An honest look at how Intel Finalists get there

Parents Forum
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<p>lefthandofdog: I had exactly the same topic in mind. The title could have been,"Is it possible to be an Intel semifinalist without connections?".....The student could compile data on the family, the position of mentors involved etc etc...do some statistical modeling and bingo here is a research topic.</p>

<p>I think the thread has three distinct flavors: (1) People whose kids don't do such stuff are mad (2) People whose kids do the stuff the hard way are appalled, and (3) people and kids, who have done only the grunt work with 'outside' help are trying to justify their trophy.</p>

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<p>Speaking of connections, let me add another interesting piece of info to the mix. Until very recent years, you had a better chance of being a semifinalist if one of your parents was a scientist. They literally added points to your score. This was told to me by a high-level science educator whom I trust completely. The reason? Well, by now we all know that the Intel is the "junior Nobel prize." The competition likes to be able to show how many of its winners grow up to be scientists. You are more likely to grow up to be a scientist if one of your parents is a scientist. You get the logic.</p>

<p>True, nothing is fair. We all know how the whole college admissions process reflects historic injustices. However, this thread did not start out as an attack on the Intel competition or on students who participated across the country, including many on these boards. It started out with quite a few of us being upset by certain quotes we read in this morning's NY Times. Personally, that's still where I'm parked.</p>

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<p>Plmok: the point has been made over and over on this thread that the issue is not the use of mentors, but the misuse as presented in this article, where it seems that the ideas, project design, methods, and background knowledge all seem to have been given to these students, rather than originating with them.</p>

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<p>I am glad that most people on this thread are able to express their opinions in a mature and calm manner. As for those who only know how to disagree by being offensive......... :eek:</p>

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<p>and having a legion of grad students helping, great research papers to look at, unparalled equipment...its almost like in some cases the students act a "beards" or fronts....interesting that the work involved in making a "student" project seems to require a college lab, a college mentor, a college staff, a college support systems that appears in some cases to go beyond mentor _To serve as a trusted counselor or teacher, especially in occupational settings.-</p>

<p>Intel Young Scientist 2004 - Organised by STANSW</p>

<p>Get yourself a mentor</p>

<p>What's a mentor you say? Usually it's a person who knows more than you about your particular topic and is willing to share what they know with you. Having a mentor is a wonderful way to increase your learning while doing a scientific investigation. Your mentor can be a parent, grandparent, older sibling, neighbour, nurseryperson or pharmacist, etc. - just any adult who knows something about your area of interest. It doesn't have to be someone you know, it can all be done by email. You can communicate with someone at a university or museum, even an overseas institution. You may be able yo find a scientist who works in the area you are investigating who is willing to guide you in the right direction. Make sure you let your parents and teacher know who your mentor is.</p>

<p>When you ask someone to be your mentor, tell them you are looking for someone who will listen to your ideas, give you advice and helpful hints to make your investigation more worthwhile. Most importantly make sure you tell them you will be doing all the work. What you want from them is to be able to ask questions or discuss what you have achieved so far. Most adults are delighted to assist a student who is willing to do the hard work especially if it allows them to tell you more about something they know lots about.</p>

<p>How to find a mentor? It may be relatively easy once you start talking to people and working out what you want to do. But if you are having problems finding someone who knows about your topic, use the internet. Do a search for your topic and see if you can come up with perhaps a researcher in that area. It is easy to get contact email addresses from the internet these days. All you need to do then is email the person, or their department, and ask if there's someone there with whom you could communicate while you are doing your project.</p>

<p>Make sure you let your mentor know about how you are going to conduct your study, they may have useful advice to offer. When you have got your results, let them know how the study went and what your findings were. Finally, it is really important to acknowledge any assistance given to you during your project so be sure to acknowledge your mentor.</p>

<p>That is what a mentor is suppposed to do.....</p>

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<p>Deleted by Moderator.</p>

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<p>Well plmok, don't be personally insulted, because Simba was not referring to *your * science project. Many posters here are parents with multiple Master's and Phd. degrees, in the sciences, and not as you say:

We all know that there are some "projects" out there that have very little student input. No one here has said that every Intel participant has merely been a gopher. But when you read the comments in the original news article, it makes you wonder about a few. </p>

<p>It looks like you worked very hard on a science project, and took the comments personally.</p>

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<p>I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. If "such stuff" is having a mentor PROPOSE a project, then we are definitely in the category (1), "people whose kids don't do such stuff." But I'm not angry yet. (I'm not "mad," either, in either sense of that word.) My son did stuff the hard way (category 2), but I'm not appalled yet either, because I desire EVIDENCE (I think like a scientist) and I don't know how representative of the whole program the anecdotes recounted in the news article are. We haven't won a trophy [sick grin], so we couldn't possibly be in category 3, and I am sure that my son did nothing whatever unethical, and nothing whatever even dubious in his science fair project. He did all the grunt work, and he did all the thinking work too. He learned some things about the process of science, and he learned some things about putting together an exhibition booth. And he learned that the judges in our region are daft for projects about environmental protection, with which his project had nothing to do. </p>

<p>So I think there is a fourth category, at least, of participants here, namely people who are reserving judgment (an important scientific attitude) until they have more data. I think some of this year's Intel finalists are the real deal--partly because in one case I have been following the young person's study career for years. I also have no idea how generalizable conclusions about the Intel program are to the newer Siemens-Westinghouse program, and note that the regional science fairs have their own independent administrations that may not all think alike. </p>

<p>P.S. to another participant: there are a lot of science fair projects that involve experimentation on human subjects, or asking human subjects survey questions. ALL of them must be approved by an independent review committee, and there are detailed safeguards in place for projects that involve human subjects, including, of course, consent forms. My son's project did not involve human subjects (whew!) but it did involve fire, and that meant going through a safety review before he could do any experimental runs. </p>

<p>P.P.S. The moral my son draws from the P.S. is that the best kind of project to work on is computer simulation or pure mathematics--something such that the child investigator can run a lot of experiments without a lot of red tape. And, sure enough, this year one Intel finalist whose name I have known for years did a successful project on pure mathematics.</p>

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<p>Pretty good publicity for my grand ole college, Stony Brook University. I think they set a great precedent for other universities around the country/world by letting high school students into the lab. They get some credit for the work, they let a kid pursue a very interesting and challenging subject, and they bring publicity and recognition to their school.</p>

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<p>Good publicity, Ilcapo? </p>

<p>It seems that not everyone shares the same values when it comes to intellectual integrity. For some the line that separates honest work and organized cheating is easily crossed. </p>

<p>Is your comment just a coincidence?</p>

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<p>Sorry, I just read the article and not all 7 pages...I think I must have missed the heated debate. Anyway, I simply took from the article that this appeared to be alot of publicity for a school that is largely unrecognized - not really much more than that. Anyway, back to the cocoon for me - just thought it was interesting to see SBU pop up. Bye.</p>

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<p>There might be yet another small irony in all this discussion. Stony Brook is recognized as a premier research university with top notch graduate programs in the sciences. They are working at becoming more undergrad-friendly (and seem to have a gem of a president). I wonder how receptive the professors there are to their own undergrads engaging in the same experiments/projects. Is there active undergraduate research taking place, too?</p>

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<p>tokenadult: You sold me.</p>

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<p>I’m late back into the conversation. I’ve really learned a lot reading through most of these posts though Aparent, Tokenadult, Chocoholic, samba, garland, marite, voronwe, texastaxi, citygirlsmom, texas137, mstee, etc.
It’s really amazing to read such well written and insight-filled comments. This forum is an unbelievably deep resource of wisdom and intellect.</p>

<p>I think that the science fairs, in general, are an invaluable opportunity for kids interested in science to taste the fruits of research, the thrill of success and the expectation of having that research/effort validated by experts in the field. That is why it needs to remain in high school unless we give carte blanche to universities across the US to all high school students, so that any and all high school students can dream of participating in scientific research and being validated for having done it. Isn’t that the point of science fairs? Not coming up with the next cure for cancer or solving an otherwise unsolvable equation, but for the enrichment of our children on their road to adulthood.</p>

<p>If these science fairs become the domain of only those who can afford to go to schools that will accomplish for students what they could not have done on their own, such as Ward Melville, the whole concept of fair competition at science fairs will evaporate becoming a clique for those who are looking for a few more awards to ensure their child will get into their elite school of choice, rather than for the pure research of science.</p>

<p>It’s pretty much an open secret that the only kids who have a remote chance at the fairs come from elite privates and the occasional hyper-wealthy public; and not because they have the only smart kids or the only motivated kids.</p>

<p>We just attended the Jersey Science fair, the audience was composed of 80-90% elite private school kids—and they won almost every award (about 6 schools, with a smattering of publics, like my daughter).</p>

<p>These things need to be opened up not constricted by doctoral work unavailable to 90% of the motivated and knowledgeable science loving kids in the country.</p>

<p>I love the idea of science fairs, I would just like them to be….well, fair.</p>

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<p>Wow, the mods have had a busy night on this thread....lots of unhealthy comments edited. </p>

<p>It's interesting how one group here feels that there are some science projects that have been polluted by adult domination, while another group just knows that every science project has been the student's idea, done with only minor intervention. </p>

<p>It would be great if these professors and grad students went out to the underpriveleged schools, not too far from Stony Brook, that cannot even keep a good science teacher, and lit up those kids' eyes with the wonders of science.</p>

<p>And let the priveleged students get "mentored" by their H.S. teacher, in their school lab, which would be Fair Science.</p>

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<p>I don't know why you guys are getting so heated up about this. If your kids are destined for greatness, it will happen Intel fair or not. But the Intel finalists do have an excellent track record with their futures as scientists and they could not have become finalists without their work being genuine.</p>

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<p>I've just skimmed the many pages of this thread and wanted to highlight a comment made by "aparent5." S/He observed that historically, points were added to your score if you had a parent as a scientiest. The Intel finalist from our local town is the son of two Ph.d.s in chemistry. Dad is a full professor in chemistry at a Big 10 university. Dad and his brother (the finalist's uncle) BOTH were Intel winners! Access, connections -- an genes! This kid clearly has the talent and will probably be a brilliant scientist. But I know several kids who are probably more talented in science who never had a chance in this competition because they didn't have the same type of lab access or connections.</p>

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<p>I sent an e-mail to Ed Mike - the auother of the NYT story and asked him he could also share his non-published observations.</p>

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<p>"And let the priveleged students get "mentored" by their H.S. teacher, in their school lab, which would be Fair Science" </p>

<p>I consider myself to be priveleged - nice suburban high school, etc. And I went to college without knowing squat about what science was. High school teachers are equipped to teach; very few have significant research expertise. You are making a huge, huge assumption (a common one on CC) - that kids from relatively well-off families are going to have the resources they need to learn how to do real science (not real in the sense of high-tech; real in the sense of the thought process).</p>

<p>I mentor students at a local high school in Cambridge (I suppose some qualify as underpriveleged) with their science fair projects; most of what I bring to the table, as a graduate student, is the experience I have thinking critically about scientific problems - experience that helps me point out potential problems to students and, more importantly, to approach problems in a critical fashion. I have always hated high school science fairs; however, if they are to be done, I think these projects should always be done under some kind of mentoring. Science is a field based on mentorship and teamwork. More importantly, without some form of outreach, the science fair becomes a test of who's parents understand science the most. Even if they aren't doing the project, the fact that they can answer basic questions is giving people a distinctive edge already. </p>

<p>The most obvious way to level out the playing field between students taking advantage of university resources and students who don't is to develop categories of entries based on whether the topic is experimental or theoretical, and then, within the experimental category, to have two or three tiers of "project budget."</p>

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<p>“If your kids are destined for greatness, it will happen Intel fair or not”</p>

<p>Achat, I don’t know if that is the issue, greatness, I mean. Healthy satisfaction and curiosity I think are the more operable qualities. It is not just Intel, but the downward pressure it creates through all science students.</p>

<p>Science fairs have become the private domain of the well-off, well-funded and exclusive schools throughout the country in part because of this downward pressure. Of course, this has probably always been true to a lesser degree in the past, but now, it is not just genes and better facilities in a public/private high school, it is metastasizing into a monster that involves doctoral projects with coteries of grad students, professors, private and university labs “creating” award winning projects well beyond the abilities of a 16-17 year old scientist/student. </p>

<p>The point of the science fairs was to get more students involved in science, not less. In my daughter’s high-school she and two friends were the only two students to enter the state science fair over the last two years—and they are all now seniors, no juniors or sophomores entered a project. My daughter was the only one to win a prize of any kind in three years. Her science teacher said he does not expect that any kids will enter projects next year because the awards are already pretty much sewn up by certain schools whose student’s do doctoral level work—with facilities and “mentoring” that would be the envy of a grad student with a research grant.</p>

<p>On the other hand, if this is seen as a positive trend, it should remain as it is or even become more stratified and exclusive.</p>