<p>When considering undergrad vs grad school for the top conservatories I think you need to explore a lilttle more. I don’t believe that the grad school at Julliard or other elite conservatories are composed of only undergrads from those schools so there are teachers out there that send their students to the top level grad schools. I defer to those in the woodwinds partiuclarly oboe since all of the intruments are different, but this is very much the case in other instruments and voice. Can you research the undergrad vs grad experience of some high level players? </p>
<p>Singersmom - I’ve looked into that a bit, having taking a look at the oboe sections the top dozen or so U.S. symphony orchestras. It’s not just Julliard, but also Curtis. To be more specific, Elaine Douvas and Richard Woodhams. The numbers of undergrad/grad combinations in major orchestras where both degrees come from those two schools/teachers is somewhat staggering. And bringing Curtis into the picture narrows the field further because there’s a lot of oboe graduates from Curtis in major symphonies that never even pursued a masters. I’ve had conversations with woodwinds about this and her experiences pretty much reinforce everything I’ve either witnessed first hand or heard from my daughter’s teacher regarding the selective pedigree in the oboe world. That said . . maybe all instruments are that way. I admit that I know less about other instruments than I do about oboe so maybe that’s the way it is, but I don’t get that sense from talking to other, non-oboe parents.</p>
<p>redeye - I just sent you a (rather rambling) PM by the way</p>
<p>I am wondering if there are more entrepreneurial opportunities for strings, though a relative of mine plays the oboe and has had her own ensemble for decades. The point being, is orchestral work the only worthwhile goal? I really don’t know w/oboe so it is an honest question.</p>
<p>Wow, it appears that does make oboe a unique situation then. If that is the only career goal, then it looks like it is the only path. Kind of glad DD gave up the oboe for voice in 7th grade :)</p>
<p>DesignDad - Bard offers great financial/merit aid, and Elaine Douvas is listed as faculty. <a href=“http://www.bard.edu/conservatory/faculty/”>http://www.bard.edu/conservatory/faculty/</a> Of course, having her on the faculty doesn’t mean she teaches every student every week. You’d have to check it out.</p>
<p>Redeye41, Take your daughter for a lesson to Eastman and Ithaca and see from the professors her true potential level. Has she audtitioned and attended NYSSSA and worked with the Philadelphia orchestra members? They are great and really help a kid get a handle on where they are level wise. My son had great experiences there with the pricipal’s of the percussion section and was encouraged by them. What about the week long intensive camps at Eastman? Juilliard also has them. Get evaluated. Get your child known. There are quite a lot of kids from Central NY from very small districts that got out there during high school, met great teachers attended camps and are now in conservatories. It can be done but you have to put the face time in. My son is living proof. Very small school district, absolutely terrible music department. Yet, he is in his the Eastman studio he has dreamed of being in since he was 12. It can be done. You have to go do it… It was tough at times but totally worth it.<br>
Good luck. </p>
<p>@ SpiritManager
That EXACT thought crossed my mind while reading the Bard thread! I had already checked out how they handle teaching duties, and it’s not bad at all. Actually, one of the other professors from Julliard teaches at Bard as well, not just Douvas. Things that make you go hmmmmm . . . . .</p>
<p>@compmom and singersmom -
Yes, it definitely comes down to what exact path your kid has their sights set on.</p>
<p>Music is an expensive pursuit - as my son became more accomplished and committed at the HS level, costs increased as he sought better teachers farther away, purchased a quality instrument, etc. Making all-state his senior year meant auditions and travel to college programs.</p>
<p>The good news is that scholarship $ and tuition reductions help if they show talent - the bad news is it won’t cover housing and food, etc so debt is something you probably will have to deal with.</p>
<p>OP, I understand your frustration. It can be depressing to realize how few orchestra opportunities there truly are for woodwinds (I know, I was a bassoonist). To me, one of the best things about going to music school is realizing how many other opportunities there are - not just playing in a major orchestra. Many schools require a senior level class in entrepreneurship and creating your own opportunities. The kids who stick with performing after graduation are usually the ones who are creative and hard-working. Most of the professional musicians I know do a variety of things to make ends meet - chamber music, recording gigs, teaching, subbing, etc. A good friend of ours is a trombonist who is currently on tour with a rock star! Another friend, a cellist, plays mostly for film soundtracks. If your kid has the drive, then I wouldn’t worry too much about post-college opportunities. </p>
<p>ahh… So much to think about and I will respond… Tonight it’s off to Tanglewood on Parade…!!!</p>
<p>When I posted before I meant entrepreneurial opportunities for “oboe,” not “strings” (I was thinking about all the strings players I know who play in a variety of ensembles and settings while writing this). So here is my corrected post, sorry :)</p>
<p>“I am wondering if there are more entrepreneurial opportunities for oboe; a relative of mine plays the oboe and has had her own ensemble for decades. The point being, is orchestral work the only worthwhile goal? I really don’t know w/oboe so it is an honest question.”</p>
<p>I think megpom covered this really really well.</p>
<p>I compare this dilemma in terms of opportunities with dance. Many dancers don’t make a top spot in a top ballet company but find ways to dance in other companies, on Broadway, in modern or other genres, teaching, dance therapy etc. Many do day jobs and dance passionately. In some ways dance is worse in terms of pay. It seems that increasing numbers of dancers are remaining in academia for a long time these days, as one way to get funding (often focused on choreography). Musicians are in academia increasingly as well. The US needs more funding for artists!</p>
<p>A year or two ago there was a great article on the changing face of the music industry, including classical, with the Internet to share or sell, online fundraising, and a focus on entrepreneurial efforts. I wish I could find it now!</p>
<p>Focusing on the major orchestras as the goal may be part of the problem. First of all, there aren’t that many ‘major orchestras’, the type that are full time positions that pay enough to really live on, either on pay only or with teaching and such, it is probably in the realm of maybe 10 orchestras…and once people get into those orchestras they tend to stay a long, long time. Even where there are a relative large numbers of instruments (violin for example), openings are small. I don’t know what the average tenure is for a woodwind player in one of these orchestras, but I would bet it is probably measured in decades, the jobs don’t turn over much. While it is probably a dream job for many to get that high level orchestra job, it is also like being in IT and saying the only job for you is working for Google, when they hire relatively few people. The problem with saying if you want to study oboe, go to curtis or Juilliard, is the assumption that a high level orchestra job is the only path, or quite honestly, a likely one. It is directly akin to saying “only study violin at Curtis or Juilliard or Hochschool because soloists tend to come from those schools”, it is shooting for a very rare thing based on stats that may or may not be true. For one thing, it assumes that no matter how talented someone is, how well prepared, that the resume of being from Curtis or Juilliard is what gets you in, rather than being what is probably happening, that given the few positions available, and the level of students at those programs, they tend to like the way they play…</p>
<p>Like I said, it is analogous to being a violinist or pianist or cellist and think only being a soloist is a career. Violinists train as soloists, they learn repertoire, as if they are going to be, they do solo recitals as part of their training and so forth, but few even attempt that route. If you looked at who gets into the violin sections of major orchestras, a lot of them are going to come from ‘the top programs’, or have…which is another thing to keep in mind, a lot of the stats on people getting into orchestras is over a long period of time, and there is no way to know what the future will hold either, like with auditions to schools, there is no way really to predict the future, given how things are changing. I as a rule am not someone who encourages people to try studying music on a will of the wisp, I think if someone is going to try they need to be at a high level, good enough to get into a competitive program , maybe ultra competitive, but the reality of music is it is a crapshoot even for the kids who go to Curtis and Juilliard, there are a ton of Juilliard and Curtis trained oboists and other musicians who aren’t in the ‘big orchestras’, who have gone on to other music careers or other careers <em>shrug</em>…the point being that shooting for any one thing in music as the ‘only career’ is not the way to do it, the way to do it is assess where your talent is, if you think you can be among the best out there, and if so, then focus on getting to be as good as you can, keep all opportunities open, and see what happens. </p>
<p>Very well said, musicprnt. There is always that school or teacher that for whatever reason in a certain point of time seems to be the one feeding all the major spots in orchestras. It could be that they just got really lucky in the pool of students that they got for a few years–and that self-perpetuates so all the good students gravitate there because that is the ‘only way’ to get a top spot in an orchestra. Or, it could just be a coincidence. I have been watching the scenario for a long time, being the mom of a woodwind player. If you look at just a few ‘top’ jobs, maybe the Curtis-Juilliard-whatever is in current vogue-thing looks to be true. However, if you look at the big picture, students who are excellent players from anywhere with excellent training also win jobs–maybe not the major symphony, but only because there are not enough of those to go around. And, yes, there are so many more opportunities besides winning that orchestra job. Any instrumentalist going into music performance has to get beyond that narrow viewpoint of a career if they hope to have a go of it. As musicprnt so wonderfully stated: “The way to do it is assess where your talent is, if you think you can be among the best out there, and if so, then focus on getting to be as good as you can, keep all opportunities open, and see what happens”. Exactly. </p>
<p>My daughter is in Germany for a couple of weeks at the well-known (in some circles) Darmstadt Summer Course. It might help folks to take a look at the program (second link) to see some of the diverse things going on in the (global) new music world.</p>
<p><a href=“DARMSTÄDTER FERIENKURSE”>DARMSTÄDTER FERIENKURSE;
<a href=“DARMSTÄDTER FERIENKURSE”>DARMSTÄDTER FERIENKURSE;
<p>p.s. note the workshop entitled “The concert of the future is online.” Not sure I agree but wonder what the ramifications would be for the OP’s concerns (smile not showing)</p>
<p>Thanks everyone. I’m getting over my “bad mood” and looking toward the future and how we WILL make things work! I will definately look at your links soon compmom. Everyone here is so helpful! A while back I posted on a gap year and that’s still an option. As daughter sees it if she can’t get some decent merit after 7 months of intense study, maybe it wasn’t meant to be. But I’m thinking she may also do well without the gap year. We’ve had her abilities “looked at” before by very well known teachers but that was three years ago. We’re looking into doing that again. Still, at 16, she’s got that attitude where she sees only the straight line from point A (college) to point B (major orchestra position.) We’re working on what she really wants/needs and feels is really important. Discussions on reality are on going! It’s got to be tough for our kids that have put other interests to the side, devoted so much time, and are teenagers with all the feelings that come with that stage of life! </p>
<p>@ redeye-
I feel for you, it is a tough time. With our S, we faced kind of the opposite problem, of him looking at his playing compared to the other kids, and feeling ‘he wasn’t good enough’, it didn’t help that he had a teacher who was one of those who thought their job was to totally pick them apart and smash any ego at all they had <em>sigh</em>. One thing I think that would be helpful is if there is some way for her to get in touch with working musicians, I know it helped my son a great deal to understand that the ideal of being a soloist or being in a major orchestra is not the only thing, or maybe even all that practical or desirable. He met people who were working violinists who did a combination of things, he also had lessons with people who were members of the two major orchestras in NYC. </p>
<p>One thought I would have is to maybe try and arrange for your D to meet with a professional or two,maybe someone who is a member of a relatively high level orchestra? I know you are upstate NY, maybe a member of the Buffalo Symphony, if getting to NYC is difficult, or maybe if at all possible, down to NYC and maybe someone in the NY Phil, Met Orchestra, or even independent? Many of them teach, and you might be able to arrange something where it is an assessment, but also tell them you would like for her to be able to ask questions about what it is like to be a working musician, what it takes, what they recommend, it is I think a major thing to be able to do. As good as a teacher may be, they may not be entirely certain of what is out there and speaking to someone working at it might be invaluable, because your D might take their word on things a lot more than her teacher or what you tell her (despite the fact that he grudgingly has admitted I was right about certain things, and was right more often than wrong, my S still rolls his eyes at me when I suggest something:). </p>
<p>Sorry for the absence.</p>
<p>The US oboe student cannot study oboe in Europe, unless he/she wants to get a job in Europe. They will not be hired in a US orchestra with a European sound and reeds.</p>
<p>Yes, Bard has several oboe teachers who also teach at Juilliard/are connected to Juilliard. My daughter’s former teacher is one ot them. He teaches at Bard once a month, perhaps for one day, then flies back home… he told her not to go there.</p>
<p>There is some possibility of getting hired in an orchestra if one does an undergrad at Indiana University, IF then one gets an MM in NYC. As another poster said, graduates of Curtis don’t get MM degrees.</p>
<p>Don’t study oboe at Eastman if your major is oboe performance. While the professor is very nice, he went to Eastman to retire.</p>
<p>Military bands: there are the top bands, and then there are all the other bands. The top bands are very hard to get into–but they will often choose a player from a state university over a conservatory grad. Just look at their rosters. The lower bands are completely different. Many of them play below the level of a college band. That said, there are many great players performing in the lower bands, waiting for their chance to audition into a top band. They are not well-compensated, and come in at a very low military rank.</p>
<p>The oboe is not very versatile. It has a 2.5 octave range and can crack fairly easily. The orchestra is about the only option for the oboe player.</p>
<p>@Woodwinds - I’d recommend that any prospective applicant find out at any school how often they would have classes with their primary teacher. No idea if things have changed at Bard since your daughter was considering it. Is she starting her third year now? (I’m losing track!) Certainly, at Bard, being a younger conservatory, they’re always tweaking things and I’d guess it changes from year to year. (Composition faculty teach exclusively at Bard and have been constant for years, though.)</p>
<p>I know an oboe player who started her own ensemble which is doing pretty well. She and others I know play for a variety of ensembles and well-known but niche orchestras, and free lance for chamber music in general. I don’t know what they did in the past, but I do know they are employed and doing what they love.</p>
<p>Again, I would draw a parallel with ballet, which is very hierarchical and competitive. Some who train rigorously for ballet do not end up in a top ballet company, or even choose not to, but branch out, diversify and find ways to make it work. Some with day job, some not.</p>
<p>Nothing wrong with working in Europe either.</p>
<p>Woodwinds, you are clearly an expert in the area of oboe, so I do defer to your knowledge, but am just trying to lighten thing up a little with personal examples. Music has become much more entrepreneurial and democratic, though, again, like ballet, this has not necessarily penetrated the upper reaches. I just think it is possible to make it work. Maybe I’m wrong.</p>
<p>It may be hard for some to relate to, but, let’s say a dancer who has spent her entire growing up years training (and her parents paying and driving) and goes to conservatory, and then decides to do something else. She would still have a degree and many options. Should the parents regret the time and money? Should the student regret all the work? As a parent of a music major, and a dancer (no surprise) I feel strongly that we can value the experience in the present for these studies. In other words, going back to the original issue, I believe it is a worthwhile investment regardless of whether the outcome is professional success in that particular field.</p>