kinds of kids in a pretty liberal environment. Neither of the other options offer that kind of small college within a large college community. Smith and Mount Holyoke are minutes away, providing more options both academically and socially. In addition to the college town of Amherst, nearby Northampton is a great town with an alternative vibe all its own. Both college and public transportation are readily available, or take the bike trail.

Amherst College has an open curriculum, reducing competition and allowing each student the opportunity to forge their own path. Over the past 15 year, they’ve made a strong commitment to diversity with the financial aid to enable students to attend who would otherwise not be able to afford it. No loans are utilized to meet financial needs, only grants. Seniors all get private rooms in student housing.

I’d suggest that you contact Admissions and have a frank conversation about your student’s needs. Ask to be connected with current students who can speak to the issues of concern to you. During this period of isolation, colleges are doing this routinely. Only current students can provide you with true insights into the current student experience at any of these colleges.

Since collaborative systems were mentioned, I thought that I’d point out that Haverford’s honor code and exam policies and the background of Quaker values, allows H to be uniquely non-competitive among the students regarding academics. BMC shares these values so if you take classes at both campuses (a high probability) you will find they have similar exam policies etc. For example, at H/BMC often when you take an exam, you decide when you’re ready, go sign out the exam, take it to a room and self-monitor your time. No one checks to see if you’re cheating–there are no proctors. It’s the Quaker-esque way of being responsible for yourself and allowing others the same. This attitude allows there to be no RAs checking up on dorm behavior. Or, you to leave your belongings unattended while you go off to the bathroom. No one steals your stuff. The atmosphere of this self-monitoring, and personal responsibility, and looking out for the other person, is extraordinary and refreshing.

These are all wonderful options. I think, given your child’s gender identity, Haverford would provide the best environment for them. Also concur that Carleton would be the second choice. While I am generally a fan of Amherst, I think the fit is the least great there.

Seems like Amherst is getting dinged on the issue of gender identity. But Amherst is by far the most diverse of the 3 choices. In many dorms there are more gender neutral bathrooms than single sex ones, pronoun preferences are respected and as @Bill Marsh eloquently points out being part of a larger consortium provides lots of social and academic opportunity. Add that the town of Northampton is particularly LBQTB friendly and that makes Amherst a seriously contender for this student.

^ It is also the nature of socializing for this student. I think Amherst has the most “typical LAC” social scene. For my kid, that would have propelled it to the top of this list, bit for the OP, I think the opposite. (No interest in loud parties or drinking.)

If Amherst were the only school of this caliber that OP had on the list that was affordable, I think it could work. But this student is in the fortunate position of being able to optimize.

What about the isolation of Carleton? If a student like this runs into bias or other problems, where do you turn for an alternative scene? Although it’s close to Philly and Bryn Mawr, I don’t see Haverford with only 1300 students as much better. In both of these schools, you’re on an island. Either it works or it doesn’t. Amherst College isn’t off on an island - not with UMass down the street, not with the 5 college consortium handy, and not with Northampton nearby.

Ultimately I think a frank conversation with all three is the best way to decide where is the best fit.

Frankly the first question I’d like to ask any of these colleges is how they’d respond to an issue of roommate incompatibility. Some colleges are very rigid about this and insist that students stick it out for a while. Others are more sympathetic and will make adjustments more quickly. Nothing can make a college experience go downhill faster for a kid in their first year at college away from home is a roommate nightmare. This would be especially true for a student with gender identity issues.

@Bill

Bill Marsh makes a good point. It’s worth noting that 60% of Haverford’s first-year housing is single rooms. If you want to do a deep dive into housing options, policies, housing questionnaire, etc. you should visit the first-year housing page: https://www.haverford.edu/residential-life/first-year-housing

My D has a friend at Amherst who now identifies as male. He was able to freely do that because he feels so comfortable there. The consortium with UMass, Smith, Mt. Holyoke and (maybe?) Hampshire will give the OP’s kid plenty of opportunities to explore the community and meet a lot of different people. Amherst is a nice town, and I think the campus is pretty. My vote is for Amherst, followed by Carleton.

ETA: Carleton has a slightly nerdy feel, and the trimester system can be intense. It was one of my daughter’s top choices, but I’m secretly glad she didn’t get in, because I think the trimester system can be tough. Lots of fun groups and activities at Carleton.