Another "Should I send ACT score" Post. Not general, I give specific info.

Applying to College
1

I’ve bounced this off of a smaller group, and there was a split opinion so I thought I would throw it out here and see what the rest of you had to say. I won’t give any conclusions yet because I’m interested in opinions and reasoning of others. I’ll try to answer the questions they asked to give enough info. If you have more questions that affect your opinion, let me know.

D is applying ED to Amherst, EA CWRU, Northeastern

Grades: 2 quarters B+ AP Lit, 1 quarter B Calc. All other grades A/A+

Class rank: 1/350ish

School Profile: Lists all of the honors and AP classes, most of which D has taken. Lists average ACT for last 5 years, only 22 probably because it is a state required test and D literally saw some people (not college bound) napping during the test. Talks about how great the school is but not much concrete info to back that up.

She will end up with 10 AP’s by end of senior year. She does not have AP scores to submit, so if no ACT there really will be no standardized testing submitted at all.

Large town in a rural area, in an underrepresented state at all 3 schools.

HS has virutally no history with these schools, in a typical year no one applies to any of them.

February ACT: Comp 31.5, rounds to 32, Math 27, Sci 31, Eng 35, Read 33

July: Comp 30, Math 29, Sci 30, Eng 35, Read 27

27/75 Numbers from CDS:

Amherst Comp 31/34, Math 30/34, Eng 34/36
Northeastern Comp 32/35, Math 30/35, Eng 33/35
CWRU Comp 30/34, Math 29/34, Eng 31/35

At first glance, it seems she is in the 25/75 comp for all schools. However, her math is not, at least at Northeastern or Amherst. That is one of my concerns. Another concern is that even though a 32 is 97th percentile so probably shows she can do the work anywhere, I think when you look at 1/350 class rank with a school that offers a bunch of AP’s, the 32 is weaker than you would expect.

I can give a great case for submitting/not submitting to these schools. I’m curious the wisdom of the crowd, and even more curious about your reasoning.

Thanks in advance.

2

Even though Amherst has holidtic process, I think I would submit to Amherst because your D is coming from underrepresented state and a high school with no previous applicants. I thought the ACT allows superscoring now -automatically sending best scores from all test dates, not all scores from all test dates.

In past for Class of 2023, Amherst superscored if all scores were sent.

So ACT superscore would be Comp 32, Math 29, Sci 31, Eng 35, Read 33?

3

What possible major? That can color the view of the B grades. And, frankly, the ECs, as well.

I don’t think you can decide about sending without some idea if she’s otherwise a good match, in the the colleges’ eyes. The fewer the data points they get to review, the clearer the rest of the picture needs to be. Especially if your hs is not on their radar. Whether or not being val helps (or from WY/ND/SD) also depends on her full picture. It’s not just scores, sending or not.

And the idea is to be at or close to the 75th percentile, not just fall into mid-range.

Ignore that a 32 is 97th percentile. That’s among all test takers, including the nappers. She’s applying to specific colleges, with their expectations.

So, no definitive rec from me. We’d need more info.

4

History major, pre-med although I’m not sure if that is on the app anywhere. I think decent EC’s, but no national awards or anything along those lines.

Correct on ACT superscore, still 32 I feel like 33 just sounds better. I realize 97% doesn’t mean anything, and is certainly not where she would fall in terms of the schools she is targeting. My point was that it probably shows that she isn’t completely out of her league in terms of being able to do the work at those schools. But I don’t know with the grades and class rank if the ACT score actually helps or hurts.

Thanks for the comments.

5

I’d need to see the rest of her profile.

6

I agree with @Hippobirdy in post #1.

Not one of those colleges is going to look at those test scores and her grades and think she won’t be able to do the work.

The main reason in favor of submitting is that her high school is in an underrepresented state and her score is far above the average for the school. It certainly is not going to hurt her, IMO, and with no AP scores to report, it’s a good data point for them.

Given that her high school is an unknown quantity, I think the test scores are a point in her favor. I am assuming no one takes AP tests at her school? Why no scores with ten AP classes? The general opinion here on CC is that colleges don’t use AP scores in making their decisions. However, given the unknown factor of your high school, I wonder if there may be cause for concern that the quality of teaching isn’t great if kids aren’t taking the tests. Or maybe it was due to financial reasons? Am I wrong in thinking high schools include stats about AP tests in their profile?

At any rate, yes, I see no good reason not to submit the test scores. Especially as she isn’t applying as a math major or similar.

7

I would not send it to Amherst.

I’m leaning to sending them for Northeastern and Case. IMO, those schools’ scores trend higher because of the engineering and science students, especially for math sub scores. Your student’s scores are high in reading and english which would arguably be more important for a history major.

FWIW, I would only send the Feb ACT. There isn’t a noticeable difference between a 31.5 and a 32. I would worry that if your students sends both to super score, they will see that 27 in reading and possibly question the 33 from the other sitting.

8

I have to admit that I was surprised at her scores, given her grades, her class rank, and the number of AP classes that she has taken. I will never forget a classmate of mine at an Ivy in the early 80’s, who was a very high achiever at that Ivy. I tried tutoring her for the GRE, since she said she wasn’t good at standardized tests. As we dug into the math, I saw how she methodically tried to compute the problems the way one would do homework. I said, “Mary, that’s not how you do these! You look at all 4 answers, and you knock out the ones you immediately know are wrong, then do the bare minimum to choose the correct one from the remaining two.” She replied, “But that’s cheating!” I asked her how what her SAT had been - about 1000. When I asked her how she’d gotten in, she said that the interviewer had told her that in cases with straight A students from decent high schools, with obviously disparate SAT scores, they just ignored the SAT.

Your daughter is first in her class, with 10 AP classes with A grades, and from an underrepresented area of the country. No AP scores from this spring doesn’t mean much - although they were offered online, and I suspect that some students cheated, and the colleges know that. If she doesn’t submit these ACT scores that frankly detract from her application, the colleges will assume that she couldn’t get a seat for a standardized test. If she does submit these scores, they might assume that she’s the best in a mediocre high school from a podunk town, but that she’s not at the level of their schools, and not take a chance on her.

In my opinion, she should not submit these scores. It’s an unusual application year, many students really could not get a seat for testing, many will be submitting without a standardized test. Without the test, they could look at her as having hit the top at what was available to her, and take a chance on her because of geographical diversity. Frankly, without the test, she looks like a strong applicant to me, because of her geographical location and her being first in her class, with the most rigorous course load available to her.

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dadof4kids said: “HS has virutally no history with these schools, in a typical year no one applies to any of them.”; I learned from CC that GC and teachers need to write the “right” type (besides attributes such as student works hard and is at the top of the class) of LORs to boost a student’s chance of acceptance at these schools. I admit that I do not know what a “right” type of LORs is; however, I dare ask, if your daughter’s GC and teachers have experience in crafting such LORs. I think that the LORs and the essays weigh more than her test scores, especially at Amherst.

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Thanks for the comments.

To answer a question, even though the GC office seems no help to her, and slightly confused by the CA in general, we do usually get 2-3 kids into top schools, the last 3 years I know at least one to Stanford/Yale/Columbia/Duke/MIT. None of them are athletic recruits, only one URM. I seriously doubt any of them used paid consultants. I think honestly that’s about all that applies, I don’t think there are many qualified kids who apply who don’t get in somewhere, although they frequently are not at their top choice.

But no one applies to high level LAC’s. A few apply to the tip top big U’s like the schools above, and the rest that go to college either hit non-selective LAC’s or non-selective State U’s.

So apparently they are writing the “right” type of recommendations for Ivy and equivalent schools, so I would presume that means they are fine for Northeastern and Amherst.

So far the hive mind seems like what is going around in my head. Definitely send, definitely don’t, it depends, lol.

More comments will be very welcomed.

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I am going to assume that her LoR’s from her teachers and counselor are going to be strong. I am also assuming you are not a URM. With that, I would not send the score. Her Math subscore is at or below the 25th percentile. While her major may not be math oriented, Math is a fairly fundamental data point as far as test data is concerned. I also think this year with TO, students submitting scores will be those at the higher end, higher than historical CDS figures. If the rest of her app is in good shape, why would you submit a data point that does not help you? I might submit for CWRU, but not for Amherst.

12

Well, the other POV’s are very valid. I might change my stance now, haha.

As as test prep tutor, I am pretty cynical about high standardized test scores. Honestly, there are very few kids who get a really high score without prep.

My thought with submitting her test score is that it does not seem that she is in a part of the country where every kid is getting test prep. They will probably discern that from her high school, score, and state. Yes, the math score is “low” for Amherst, but what’s betting that most of the test scores that Amherst will get are from parts of the country where kids doing private test prep is par for the course? The school will know that too. My rationale is that her score is pretty strong overall and shows a kid doing well, despite an assumed lack of test prep in an underrepresented state. Remember the average at her school is 22 and she is 10 points above that.

Tough choice OP. I am very sure though that her state is going to get her application a closer look, at least.

In her shoes, I still think I would be inclined to send it. Other parts of the application are going to weigh more, I am sure.

13

I’ve been thinking about all this and I think it’s a coin toss. What’s important is that after she hits Submit, she feel comfortable she made her best decision, no beating herself up later with 2nd guessing.

The math matters less, as a history major. The English is great, deserves visibility.
What’s hard to tell is the strength of the rest of the app/supps. And that’s where you both need to put the energy now. I get the worried feeling you’re focusing on this scores question and missing how vital it is that the rest of her app meet expectations, no assumptions this or that part is “great.” or that one strong section can outweigh any other issues.

Amherst reputedly takes a lot of athletes during ED. Adcoms may know more about your hs, especially if they’ve previously looked at other schools there. (Are you really in an underrepresented state?) They have access to state reports, demographics, etc.

I don’t know how to word this, but being #1 may not be any tip, if they think this is a less challenging hs. That’s not measured by the number of AP offered or taken. There’s a code for when a low number of seniors go off to 4 year colleges. It can help- but when the applicant is right on the mark, as the college expects it, and does show not only stats and a good ECrecord, but the traits they look for.

We don’t know the GC writes great letters. Many are so pro forma that readers have to ignore their blandness. But again, that cycles you right back to how the individual structures the app/supps, the “self presentation.”

The rationale isn’t test prep versus no prep. Unfortunately, with Amherst, it comes down to simple performance and how one presents in the app/supp. What you see is what you get. There’s no break just ffor coming from a less competitive hs or applying to an elite college when peers do not or their stats are lower.

So I’m suggesting you toss that coin, but use the remaining time to make sure the rest of the app is spot on.

14

Wow, tough one!! I’m certainly no expert (D21 is my first rodeo) but I think I agree with the poster that said they would just assume she couldn’t get a testing seat in these covid times, but they might still infer during their holistic review that if she had taken it that based on her favorable school performance that she would have had a higher score. But I can definitely see the other arguments too, and certainly understand your dilemma! Best of luck to your talented D21!

Please update with your decision, I’m following as many of these as I can keep straight as we’re pondering something similar though not quite as selective of schools and our D21 is submitting the score more to help balance a GPA bump-in-the-road but the decision is between a one point lower composite score (32) but with stronger E/M combo and higher section scores in 3 of 4 (35E/32M/34R/27S) or the one point higher composite (33) and stronger STEM score (32) since that is her area of interest but lower section scores in 3 of 4 (33E/31M/33R/33S). It seems silly to me but I am still managing to talk myself in circles about it!

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@hokiemama24, I’d submit both for a superscore of 35E/32M/34R/33S for a 34C (33.5).

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OP: What was your question ?

Sorry, but I couldn’t get past “class rank 1/350”.

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Thanks for the comments. Sept test finally came in today. M30, Sci 34, Read 34, Eng 30. A bit of a disappointment on English because that has always been consistently 34 or 35 on every test or practice test she has taken But the other sections rise 5 points total. 33.25 superscore composite if you use her first English and then use the other scores from the new test… I am always happy to hear advice, but think I will send those 2 scores. No reason to send the middle one, because it adds nothing.

If you think I’m wrong, as always I’m happy to hear opposing viewpoints.

@Lindagaf I think there are a few factors on the AP test situation. First, most of these classes are also offered dual credit. Most of the college bound kids are going to state schools where the dual credit is accepted, so those kids do that instead. That was what S18 did. Second, we are on a block schedule with all classes either first or second semester but not both. So either the class ends in December and you need to remember the information for an early May test, or it is a second semester class, and 3-4 weeks of material hasn’t been covered yet, which due to the block schedule is more like 6 weeks worth of material. Third, since few students take the tests for the first 2 reasons, it becomes a self fufilling prophecy and the teachers don’t teach to the test since they assume their students aren’t taking the test. S19 had a teacher caution her students about taking the test and said that she didn’t cover much of the material they needed. D21 was supposed to take them this spring, but when I asked her if she was prepared for the changed rubric for one of the classes she said that her teacher didn’t tell them that it was changed. They are basically treated as honors+ classes. I think 3-4 A’s given out of 50 kids in AP lit. D hated the class and teacher, but did really learn how to write in that class. She worked much harder for that B+ than she ever had to work for an A.

@lookingforward thanks for the advice. She is not just hoping for a free pass into Amherst based on the valedictorian status or that combined with the test. I was focusing on that here because I can’t ask for help with her essay or have any of you write her a killer rec. I realize that testing is just a piece of the puzzle. But unlike most parts of the application this late into the game, the decision on whether or not to send the test scores is one that the CC family can still help with, hence the question.

@hokiemama24 I would send both. There aren’t any really big drops to hide in the one with the 6 point bounce in Science. Most places say they will look at highest subscores even if they don’t superscore.

@Publisher lol, I hope you are right!

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@dadof4kids : Again, a class rank of 1/350 is probably enough for any reasonable admissions officer.

Her most recent ACT set of scores should solidify her portrait as a hard working, highly capable student.

The only issue might be her math score if she were applying to competitive engineering programs.

Be careful as to where she applies ED as she is very likely to be accepted.

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@dadof4kids I agree, send tests 1 and 3, for the reasons that @lindagaf mentioned above. As the school is relatively unknown territory, that superscore will validate the rest of the record. Is it possible to ask the guidance counselor to explain why the AP tests generally aren’t taken somewhere in the rec? That the block plan does not lend itself to those tests I find persuasive.

And congratulations to her! Clearly she put in the work and effort to get testing dates during these trying times.

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Congrats on the last score. Agree submitting tests 1 and 3 is probably the best option.