<p>There is no reason to apply to any school you wouldn’t be thrilled to attend.
This can’t be emphasized enough.
I don’t understand those who just throw a couple instate schools on their list without thinking about it, anymore than I understand students who apply to all of the ivy league schools.</p>
<p>It is four years out of your life & a big hunk of money- why not give it some thought?</p>
<p>“I don’t understand those who just throw a couple instate schools on their list without thinking about it,”</p>
<p>Where do you get your safeties from?</p>
<p>If live in a state with good IS schools then that’s where you get your safeties. We lived in Nj when D1 was applying, and we did just throw it in as her safety. It was only after she got accepted when she visited that she cried about not able to see herself there. We clearly made a mistake there.</p>
<p>For D2 we took a little bit more time in choosing her safeties. I think she had just as many safeties as high reaches. We also made sure to tell her not to fall in love with any school. There was no talk of “it would be great if you could get into…” it was too painful for D1.</p>
<p>We went to a state science competition yesterday, and much of the talk was about who was accepted/denied at various colleges. Most of the parents seemed somewhat shellshocked at how few acceptances the unhooked, smart, accomplished kids received - even the tippy top students. It seems to me that the kids who have something eye catching in their application do a little better - when grades/scores/ECs all blend together, a genuine, demonstrated interest in something that is a little out of the ordinary seems to really help. That said, most of these kids were rejected/waitlisted at well over half of the schools they applied to, and most were left with two good or great choices. So, a student who is in a position to choose between two schools they want to attend and they can afford has done very well, IMO. </p>
<p>There is nothing wrong with parents seeking whatever outside help or resources they need to navigate through this process - it’s a lot of money and a big part of their child’s life. There is nothing crazy or obsessive about being thoughtful and prepared when making such an important decision. No one would criticize someone for doing their due diligence when buying a house or making any other major decision/purchase, so why should college admissions be off limits? That said, it is sad that many kids don’t have the help or support of their parents, and many of these kids don’t do as well in admissions. I think CC really helps parents and students, unfortunately many find it too late in the process, so they end up scrambling at the eleventh hour, like the OP.</p>
<p>I’m going to jump into this discussion to recommend a new book out that was written by Neurotic Parent, entitled, Neurotic Parents Guide to College Admissions. ( [Amazon.com:</a> The Neurotic Parent’s Guide to College Admissions: Strategies for Helicoptering, Hot-housing & Micromanaging (9780983459415): J.D. Rothman: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Neurotic-Parents-Guide-College-Admissions/dp/098345941X]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Neurotic-Parents-Guide-College-Admissions/dp/098345941X) ) It IS an insane process, and I do think as a country we need to take a bit of a chill on what defines successful college admissions. This book is hysterical and all too accurate while also giving some good advice (and using quite a bit of quotes from College Confidential).</p>
<p>I don’t think all colleges “like” a well packaged student and I think some of these who game the system by lying or planning themselves to fit perfectly to a list are missing a good part of becoming who they are vs who they are required to be. I think there will probably be more backlash over the long haul of that approach. Some kids however also don’t have access or have inadequate access and there are tons of families who would be better served by having a more neutral party help them. So I don’t think anyone should necessarily criticize how someone else goes about it, especially when their results are fairly irrefutably successful from a multi-student perspective. The most important thing I’ve learned over this third kid is that every year someone says it’s the most difficult year ever for college admissions in the history of the world, and from what I can see, it’s not that the numbers and GPA’s are going up, it’s just the numbers of kids applying. And frankly, if you all start packaging your kids by some route method, it’s going to get even harder to differentiate oneself! Anyway… everyone does the best they can. CC is great because you can take what applies to you or not. </p>
<p>I just suggest we all just find the humor a title bit more. I honestly believe this should be required reading… [Amazon.com:</a> The Neurotic Parent’s Guide to College Admissions: Strategies for Helicoptering, Hot-housing & Micromanaging (9780983459415): J.D. Rothman: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Neurotic-Parents-Guide-College-Admissions/dp/098345941X]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Neurotic-Parents-Guide-College-Admissions/dp/098345941X)</p>
<p>One needs to also consider finances which is where state schools come into picture. Those are able to pay fullfare at 60k have different choices for safeties than those who can only meet a 10-15k price tag which are usually only possible with in state schools.</p>
<p>Texaspg - I don’t agree with you. I think if you really understand financial aid and the resources some of these private schools offer, sometimes the biggest reach can also prove to be a financial safety. It’s not an easy route to go, but I am amazed at some of these programs. A lot of kids choose the honors route, EA, and fall in love with the safety who offers quite a bit of merit and good financial aid packages. State schools are not always the least expensive option. But it takes a lot more research and parental involvement before you even make a list of schools to apply to.</p>
<p>Kids have to choose well, then make their package compelling to the reviewers at that college. That’s academics, the personal qualities, and matching yourself to that school. At the final round, then there’s some luck of the draw, if there’s immense competition in their major or from their home area. Or, on the (very) rare occasions when some random kid plays the tuba and the band needs a tuba player next fall.</p>
<p>The sad thing is that even great kids are still only kids. They are only 17, they are trying to make a very limited picture make sense to kid-savvy, intelligent, stranger-adcoms at a competitive college that doesn’t owe them anything. These kids only know their own high school lives, what made them popular, what got them out of trouble, what impressed hs teachers, etc. Many have no college perspective. </p>
<p>I don’t like to blame parents because not all kids have savvy parents. Not all kids are open to the suggestions from a wise adult. There’s so much chatter and media hype about the whole process (hype sells books, fear sells.) Whatever book garners media attention is probably carefully structured to take advantage of fears- ie, to sell. Not necessarily 100% accurate.</p>
<p>I always say, think like an adcom at a top private. They want to know they are picking a secure bet, as best they can- and that the kid offers more to that particular college than just gpa and scores. Some sense of maturity, ability to tackle challenges, creativity, social skills, interesting interests, etc. The ability to climb out of the “same old” hs profile. The ability to be part of what makes that college great- and that’s more than classroom skills and test scores. And, when they’re staring down 20-30,000 applications, plenty of kids do just that.</p>
<p>ps. I am sure many kids get more help on their apps than is really ethical. I’m torn about this. They need help, but should do as much on their own as they can. But remember, unlike hs, where teachers get to know you, where they often forgive a strong kid’s small errors because they see a larger picture, all adcoms have to go on is the app package. It’s a snapshot.</p>
<p>Modadunn - I know where you are going with it but please bear in mind that for every CPU we know (+5 others), there are 94 kids who did not make the cut at Harvard! If we use US income profile as a baseline, 90% of families will meet the FA need requirement at Harvard but by the same token, 94% are getting rejected.</p>
<p>For lotto winners, the reach can be a financial safety but people do have to hedge their bets.</p>
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<p>I don’t think people need a perfect app to get into a top school. I’m not proud to admit this, but I sent in the wrong copy of a draft for my common app essay for three schools. It wasn’t done, and there was a pretty glaring formatting error. Surprisingly, I got into all three schools I applied to with the essay.</p>
<p>This thread made me curious to see how much the process has changed from the time my own kid applied to college with the stats just released this week.</p>
<p>Daughter applied RD class of 2008 and was accepted everywhere she applied with 7 applications. However, many old timers on te board would remember this year as the Yale (EA) massacre.</p>
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<p>Class of 2015 (last year)</p>
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<p>Class of 2016 -released earlier this week</p>
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<p>The article goes on to mention the admit rate for some of the other Ivies:</p>
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<p>Year over year there have been more applicants applying to schools in record number and the number of seats in the class has not radically changed.</p>
<p>You can also look at the _______________(insert school here) common data set to see how the class profile has changed year over year.</p>
<p>@ OP: A gap year is an excellent option. I personally am just finishing up one, and I’ve gotten to do incredibly cool things that I would never have had the chance to do if I had still been in school. However, be aware that taking a gap year and re-applying may not necessarily change your child’s admissions outcome, especially if he/she is applying to the very top schools. </p>
<p>During my first round of admissions (for the Class of 2015), I applied to HYPSM, Columbia, and Penn, as well as four UCs (Berkeley, LA, San Diego, Irvine) and the University of Toronto (I’m a Canadian citizen). I was rejected from the Ivies except for a waitlist at Columbia (which I ultimately was not accepted to), but got into all the UCs and U of T. I also was named a Regents Scholar at UCI and got a $5K scholarship at U of T that supposedly only goes to the top 350 entering students. </p>
<p>I just got done with my 2nd round of admissions with completely new essays that I actually tried my best to portray myself in. I honestly didn’t think I had done my best in terms of conveying the many different aspects of my personality in my applications from last year, so I thought re-applying was worth a shot. There were 5 repeat schools on my list this year (Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia, Penn), and 5 new ones (Brown, Amherst, Dartmouth, Duke, McGill). This time, in spite of having written new essays (also about newer experiences!) and getting new recommendations, I was still rejected everywhere except for Dartmouth and Duke (waitlists) and McGill (accepted).</p>
<p>But I definitely still don’t regret taking a year off. It proved to be highly beneficial for me physically and mentally. I believe my admissions results were also influenced by the fact that I was an international (non-US citizen) applying for aid at many of my schools, which is never a good combination. If your son/daughter doesn’t fit into these categories, then he/she may have more success than I did re-applying to schools, particularly if he/she retakes the SAT. And even if things still don’t work out admissions-wise, the gap year is always a valuable experience. I certainly don’t regret mine. :)</p>
<p>This is the new reality for this set of selective schools. It does trickle down to the others as those applicants are applying to the next rung on the ladder of selectiveness. It is an awful sad trend in college admissions.</p>
<p>Texaspg - I am not even referring to CPU when I say that. In fact, there are a lot of schools far more in the middle where if you are a smart kid there is a great deal of consideration in the hopes the school “gets” you. The problem is that everyone thinks it’s an HYP proposition or bust. And the truth is, the Ivies and the NESCAC schools (Williams, Amherst Middlebury etc) don’t even offer Merit based aid. But for those who would be considered top drawer students at a school, these schools have a lot of “incentives” to go there. Add in need based aid (if you qualify) and you’ve got a great opportunity with the possibility of fewer loans. But people don’t necessarily like to dig that deep and/or the prestige of certain schools clouds their more rational sides. I know several kids for whom St. Olaf and Carleton became far better options than the University of Minnesota or the University of Wisconsin (where MN has reciprocity) and they had stats and the rest that would have made them a contender at a school like University of Chicago or Northwestern. But those schools are going to be fighting to get students who will decline their offer of admission for MIT or an Ivy etc. </p>
<p>I like the advice above - Sure you can apply to those reaches, but when you look at those schools likely to admit you, if financial aid (or merit because your family has a very high EFC) is a consideration, you’re going to want to look at the compromise and it doesn’t necessarily became state flagship, CC or nothing. </p>
<p>But mostly what happens is that parents come to the table too late to do the digging and for the students to do the wooing. Look at the Nod and Smile thread… everyone is so concerned with aiming high enough, when I am here to tell you that graduating with the least amount of debt possible is the way to go, especially with undergrad degrees.</p>
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<p>While you may not be a US citizen, pretty much every school on your list especially the Ivies, are need blind to international students (most have the following categories: US citizens/permanent residents, Canadian and Mexican Citizens and International students). I doubt that you were placed at a disadvantage because you are Canadian.</p>
<p>And to answer Sybbie -</p>
<p>I think the process keeps evolving and has gotten completely out of control. I think the idea that you “have” to have this or “Should” have that starts making every single one of this high achieving kids look alike. Travel abroad, Forensics, GPA’s, AP’s, Standardizes Tests, glowing recommendations, etc. How do they even differentiate? And then, you have so many kids just rolling the dice for the lottery schools that they are missing a lot of others.</p>
<p>Someone mentioned a few pages back that the common app limits you to 20. Is that per version of your application or per login name and password? Cause I am more than sure you could figure your way around that one unless they track it by SS# or something (and then it wouldn’t apply to internationals since they don’t have SS#)</p>
<p>If you get the opportunity, I would recommend that you read The Overachievers by Alexandra Robbins.</p>
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<p>I think that if you truly believe that only students with the highest gpa/test scores “deserve” to attend top schools, then you have a myopic view as what elite college admissions should be. Keep in mind that Harvard or any other really selective school is not at a loss of students applying who have perfect SAT scores, extremely high GPAs, number one class rank and unbelievably great extra-curricular activities (this could be subjective because at what you and your school may see as unbelievaly great Harvard/name your selective school could consider to be nothing special). </p>
<p>Since this same topic comes up every year, this time of year with repeat performances in the spring, I am going to recommend a few threads for you to reveiw so that you will see that there is nothing new under the sun. </p>
<p>**My Dinner With An Admissions Officer **</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/118616-my-dinner-admissions-officer.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/118616-my-dinner-admissions-officer.html</a></p>
<p>He believes way too many people are overly preoccupied with GPA’s and standardized test scores. He believes these are almost always bright line tests, rarely anything more. Exceed the threshhold and the REAL review begins.</p>
<p>Most colleges today are concerned about putting together a well-rounded community and are not necessarily looking for well-rounded individual students. The elite colleges truly want “superstars” in many of the niche fields and EC’s. Having said this, students who are well-rounded at a VERY HIGH LEVEL never go out of vogue. </p>
<p>**Just How Hard Admission Can Be **
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/116204-just-how-hard-admission-can.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/116204-just-how-hard-admission-can.html</a></p>
<p>Admissions stats provide a reality check - even very high-scoring students have a low probability of admission at some schools. </p>
<p>“Whoever has the most APs wins”</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/97255-whoever-has-most-aps-wins.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/97255-whoever-has-most-aps-wins.html</a></p>
<p>Post # 49 by Ben Jones, College Rep for MIT is definitely worth a read:</p>
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<p>That common app has made it too easy to apply to numerous schools beyond reason. I have seen one person on these forums apply to more than 35 schools. Shameful, really.</p>
<p>^ Sybbie719: totally agree with the message/info in 158.<br>
But, the “plain old accomplishments” are not decorating for the prom or founding the pie club or being in one walkathon. The keyword really is “substance.” </p>
<p>The logjam that leads to single-digit admissions starts with the number of apps. You’ve got to remember, the more applications, the more these schools can cherry-pick.</p>
<p>Sybbie – schools that were once need-blind to Internationals might no longer be since the financial implosion of 2008. In fact, some who pledged no loans (Amherst & Williams maybe?) backed off of that for the class of 2009. I don’t know if they went back to international need-blind and no loans, but quite a few schools did change slightly due to the economic woes of their endowments following 2008.</p>