Williams, Bowdoin, Amherst or Carleton?

College Search & Selection
1

<p>My daughter has been accepted to Amherst, Bowdoin and Carleton so far (she is still waiting to hear from Williams, Swarthmore and Princeton) She is a strong science student with graduate school in her sights, wants a small, supportive community but still with a variety of things to do. She is looking for a liberal, intellectual and fun environment. She's hoping to not have to work herself into exhaustion as she did in high school. She's more the "go out and have a snowball fight for fun type" than the "go to a party and drink" type.</p>

<p>As a mom, I am hoping she goes to a school with a culture that respects women.</p>

<p>Any thoughtful musings about the differences between these schools would be greatly appreciated.</p>

2

<p>I have no connection to these schools, but have done a lot of reading, and would not send my daughter to Amherst or Williams based on their rape statistics. Have you read about them on cc? There are many links to articles that might horrify you. I would do a lot of research on this before I sent her to either place. Princeton may also be questionable, based on info posted in the Steubenville thread.</p>

3

<p>S is a sophomore at Carleton. We briefly visited Bowdoin and Williams on college tours, but that doesn’t give me enough insight to make a comparison.</p>

<p>What I can say about Carleton is that S loves it. He does work hard, but says that as long as he does not procrastinate, the workload is manageable. The students are intellectual and tend to lean liberal. There seems to be plenty of drinking at parties, but many options for kids who don’t care for it. I got to spend a little time with one of his female Carleton friends last summer and she certainly didn’t seem like a person who would tolerate any disrespect toward women.</p>

4

<p>Congratulations to your daughter! She has three great options with still other possibilities on the horizon. </p>

<p>Carleton looks like it would be a great fit academically: extremely strong in sciences and sends tons of students to graduate school. My son is in his third year and loves it. The workload, though, is intense, in part due to the trimester system. As another poster wrote, at Carleton be prepared to work harder than you imagined possible, for Bs(!), and have the time of your life doing it! Socially, Carleton does have a drinking culture, though perhaps a little less so than Bowdoin or Williams. Still, there seems to be no shortage of social options for non-drinkers, and plenty of snowball fights as well as broom ball and traying.</p>

<p>S also liked Bowdoin but felt more at home at C. Feel free to PM me for more specifics.</p>

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<p>Agree with the above that Carleton sounds like it would be a perfect fit! I do believe Carleton is on a different schedule, though - a trimester system. You can find out more about that [here[/url</a>].</p>

<p>I’d suggest going to the college-specific forums here on CC for each of the colleges under consideration and doing a search (of titles only - using the advanced search function) for the names of the other colleges. In other words, go to the Middlebury forum and do a search for Carleton, and vice versa. You will find dozens and dozens of threads with titles like “Middlebury vs. Carleton” - it will keep you busy for hours, and you’ll find plenty of input from current students who’ve had to make exactly the same choices your daughter is now facing.</p>

<p>Regarding the different academic calendar at Carleton, here’s a great thread:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1391543-does-college-calendar-affect-your-choice-school.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1391543-does-college-calendar-affect-your-choice-school.html](<a href=“http://apps.carleton.edu/admissions/office_blog/?story_id=691020]here[/url”>http://apps.carleton.edu/admissions/office_blog/?story_id=691020)</a></p>

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<p>Thanks for the advice. I am not very skilled at navigating this site so the instructions on how to do that will be helpful! </p>

<p>My D is flexible on the schedule.</p>

<p>I think we will have to go back to visit a few schools. I don’t want to offend the Williams folks because we did like it very much but I was surprised and concerned when I went on the tour at Williams and in the co-ed suite’s living space there were several pictures of scantily clad women. That does not bode well for respect for women but maybe I’m just an old feminist hippie. I don’t want to pass judgement on one visit so if there are folks out there who have information that would dispel my worries that would be great.</p>

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<p>Both my sons found that solo overnight visits (with no parents in tow!) really helped them get the feel of a college and a sense of how they would fit in (or not).</p>

8

<p>On Amherst:
<a href=“Amherst Account of Rape Brings Tension to Forefront - The New York Times”>Amherst Account of Rape Brings Tension to Forefront - The New York Times;

<p>[‘Hey</a>, Why Are You Such a Slut?’: More Amherst Rape Survivors Speak Out](<a href=“'Hey, Why Are You Such a Slut?': More Amherst Rape Survivors Speak Out”>'Hey, Why Are You Such a Slut?': More Amherst Rape Survivors Speak Out)</p>

<p>There are so many more. Google it if you are interested.</p>

9

<p>On Williams:
<a href=“http://williamsrecord.com/2012/02/22/college-reports-stats-on-sexual-assault/[/url]”>http://williamsrecord.com/2012/02/22/college-reports-stats-on-sexual-assault/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>There is a lot of discussion on this on certain cc threads.</p>

10

<p>One interesting fact about Carleton, unlike Amherst, Bowdoin, Princeton, or Williams (not sure about Swat) is that the college opened its doors in the late 1800’s and admitted women from the start. They have never been a men’s college, as the others have.</p>

11

<p>If you look at the back of the US News magazine that has the rankings, you can see what percentage of kids major in what subject.</p>

<p>Williams is 13% Biology</p>

<p>Amherst lists no sciences in this list.</p>

<p>Carlton also has a high percentage for sciences.</p>

<p>Bowdoin 8%</p>

<p>Swarthmore 12%</p>

<p>So this is just a hunch, but perhaps Amherst is not the way to go for your daughter. It appears to be more of a liberal arts school.</p>

<p>My impression is that the children of the super elite in America go to Williams, so the contacts she makes there could prove invaluable. However, I understand that it is also a bit of a jock school.</p>

<p>Best of luck on Princeton. I would think that she would have to select Princeton if she gets in. That’s a grand slam home run.</p>

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<p>You can get data on how many degrees are granted for each major by looking up the schools here: [College</a> Navigator - National Center for Education Statistics](<a href=“http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/]College”>College Navigator - National Center for Education Statistics)</p>

<p>Summing the biological/biomedical and physical sciences majors gives the following:</p>

<p>Amherst: 53+21 out of 442 degrees = 16.74%
Bowdoin: 94+20 out of 452 = 25.22%
Carleton: 43+59 out of 472 = 21.61%
Williams: 45+35 out of 513 = 15.59%
Swarthmore: 58+19 of 375 = 20.53%
Princeton: 112+88 of 1248 = 16.02%</p>

<p>It is more important to dive deeply into the course offerings and research opportunities for your daughter’s specific major than to rely on these cursory statistics. Congratulations and good luck!</p>

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<p>Here’s another metric for science at LACs: [James</a> M. Gentile: Growing Scientists at America’s Top Liberal Arts Colleges](<a href=“HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost”>Growing Scientists at America's Top Liberal Arts Colleges | HuffPost College)</p>

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<p>Something seems off about the NCES statistics on Williams. Based on this information from Williams the number of students majoring in one of the sciences should be greater. Maybe its the double major percentage that’s affecting the figures. </p>

<p>

</p>

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<p>Beehoo, congratulations to your daughter on some great choices. Agree, that after all the acceptances are in your daughter should try to do some overnights to gauge which environment best suits her.</p>

<p>My son had a wonderful experience at Williams. He benefited from the balance among academics, extracurriculars and pure socializing. The academic pressure is intense but is alleviated by the emphasis on other activities – many of which take advantage of Williams’ insular community and profoundly beautiful natural setting. Plenty of midnight snowball fights – and tobogganing and broom ball.</p>

<p>I don’t know your daughter’s whole apply list, but I would say that Princeton, Williams, Amherst, Bowdoin, Carleton have many cultural affinities and attract a similar type of student – bright, serious, cheerful, confident, active, multi-faceted. Swarthmore seems to be the outlier here. I mean this from the perspective of the personality of the students, not the academics. Academically all are excellent, though I would give Williams the edge in the sciences.</p>

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<p>My D will be attending Amherst in the fall. She is interested in pursuing a science major. She has visited on more than one occasion, and really likes the campus and the town. She sat in on three classes in different disciplines (including a science class), and found the professors to be very engaging. We’ve discussed the environment at Amherst and are confident that the school is making positive changes.</p>

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<p>D grad from Carleton in science now at Harvard (less than 6% admit rate in field).</p>

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<p>These are all great schools- I know little about Carleton but Bowdoin, Williams, Amherst and Swarthmore all have strong science programs in general, and it will really be more about where your D feels she will most be successful. After much gnashing of teeth and some post acceptance visits, D ended up picking Bowdoin last year. She likes it because it’s a bit more laid back and very supportive, not ubercompetitive like Swat is and not quite as remote as some of the other schools like Williams and the food is way better than Amherst! It also has the rep of a very safe place that supports women. So it is really which schools have the vibe she wants- they all have great reputations and programs.</p>

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<p>All four of those schools provide tremendous educations. I feel confident in particular that your your daughter would be a great fit for Williams based on how you describe her. I’d try to do overnights if she can at all four in April to get a better feel. </p>

<p>I want to first address the concerns about sexual assault at both Williams and Amherst. It is ridiculous, frankly, to dismiss either school on that basis. The problem of, typically, drinking-inspired sexual assaults on college campuses is not unique to Williams and Amherst, and there is no evidence that this is more of an issue at either than at the other schools on your list (I’d almost guarantee there is no cultural difference at least between Williams, Amherst, or Bowdoin, the latter of which is known as a pretty big drinking culture, I know less about Carleton). I know what happened at Amherst got a lot of publicity, but there is an entirely new administration which has been working overtime to focus on this issue. Williams has also been really focused on this issue. If sunlight is the best disinfectant, kudos to both of these schools for addressing these issues (which, again, I guarantee are present at virtually EVERY college in the country) and for making addressing them a priority, rather than aiming to keep embarrassing facts in the dark. Not to say that Bowdoin or Carleton are doing the latter, just to say that if you think this issue is somehow endemic only to Williams or Amherst, or every disproportionally present vs. peer institutions, just because more light has been shed on it, you are kidding yourself. It’s sort of like saying, well, there was a student murdered at Yale a few years back, so we should not send our kid to Yale. Unfortunately, this is a college problem, not a Williams/Amherst problem, and in fact, if you check the news many similar stories / issues have sadly been coming to light at a wide variety of colleges and universities since the Amherst students were the first to, courageously, step forward. </p>

<p>Williams is also in no way, shape, or form a sexist place. Are there probably some guys who inappropriately objectify women? Of course there are (like anywhere) and it’s a bummer you encountered that. But that is NOT remotely the dominant culture of an institution in which female students are campus leaders in virtually every arena and certainly are overwhelmingly treated with dignity and respect. I encourage your daughter to talk to current Williams female students (or Amherst students) or recent alums if this is a concern, rather than relying upon Internet ■■■■■■. They are best-situated to provide an honest and informed perspective on campus culture.</p>

<p>Now, a few points on science. You should if you are not already be aware that Amherst is undergoing a massive 200 million dollar science project, which will be completed in four years. So there will be a ton of disruption to the science facilities (which already were a bit antiquated) during that time period, although once completed, the new facility should be spectacular and help Amherst’s science reputation going forward. </p>

<p>Williams is known among liberal arts colleges for its strong focus on math and science. Williams built a spectacular science facility of its own which was completed around a decade ago. The research opportunities offered by Williams to undergrads are really tough to beat.</p>

<p>Some more info:</p>

<p>[Spotlight</a> on Student Research | Williams College](<a href=“http://www.williams.edu/feature-stories/student-research/spotlight-on-student-research/]Spotlight”>http://www.williams.edu/feature-stories/student-research/spotlight-on-student-research/)
[Catalytic</a> Encounters - YouTube](<a href=“Catalytic Encounters - YouTube”>Catalytic Encounters - YouTube)
[Report</a> of Science at Williams | Science Center](<a href=“http://science.williams.edu/report-of-science-at-williams/]Report”>http://science.williams.edu/report-of-science-at-williams/)</p>

<p>I’ve heard Bowdoin is also strong particularly in the natural sciences. Again, I know less about Carleton.</p>

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<p>Of the schools on your list, carleton ranks highest in science phd production: [REED</a> COLLEGE PHD PRODUCTIVITY](<a href=“http://www.reed.edu/ir/phd.html]REED”>Doctoral Degree Productivity - Institutional Research - Reed College)</p>