Angst over schools, great scores, ehh grades

Applying to College
1

<p>So, my kid had a 2100 on the PSAT, in line with ACT scores he took when he was 12-13 with progression. Yes, he was in this gifted thing through Northwestern.</p>

<p>But, right now his unweighted GPA is about 3.1, weighted 3.7. He has been taking AP courses since last year and has received 5's. If you lobbed off the writing portion of the test he had about what would equate to a 1550. He is exceptionally strong in Math and Science and wants to go into Economics with a concentration in applied math.</p>

<p>He's done the sports thing, community service, blah blah. And we moved from Chicago to California. He's also been the big man at home from time to time because of my heath issues. He finds coloring maps below his intelligence, therefore, homework has always been an issue. The knucklehead get's A's on tests but can be bothered with the mundane.</p>

<p>For book reports he uses books like Democracy in America, Weath of Nations etc. He reads Economics textbooks for fun.</p>

<p>I am unfamiliar with West coast schools and have been told by his counselor at school to not bother with UC's, Stanford, Clairemont schools, or anything competitive from what I can tell. She told me to show him Northern Arizona.</p>

<p>Somebody tell me she's wrong....</p>

2

<p>Counselors are always hard to deal with. (well, not mine right now, but my previous one). They cannot accurately judge your child, especially if your son goes to a larger school, in which case, it’s hard to get to know students. However, your son’s GPA is kind of low, and colleges who look at his academic record will probably think: here’s a really smart kid who has great test scores and a great (i’m just assuming :)) essay, but his transcript isn’t stellar, so we’re thinking he might be lazy (again, i’m not at all saying your son is lazy. i’m pretending to be an admissions officer). Anyways, he runs the risk of having colleges think of him in that way. </p>

<p>But Northern Arizona is pushing it too much (I didn’t even know this school existed?) I think your son can definitely apply for the UCs and have a pretty good chance of getting into many of them. Especially since you now live in California, because the UCs give priority to state residents, as with any state school system.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

3

<p>Try some liberal arts colleges if you can afford it. I would say he has a fair shot at UCSC, UCSD even at least. </p>

<p>I would have him choose safeties in the CSU system. I would consider CU Boulder a shoo-in for him, given he works on his app. </p>

<p>I would give, maybe as a reach UChicago a try. It’s the kind of place that fits your son’s description “reads economics textbooks for fun” - he just needs to get that across in the interview (which he MUST ask for). UChicago’s App has something like 3 essays total, so he has the room to show his skill there. It’ s amazing for economics so… you can’t go wrong. 3.1GPA is low, but if he just gets it up to 3.5 UW as a minimum he can show that he became motivated. And dispell the “lazy” image unis might get.</p>

<p>so to conclude: </p>

<p>reach: UChicago, UCLA,
range: UCSD, CU Boulder (safe-ish), UCSC
Safe: any CSU school. </p>

<p>look at some LACs?</p>

<p>I’m just a kid - so maybe i’m being optimistic… but still his counselor seems OVER-pessimistic.</p>

4

<p>Thanks for the encouragement. He’d die if he knew I was working behind the scenes, but I just want to find a school for him that he is comfortable with and has some reasonable chance of getting in.</p>

<p>The “lazy” factor does concern me and I’ve voiced it to him, so a school where he can interview probably would be best. He understands the difference between the Chicago theory of economics and coastal theories and go into great detail about that stuff. Whatever…</p>

<p>In all seriousness, he has had the hardest curiculum of any high school student I’ve ever met. And we know many Stanford, Harvard, CalTech types that didn’t take what he has in high school. For example, he finished 4 years of Spanish last year and now is taking Latin for the next two. He’s already done with AP Calculus and AP Statistics.</p>

<p>He clearly wants to go to Claremont McKenna. Any CMC people out there with some wisdom?</p>

5

<p>what about Northwestern? he could definitely consider that, if he wants, of course.</p>

<p>claremont mckenna is excellent. unfortunately, i know naught about that school. good luck!!</p>

6

<p>I assume that your S is a junior, and that he’ll be applying next year.</p>

<p>As a California resident, acceptance to most of the UCs is by formula – ranking in his high school class. It’s very different for UC Berkeley and UCLA, and the honors programs in some of the UCs. Assuming he ends up with high SATs (as you predict) he should have the grades and scores to get into some of the UCs. UC Merced, for example, has a relatively high acceptance rate for California residents. Most of the California State universities, where acceptance is mostly by formula for residents, should be matches for him, although he may want to reach higher.</p>

<p>That the guidance counselor is steering your S away from the likely state universities raises is a concern. It sounds like there is something about his performance/attitude that is not going well, and that he’ll find it hard to get good recommendations from the GC and his teachers. It is very very difficult to overcome poor recommendations.</p>

<p>If you can afford to, talk to a private college adviser. You can find one in most major California cities, and get an independent assessment. Your S should have time between now and the application deadline time next year to correct impressions and become a better candidate for California colleges – both public and private.</p>

7

<p>Humm from the courseload you describe he doesn’t sound completely lazy but I’m guessing you feel like he could do better at those courses with more work. CMC has a work hard play hard kind of theme. One way or another it would probably help for him to have activities, interests or accomplishments that reflect hard work. Leadership is another major theme in CMC. This doen’t have to be class president it can also be leadership in an independent venture. The grades are lower than typical for CMC so it would probably be important to show that he is a motivated self starter. Amazing standardized test scores would also help. It is such a small class that it is hard to say what might tip the scales.</p>

8

<p>Hmmm…my D’s grades aren’t that low but she IS the same type child. She was also in NW’s talent search for youth, performed in their top 2% and got invited there for her award…and they’re STILL recruiting her (she’s a senior now and did not apply there). So - think about Northwestern, if he’s still on their radar.</p>

<p>Also - he has time to help his GPA this semester AND show an upward trend next semester (again, clarifying, Junior).</p>

<p>Much depends on his work as it compares to the rest of his school…if it’s rigorous, then he should still be ranked high, correct? (someone mentioned a small class but I didn’t see how small). Because, at my D’s two high schools, MANY kids started APs ini 9th grade and MANY kids had 6 years of language. So it’s not abnormal, unless it is at HIS school. And colleges really want to see that they took the most rigorous options, so it sounds like he’s doing that. My own D was geared toward a major in music and let her academic grades slip (long story, more to it than that), but had an A-ha moment in 11th grade and REALLY dug in and pulled her grades up. She’s like yours - tests GREAT but oh those tasks that one must do EVERY SINGLE BORING day - blech. Unfortunately I can’t convince her that is exactly what colleges DON’T want to see. Life (college/work) IS a series of long dull boring daily tasks. </p>

<p>Good luck to him - Check for ADD/ADHD? I’m 100% CERTAIN my daughter has it in a HUGE way - but neither of us really believe in the medications. But, if you think it might help…and he has that much trouble concentrating/organizing…? LUCK!</p>

9

<p>Does he know what he wants to do after college? Sounds like he wants to go into finance, not necessary academic (like PhD in economics), right? If so, he needs to graduate from a school that’s recruited by those firms. Otherwise, it would be very hard for him to get a job. A school like Colgate is very different than Oberlin, even though both of them are good LAC (I only know East Coast schools). Colgate is a lot more pre-professional, and have very good record of helping students get jobs in finance. While you are visiting schools, stop in at their career center, ask them what companies recruit at their school.</p>

<p>Your son’s GPA is low for top schools like Northwestern. Even U. Chicago which is known for taking quirky kids would find 3.1 as low. Not to burst your bubbles, but it’s best to face reality now rather than disappointment later. Your son still has time to bring up his grades. Especially for boys, they are often late bloomers. It would be good to show a good upward trend. Unfortunately, he needs to suck it up and do the work (homework) to get As. Good test scores will not make up for low GPA (only up to a point). </p>

<p>If your son is determined, he should bring up his grades, get into best college he could get into, bust his behind to get the best grades possible then transfer to one of those target schools for finance.</p>

10

<p>You obviously have a smart son who’s had some growing pains. I think you should look for a good liberal arts college that will give him a fresh start and the chance to go to a good graduate program. Also, I assume that he’s only a junior, and there is still Junior Spring and Senior Fall to get some better grades. A positive trend will help tremendously. </p>

<p>I would apply to a bunch of rolling admissions schools early in the Fall just to get an acceptance and ease the pressure a little. Some of these may be Indiana and UPittsburgh. University of Arizona is also rolling, I think. He should get in there anyway. </p>

<p>However, I would save the bulk of the applications for regular decision so that they can consider his Senior grades. </p>

<p>Then I would carefully choose LACs by going down USNews list of liberal arts colleges. I’d use his in conjunction with data from [Free</a> College Search | Scholarships | College Admissions Requirements](<a href=“http://www.collegeboard.com%5DFree”>http://www.collegeboard.com). </p>

<p>For example, if you look at Beloit College, you will notice a couple of things. Their 25%-75% SAT range is Critical Reading (575 - 710), Math(560 - 670), ACT (24-32). They get plenty of students who score pretty well. Yet if you look at the “At A Glance Tab” and scroll down to Student Body, you see that your S is well within the grade range. This is very good school that obviously takes kids like your son. I would call it a match, meaning that there is a better than 50% chance of getting in, but it’s not a shoo-in. They are ranked pretty high on the list describing the percentage of students who eventually get a PhD. That is at least one measure of the intellectual level of a school. </p>

<p>There is also a book by Loren Pope called “Colleges that Change Lives” that describes a number of well respected liberal arts colleges. </p>

<p>I noticed that the schools that you mentioned are all western schools. Is he restricting his choices to schools nearby, or will his search be more national?</p>

<p>Closer to home</p>

<p>University of the Pacific (match)
Willamette (slight reach)
Reed (reach)
Pitzer (reach)</p>

<p>I wouldn’t rule out a place like Chicago and CMC, but It’s good to have a bunch of choices in varying degrees of difficulty. </p>

<p>Also, if your school uses Naviance, it’s a better predictor than anything else. </p>

<p>Good luck with the process.</p>

11

<p>Your son sounds a lot like my daughter. We quickly came to terms that the highly selective colleges aren’t going to look at her. Most schools that receive a lot of applications screen for the transcript first. That pretty much kills the opportunities for smart kids who are either immature, or don’t understand that the transcript is about performance of the mundane, and they should get over it.</p>

<p>That being said, we focused on small liberal arts colleges where she could interview. Our daughter is great with people, comfortable in her own skin and was able to very quickly tell the admissions counselors that her checkered transcript reflects her growing pains.<br>
She was very well received by them, and was honest and everyone was able to look at her stats in a new light.</p>

<p>She ended up getting into a large university that was her first choice, and that’s where she will go, but the interview process helped get through communicating that she was bright and ambitious.</p>

12

<p>Adding that my D will probably be attending her in state Uni, mostly due to GPA. But her GPA is good enough for THAT school to be offering LOTS of money. So I 2nd the person who said “fresh start”. That’s what she’s probably doing. Going to really go gangbusters to stand our locally…to try for a more elite school for graduate work. It’s really all they can do at this point. They made their bed and have to lie in it.</p>

13

<p>

</p>

<p>Bingo.</p>

<p>and also this:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>What I tell my high school students (and sometimes have to remind their parents, who have forgotten), is that that high school is job and life training, with college a higher level of that. I’m not so much interested in water-over-the-dam as in their futures. If you choose not to do something because “it’s boring” to you, you eat the consequences. Hey, paying bills is a mundane task that many people despise doing, and you’ll lose your car and be evicted if you don’t.</p>

<p>On the job, a brilliant, talented person is playing a very high-stakes game to wander into his or her major sales conference when not thoroughly prepared (“boring mundane task”). (And before that, for the job interview itself.) I’ve seen plenty of students who can skate by reasonably well in high school preparing very little for tests. College is a tad different. Much more volume to read, more to digest…and those nasty, boring, mundane tasks called papers to write. (Even math/science students have to do those.)</p>

<p>His writing proficiency will come up. If it doesn’t happen by h.s. graduation, the college will insist on it. I care more about study habits, because the other thing that would make me a rich woman for all the times I’ve heard it is, 'I’ll study better/care more about details/(fill-in-the-blank) when I get to college." Really? How about practicing that now.</p>

<p>I like ClassicRockerDad’s specific suggestions, all of them, both the ruled-in and ruled-out. He’s pretty spot on. Also what 181818 said.</p>

<p>I’ve also known CA students with similar profiles to the OP’s son that considered and attended No.Arizona. However, the UW 3.1 is not the question. (Those other candidates did not have significant, or any, weighting, to their grades.) It’s his UC gpa, which is not 3.1. If the UC gpa is closer to 3.4-3.7 then he’s in range for UCSanta Cruz & UC Santa Barbara (more of a reach), but the particular academic programs & opportunities may not be to his liking.</p>

<p>I also think that other out-of-states should be considered – Pacific Northwest as well as Arizona & Colorado.</p>

14

<p>my son sounds similar to yours. He graduated with a 3.3 weighted GPA and very good sats 2120. He had theatre has his passion and that really showed in his ec’s. in his essay he addressed his slackerism! He got into ucsc, ucsb, ucd, cal poly,u of oregon, and several cal states.waitlisted at santa clara. he got into his first choice-Loyola Marymount(also has rolling admissions) and is thriving. There are many boys like this out there-just not motivated in HS and don’t like to color! Finding a passion will help! It is very frustrating as a parent when you know how smart they are!</p>

15

<p>Unless I’m missing something,he’d definitely get into some of the lower UCs. Claremont,I doubt.</p>

<p>An interview is not going to make any college ignore his GPA. There are many brilliant kids who under perform, top colleges are not seeking them. The best predictor of how you’ll do in college is how you did in HS. And while his course rigor looks good, it’s nothing unusual at top colleges where kids who took college level linear algebra and MV calc and 2 languages are a dime a dozen.</p>

<p>So help him be realistic about his choices. How he ranks with the 3.1 is important to consider. If he’s not in the top 10% of his class, most top colleges are simply off the table.</p>

<p>Help him understand he’ll be a strong candidate for transfer or a top grad school if he plays the game in college.</p>

16

<p>Your counselor is wrong. I think the liberal arts colleges were made for kids like your son. They can be more holistic in their evaluations than the big state schools can often be (which doesn’t mean he shouldn’t apply!), most work hard on kids’ writing skills (something that small classes allow for), and the faculty like to mentor their kids. Take a look at Reed, which sounds like the right place for a smart kid with angularities. I’ve heard similar things about Hampshire and Bard. Colleges That Change Lives is a good resource too. CM is probably a long shot, but you never know-lots of schools will discount freshman grades, especially if your son shows an upward trend.</p>

17

<p>What? I would say don’t let the counselor dictate your school list. APPLY WHERE YOU WANT! Dream big if you want to. Go for it. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity.</p>

18

<p>Following on Post 16:</p>

<p>To the OP:
Go to the Bard website, search ‘Immediate Decision Plan.’ The key will be if he can get in the door without the indicated accepted student profile of “3.5 with history of achievement & motivation” bar. (If the 3.5 means weighted, for example; and/or if he aces the IDP day.)</p>

19

<p>A very nice father asked me to add my two cents on CMC. </p>

<p>Dadwantshelp, you’re right to think your GC is off. Just as your son dislike coloring maps, the CMC adcoms do not fill the freshman class according to a paint-by-the-numbers theory. Since they only admit about 800 students or less, the school has indeed become very competitive. One of the benefits of having a small pool of applicants (around 4,000) the readers and officers do look at the applications with great attention and with a keen for students who will contribute to their overall experience. For this reason, do not think that one “weakness” in the application will necessary doom your son. As in every school, CMCers will sit next to people who have perfect standardized scores, perfect GPA and more than a few who didn’t. However, very rarely will they wonder how someone passed the scrutiny of the adcoms. </p>

<p>While it is important not to dwell on the “stuff” that could preclude one to be admitted, it is more important to work on what will get you admitted. As many know, the reputation of CMC is built on its admitted affection for leadership qualities. However, the school also looks for intellectual curiosity, angular brilliance, and analytical prowess. Your son should take full advantage of the supplemental essay to show why he should be admitted. Without limits, the essay represents his chance to shine. If enrolled, he should not be surprised to have one of the teachers contacting him to discuss his essay! Fwiw, I have no doubt that this happens at other schools as well, and especially at competing LACs, but I know it DOES happen at CMC. </p>

<p>My recommendation would be for your son to try to do well in the classes that are important to him. With little benefit to applying ED at CMC, he should have a few more semesters to show an increasing performance. In this regard, make sure that his LOR won’t be an afterthought. Since you moved, you should not hesitate to seek support from both the new school and the old one. The worst that can happen is that they do not read all of them. As obvious as it may sound, make sure the application is spotless. </p>

<p>One last thing, if there is a concern about writing, please consider offering some help to your son. It is amazing how much can be accomplished in a few months with the help of true professionals and … a bit of dedication. </p>

<p>You have to trust the system. If it is meant to be, it will happen!</p>

20

<p>

</p>

<p>Maybe, but they still manage to come up with about the same percentage of high GPA kids as their peer schools:</p>

<pre><code>* 85% in top 10th of graduating class

  • 98% in top quarter of graduating class
  • 100% in top half of graduating class
    </code></pre>

<p>When you back out the hooked, what percentage do you think get in who were not in the top 10% of their class?</p>