<p>This is for all youse peoples out there who have actually had the very difficult (yet happy) problem of deciding between a BA/MD program and a top ivy league. Currently, I need to decide between USC Bac/MD vs. Princeton. I am receiving about the same amount of financial aid/scholarships from both, so money is probably not going to be the deciding factor.</p>
<p>Here's what I've got so far. I want to become a doctor, and I am 100% sure of that. The thing is the way to go about doing that. I can either have the security and comfort of knowing that I will have a med school to go to as a graduate, and Keck definitely is up there as a pretty damn good school. However, I could go to Princeton, experience a little more of the world, and then apply to med school in a few years.</p>
<p>I really am torn between these two, and I've heard many peoples' opinions regarding the issue. I just want to gather a little more info before I decide. Any info would be great...</p>
<p>P.S. Please do not post if you are simply going to say one school or the other...At least include some reasons. Thanks.</p>
<p>Hi azp-I said this before in another post, but I will write it again here. </p>
<p>I know of someone who gave up MIT for NU's HPME, and another person who gave up Harvard for UCSD's Med Scholars Program. I believe that these two examples illustrate how powerful a guarantee into med school is. I am partial to combined BA/MD programs because I don't think an ivy league education can assure anyone a spot into medical school. Think about how much you can enjoy the first four years of college, without the stress and uncertainty of med school admission. Besides, USC is an up and coming university, as is their medical school.</p>
<p>Ultimately, whatever you choose (you do have two great options!), you should be happy with your choice! Best wishes and good luck!</p>
<p>I have read these posts for months. I am a dad whose S is now in the same predicament. Excellent college vs 7 year med program. Fortunately, I am also a physician who had his own experience with med school admissions (although 27 years ago) and has also watched s's and d's of friends go through the pre med mill. Let me try to shed some light on your dilemma.
First... There are many excellent undergraduate institutions that send many of their premeds to medical school. The rates of admissions to medical school are reported during their on campus Q and A sessions and occassionally on their websites. Overall acceptance to medical school is hovering around 50%. This is a grossly overestimated number since it doesn't come close to accounting for those students that get "weeded out" in freshman bio, calculus, or if they get that far, organic chemistry. I know personally 3 very successful lawyers my age that all started college as premeds. I know innumerable friends of my daughter who are now in law school or business school as a result of their failed attempts to do well in pre med at college. These are students that never registered to EVEN APPLY to medical school. They all were excellent students in high school with high expectations and dreams of a career in medicine. These students went to Duke, Emory, Michigan, etc., their life long aspirations and expectations were dashed in less than one year at their "dream" school.
Second... There is this popular misconception that the combined programs won't afford you the same opportunities for residencies as a "better" medical school and that by attending a great and venerable institution like Duke or MITor Princeton, you may be afforded the opportunity if you do well, to attend Harvard, JHU, Wash U or Stanford Medical School. Again, everyone falls prey to the same faulty logic. I think you are all better served to just to buy a lottery ticket and pray. Medical school admissions is a crapshoot. Go to MDapplicants.com and look at the schools individuals are going to. In the end, so many thingsw will impact your eventual decision. I personally passed up a top 3 medical school to attend a school that was near my girlfriend (who is now my wife). I made the right decision and it hasn't effected my ability to have a very successful practice. In the end no matter where you go for med school, the best residencies go to the best students in each class, and that can be done at BU, and GWU as easily as Wash U. As a physician and head of a large subspecialty group, I can tell you that the last thing I look at when I scan a candidates CV is the college and medical school from which they came. I look at their fellowship and go backward from there. If you are at the top of your med school class, you will get the good residency, ditto for fellowship.
Third...Having the ivy league college experience is worth passing up a guaranteed med program. If you ask pre meds at any quality school in the country, they will all tell you that they have a much different experience than everyone else. While everyone is soaking in the culture and intellectual experiences of the diverse, eclectic environment that is called ivy league, the pre meds are studying and stressed out. When my D told me about the premed students taking sleeping bags to the library, I was amazed. If that is going to be your competition for a med school spot, then you will be very embarrassed when you will need to rationalize to yourself why medicine was really not for you, while always knowing that you succumbed to the pressure and the competition and got eliminated from contention like many before you. You will wish you never turned down that guaranteed spot to a good but not great med school.<br>
Fourth....nothing in life is guaranteed. The med school spot is about as close as you can get to a guaranteed MD. No one knows what may happen to you or your family or loved ones in the next four years that may preclude you from realizing your dream of a medical career. The illness of a loved one or even a bad case of mono could be enough to taint a semester's grades. The med school adcoms won't care.
Finally... It all comes down to passion. If your passion is to be a doctor, then to me there is no choice. Others have gone to foreign medical schools, learned foreign languages and waited to reapply year after year to fulfill their dreams of medicine. If a medical career is just a passing fancy of yours or just 'it seems like a good idea for now', then by all means go to the ivy and test the waters. There is no paucity of students who will jump into your spot no matter what hoops they have to jump through to get there.</p>
<p>Wow, msdoc! What an incredible post. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I can learn a lot from your advice and experience. Good luck to your son.</p>
<p>msdoc, thanks for your insight. Everything you have said is valid and well thought out. Hopefully, I'll be able to get a few more opinions during my spring break, and make a quick visit to Princeton before sending in my decision at the end of this month...</p>
<p>Do you actually consider an individual's undergrad institution and or grades in undergrad when evaluating a candidate's CV? If so, would a medical program in conjunction with a mediocre undergrad place one at a disadvantage in future years when looking for reidencies, fellowships...</p>
<p>thefamilydoctor,
In answer to your question, I do NOT consider an individual's undergraduate institution when I evaluate their CV. I have never seen indivdual grades on a CV. Any indication of how someone performed in an undergraduate school would be noted on an "honors and awards" section in their CV (i.e. Phi Beta Kappa, Honors scholar, etc). I am much more impressed with medical school honors than college honors and, of course the same holds true for residency. Being a 'chief resident' in a specialty that doesn't make everyone chief residents, holds particular weight for me since it indicates leadership and is a position usually designated to the most qualified resident(s). To answer the second part of your question...although there is a valid argument to be made that top tier medical schools get their students into better residencies overall, that does not mean that excellent students at so called mediocre or average medical schools don't get excellent residencies. A student who stands out in their medical school class will get those positions because their faculty will write great letters for them and they will have distinguished themselves within their peer group. By the time a physician is ready to begin their clinical practice, they have had at least nine years of training after college. That gives them a whole lot of time to distinguish themselves in their graduate and post graduate studies.The quality of their undergraduate institution only indicates to me that they were excellent high school students.</p>
<p>Why the heck would you want to go to an ivy league and work your a$$ off another 4 years...and maybe not even gain admission into medical school? 50% of all medical school applicants do not gain admission into any of the medical schools they have applied to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>
<p>YOU'L ALSO BE IN DEBT SOONER. "I want to be challenged" or "I am taking a course not related to my career path because it interests me" is all liberal BS that ivy leagues want to buy you into taking so they can take more money out of your pocket and turn you into leftists.</p>
<p>My wife did great in HS. She was on the waiting list the first year Yale accepted women. She went to Cornell as a pre-med. She didn't get into med school after college and wound up in Optometry. Our son wants to be an MD. just got accepted to Cornell and 4 ba/md programs. He's deciding which ba/md program he will attend. As a family we learned from my wife's experience.</p>
<p>If my interests are in academic medicine and clinical practice to different degrees i.e. 30 percent research, 10 percent teaching, 60 percent clinical, would I be better served by attending a top 10 medical school? For example, would you say that the University of Rochester School of Medicine is an excellent school for this type of goal? Or would a school like University of Michigan/Stanford/Duke/Wash U. be a better fit? </p>
<p>From what I've read and heard, U-M has a good mix of research and clinical opportunities whereas other schools are more one-sided (mostly research/mostly clinical). If I were just getting a job, I know it wouldn't be important where I went to undergrad or even medical school, but my goals are slightly different. I still want to be a regular doctor, but I want to incorporate research/teaching into my career. Thanks for your comments!</p>
<p>If you want to do clinical research, you can do it. The Physician-Scientist program is designed exactly for that. U of R is a great medical school. If you're in the bs/md program, don't waste your time risking of applying after traditional undergrad and expecting an acceptance from a top 10 school...it may be very well possible, but not worth it in the end when you could bypass all that and end up in the same place.</p>
<p>Your goals of incorporating research/teaching are not different at all. Many many doctors do that and you'll have plenty of opportunities to do that coming out of any medical school.</p>
<p>Thanks gangsta! That really does help because I was worried I wouldn't have the same opportunities if I went to Rochester. I'll keep your comments in mind.</p>
<p>hey azp,
CONGRATS!!!! I have to say that PRINCETON is the way to go, even though I love Case, and I grew up in Cleveland. Also, do you mind sharing your stats? SAT scores and any programs you did?
thanks</p>