<p>
sax~</p>
<p>It's worth a whole, whole lot, and I truly thank you. {{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>
mini~</p>
<p>I don't listen to the colleges' advertising propaganda any more than I listen to the commercials on TV and take everything they say literally.</p>
<p>As far as the colleges are concerned, I don't consider it their job alone to "prepare students for life." In fact, I view a college education as an interactive process, a sort of "dance" between school and student. </p>
<p>At the ages that kids head off to college, they are already quite "formed" in their attitudes/interests/socialization. The school can no more "impart preparation" on these kids than can parents. The student has an obligation to bring to the college setting some skills and abilities, both intellectual and social, in order to survive.</p>
<p>Young adulthood can be a challening stage. Even if the college stepped up, banned all alcohol-related activities, instituted drug and alcohol testing, and expelled violators, what happens when the kids graduate and leave college? Who is to monitor their behavior then? Their bosses? There comes a point at which the young man or woman will need to take responsibility for his/her own behavior, and IMHO, the sooner this is learned, the better.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>
[quote]
xiggi is FAR from the only one on this thread who has expressed the sentiment that parents are not fully aware of what their children do. In fact, I and many others have stated this as well.</p>
<p>That said, I simply cannot embrace xiggi's contention that the odds are equal with all kids. Clearly they are not, as cptfothehouse has so eloquently pointed out several times throughout this thread. She's absolutely right, even if many do not want to admit it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>While I'll continue to ignore the personal notes, I have to respond to the comment about the nature of my "contention" since it clearly misrepresents what I have written in this thread, as well as many others on College Confidential. At no time did I write that the odds are equal for all kids. I believe that it takes a titan's work to extrapolate THAT contention from my posts, especially my post number 72: </p>
<p>
[quote]
Berurah, there is a world of difference between having NO idea --which is not what I said-- and having a completely accurate idea of the reality. Please don't tell that you are no longer shocked to see some of the videos of druken debauchery or jackass-like behavior. </p>
<p>If you believe for a second that this is about pointing fingers, you'd be wrong. This is about never stopping making people aware that the dangers loom everywhere, and that no amount of positive education will shelter youngsters from the tentations, peer pressures, and simple temporary bad judgment that are prevalent in college.</p>
<p>Have a happy Thanksgiving!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>As far as this case, I still maintain the time to reevaluate the authorized and condoned presence of EVERY organization that have CAUSED the deaths of students has come. The negative examples keep on coming. Only one year ago, a student died from alcohol posioning at UT-Texas. The same organization (SAE) has had multiple cases of hazing gone wrong. Do we really have to sit there and applaud as a victory the fact that a dozen girls were rushed to the hospital for alcohol poisoning instead of letting them sleep it off? It could be a victory for information dissemination, but still a major indictment of the inefficacy of the measures implemented at the school where Sam Spady died two years ago. One might wonder if CSU DOES care!</p>
<p>Colleges are NOT creating the problems, but their indecisive actions and Pontius Pilate attitudes are falling extremely short. Policies that are pushing the egregious activities out of campus --but a few feet from the demarcation lines-- are reprehensible testaments to their abdication of responsibilities. We have laws that preclude a number of establishments to locate next to schools or churches. The biggest tragedy is that the perpetrators are often barely older than their victims. Twenty year olds allowed to find themselves in a position of causing the deaths of an 18 years old does not seem compatible with college life in 2006. </p>
<p>Yet, our society allows it because it only happens to .. others. Well, sometimes it hits closer to home, and THAT usually end up making all the difference and forcing people to consider picking the road less traveled by.</p>
<p>Then tell me, xiggi, why my assertion that my oldest son is at less risk than some others prompted this:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Pad [sic] yourself all you want on the back, if that makes you feel better.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Why does my realistic risk assessment of my son's chances of succumbing to an alcohol-related tragedy offend you? In many other statements that I won't bother to quote again, I have stated that my children, like all children, are not immune from these types of things. No one is. My statement was never intended as a pat on the back for myself--just an opinion offered on the basis of my intimate knowledge of my own child. That was your interpretation of it.</p>
<p>I just do not understand your reaction if you agree that some kids' risk is less than others.</p>
<p>Xiggi, the whole fraternity thing has be baffled. My son who was a college athlete did not join his sport's fraternity, but he did socialize there often. We did not let him join. But most if not all of the other parents of those athletes, not only let their kids join, but abetted the decision, were proud that their kids were in the frat, paid for the frat fees even in light of the fact that the frat has been in all kinds of trouble in the past several years. The police are regular visitors to the frat house, and the university has sanctioned them many times. The % of kids suspended, expelled and in any other disciplinary type probation or sanction is far higher than that of the average for the university. Yet the frat is not hurting for membership; each year it turns down more kids than it accepts. Not only do the alums of the frat support the university, so do the current parents even knowing the risks involved. As the frat house is not on campus and the activities generally take place at the house, the university cannot close them down, though they can and do warn about the activities going on. My other son's university is much stricter about frats that have a demonstrated record of abusive behaviour and they flat out condemn the frats and have severed all ties with them. Yet the line to join is still there, and for most of the kids, it is the parents who are paying for the dues, and condoning if not encouraging them to join. It makes it difficult for those parents who are bucking this trend.<br>
If an catastrophe should occur at any of the above mentioned frats, who is to blame? The universities? The kids? The parents? The Duke lax scandal could just as easily have occurred at my sons' colleges at a number of their frats, or group homes.<br>
There is plenty of blame to spread around when these things happen. Certainly there are some organizations, kids, families who up their odds. And it does not have to be a frat or other club where these things occurr. There are houses where a bunch of kids live together and the behaviour is no less animalistic and risky than a frat. The question for parents is where do you draw the line, when is the battle worth it when it come to upping risks. You do not even have to be indulging in the activity to get caught into a tragedy; just being their increases the risks.<br>
As we end this holiday for thanks and enter a month of hoidays, my thoughts are with all parents who struggle with these questions about raising their kids, and for those who will always blame themselves regardless of the circumstances for a tragedy that may have befallen their child. For you do know that when the lights are out and all is quiet, all of us parents who so love our children do ask what we did wrong, what we are doing wrong and what we can do right to help our children adjust to responsible adulthood.</p>
<p>Captofthehouse, thank you for your post and your viewpoint on this issue.</p>
<p>
cpt~</p>
<p>This made me cry. It is a sentiment that only a "been there" parent can truly understand and express, a sort of candid glimpse into the deepest soul of all of us parents who have laid awake nights worrying about our precious children. Thank you. love, ~berurah</p>
<p>I thought I would come back to this thread after driving by the home of the young man to whom this thread is dedicated. Cars parked outside the house. A sad, sad time for this family whose Thanksgiving will forever be a time of sadness and pain. It caused me to pause and think about why the tempers flared in this thread. I believe that when tragedy befalls a student, regardless of the cause, we parents become protective... of kids, of our kids, of our opinions, etc. Some of us, like Berurah, are clearly passionate in their feelings, and this shines through in their posts. Passion is a good thing. Students tend to challenge and question opinions, as they are encouraged to do. This is a good thing too. However, I would hope that we can stick to challenging statements that are made, and not the people making them.</p>
<p>Before I had kids, I used to think it was incredibly trite when someone said "you can't understand until you have one of your own". However, once I had kids, I realized they were right. Whether your kid is injured doing something incredibly stupid, or whether they are the victim of an illness or senseless accident, it is no less painful for the parent standing there helplessly while their child lays in a hospital bed. I suppose the emotions of one's personal past experiences can seep through when we discuss events that cause pain to others. Students, please don't fault or chide us for this. After all, perhaps you can't truly understand until you have one of your own....</p>
<p>Perhaps we parents and students can turn this thread into a positive one...please help with innovative and positive ways to tackle this alcohol issue in high schools and college campuses. List some ideas. No idea is too crazy or too far out there. No impassioned criticisms of ideas, just constructive comments. I'll start:</p>
<p>In my daughter's sophomore year of high school, her school sponsored a night of small group sessions with students and parents. The rules were 1) a student could not be in the same group as their own parent and 2) no names could be attached to specific comments if the discussion was shared with others after the session was over. It was eye-opening for me and for many of the parents to hear these 15, 16, and 17 year olds talk about their drinking and their confidence that they absolutely knew if one of their friends was in trouble from drinking or if they weren't (yeah, sure). It was a great discussion and lead to a large group of parents signing a pledge not to allow drinking in their homes at student parties and to closely chaperone the parties. Not all parents agreed, but we knew who did and who didn't, so could choose whether or not to allow our kids to attend parties at which houses.</p>
<p>I'd like to see colleges commit to more of these kinds of discussion groups for students...and not just give lip service to it during freshman orientation. My D told us that the issue was brought up at orientation, but only in the context "If you decide to drink, we want you to know the phone number for security and how to get help." No discussion at all that the legal drinking age is 21 and that this would be enforced on the entire campus. It isn't.</p>
<p>Look at the post regarding how Elon College deals with drunk students to get an idea how colleges are dealing with student drinking. At Elon if a student is taken to the hospital for alcohol poisoning (apparently whether or not they are actually suffering from alcohol poisoning) that student is suspended at least for the balance of the term. This kind of thinking is brought to you by the same kinds of educrats that suspend grade school students for bringing aspirin to school. They don't want to deal in shades of gray, but rather to be able to point to a rule and say you broke it. Apparently the educators at Elon have not forseen the probable consequences of instituting such a rule.</p>
<p>I believe that what Elon has done is what other colleges are doing or are going to do in the near future. At the University of Colorado (former top 5 party school) if you are caught drinking you have to attend an alcohol class. If you are caught a second time you are suspended for the term. You forfeit your tuition and your grades and just lost a semester in getting through college. For a second offense! I think a lot of the parents on this board are perfectly okay with that result - at least until it's their child and their money. I do not support that result for a first, second or tenth alcohol offense.</p>
<p>Personally I don't want colleges "educating" my son or daughter about any social evils. That is not why I am sending them there. If they are required to attend an alcohol/other social evils class as a result of some behavior problem or as punishment, I don't have an issue with that. I also don't want them to become a secondary police force to the local police for alcohol enforcement.</p>
<p>If you want an Elon-type environment for you child, I suggest that you look for the strictest college you can find. Ask what their policy on alcohol use by students is (and ask students if it is actually enforced) and then ask yourself if you can live with the potential results if your student succumbs to demon rum.</p>
<p>Hat~</p>
<p>Like you, I take issue with bureaucracies which do not want to deal in shades of gray. Zero tolerance-type rules create more problems than they solve, IMHO.</p>
<p>And like you, I am not comfortable with colleges in the role of "values instructors." That said, if the trend is for colleges to be held legally liable for what happens within (and apparently around) them, then they <em>must</em> be given some control, for their own protection. It is not fair to foist the <em>responsibility</em> for something onto an entity which can exert no control over that thing. </p>
<p>"Defensive education" will be the order of the day, sort of like defensive medicine increased when med mal lawsuits became commonplace.</p>
<p>quiltguru: D's h.s. has the "safe home" designation listed in the student directory. I think this deals with one of the most troubling areas of teen drinking: willing parents who allow kids to drink in their homes. More of that "they're going to do it anyway" attitude. Just shrug and resign yourself to the fact that parents are useless.</p>
<p>One thing that will help (and does, in my experience) is the willingness of parents to open their home to their kids' friends for hanging out together. I'm not willing to have gangs over night & day, but d can bring friends over and they have a place to socialize occasionally. It's also a great way to get to know the new friends who keep popping into her life. This way, they are under adult supervision (We're not in their hair, but we do check in) & not always roaming in bigger groups -- that's often where the trouble begins. If the kids share enough fun time together w/o alcohol, they will not view alcohol as a necessary component of fun. Every time I pick up d & her friends at at the local Starbucks, or from a movie or restaurant, I see a hundred kids in the parking lot. If there were no structure to her weekends & we just let her stroll out the door to go "out," she'd no doubt be hanging in parking lots, too.</p>
<p>I am surprised at how many families NEVER have their kid's friends over. They are doing their own socializing every weekend & leave their kids on their own. That's asking for trouble, I think. It's very sad to see a sweet little girl who was in my brownie troop head in a dangerous direction because her parents are not involved.</p>
<p>StickerShock- The flip side of that is that many parents would love to have their kids friends over, but their kid doesn't want that! Their kid would rather go to a house where the parents aren't home and they can party at will. Don't blame the parents who may have offered over and over again to be the "party house".</p>
<p>MOWC, I still can't imagine just being O.K. with that as a parent. Wouldn't you investigate a bit, maybe ask, "What do you mean, honey, when you say our house isn't fun?" That sure would be a HUGE red flag to me....Hmmmm....Susie's house is more "fun" than ours. I'm sure they just have a bigger tv & a pool table. It couldn't possibly be an unsupervised free-for-all where alcohol flows. Nah, I'm sure it's fine. Hey, we can go out for dinner & a movie without being bothered by kids! </p>
<p>Wouldn't everyone with any sense call the parents of the "fun" house & find out their rules & whether or not they stay home when kids are over?</p>
<p>
I totally agree with this. We're pretty much Grand Central around here. S's gf (and her sister) are here all the time, and D's bf is basically a family member (he's better at family chores than any of mine are! :) ). We were sitting around on T-giving night when one of oldest S's friends called and said, "Hi Mom, I'm hungry!" :D He was over shortly with more kids in tow. Our house is always open, and many of my S's friends come by and visit/eat/play basketball with the other kids even when S is away at college. If my kids wanted to hang out regularly at the home of someone whose parents I didn't know, I'd make every effort to determine what goes on there. ~berurah</p>
<p>Stickershock, there are parents who just turn a blind eye to what is happening in the rec room or in their kids' room. I had a real eye opening experience several years ago when I let my son go to a party. I called the parents, confirmed that this was happening and that the party was supervised by the parents. They told me that it was just a few friends from the school, and would not be a problem, and that they would be there. Well, my husband and I ended up near the home picking up something (unplanned), and I decided to drop by the party to say "hi" to the parents whom I knew from school and liked. When we approached the home, it was a wild, out of control bash. Neither parent was home. They had gone to pick up someone at the airport, both of the parents, which is a minimum hour and half trip. I made my very sullen son come home with us, though it was early, and that was the end of parties or get togethers there, and that is a popular kids' home. When I called the mother later, she just flat denied that there were any problems there that night--all good kids there. Maybe some neighborhood locals came by while they were gone for less than an hour, but when they were back, all was well, and any kids who wanted to stay the night were welcome. These people have another child who is my next son's age, and it does cut into the social life to blacklist that home which we have done. I often wish I had called the police on that scene. I've found out since that they just ignore the Mardi Gras somehow and "trust" their kids and their friends. The "party" line for anyone who asks is what I got. They are not alone. I will say that the majority of those kids end up just fine, and do ending up vindicating their parents' trust. The fallout occurs on those kids who are involved who cannot handle the situations. If I were in my activist days, and not so worn out, I might take on this Hydra, but that just isn't the case anymore for me. It's all I can do, to keep my kids away from those parties. It does cut into their social lives, but I have hung tough on that.<br>
So when something does happen; when a kid gets intoxicated, and sneaks out with his car keys, gets into an accident, you do feel that the set up was there. That is not to say that any random kid, visiting anyone, does not leave the house in poor condition to drive, even though the parents are practicing due vigilance. There is an element of risk always there, but there are those who bring the chances up higher.<br>
I have an open house for young people, but no tolerance for drugs and alcohol here, even for my oldest who is 23. The house is just not R+ rated, and he is just going to have earn enough to find his own place if he wants to drink and watch certain shows or indulge in certain activities. My home, so my comfort level rules. Not to mention that I still have young children and their friends (who do visit often). My older kids had lot of friends over alot when they were younger, but no more. As Mom of Wild Child brings up, there are plenty of homes where the parents either are rarely home, or there is a basement rec room or area where they simply do not venture. THough I do not personally know of any who actually buy alcohol or contraband, or join in or even openly acknowledge what is going on in their house, I do know of plenty who just turn the blind eye and stay out of where the young people are gathered to give them their privacy. Some think it is funny that they find a suspicious something later, or a bra or something else and embarrass their kid with it. Turns into an anecdote later. The time Tom Jinno ran into the just planted bushes, and Mom threw a fit and everyone had to replant in the pouring rain. True story, I've heard several times at gatherings.
Not to say that there are not plenty of other kids and places that are not that way, but it seems the "hot" social scene and the "it " places to be do allow contraband and little supervision. Because I am known as a spoilsport about these things, my highschooler is not invited to many of these get togethers. Though I do not want him there, it does hurt to see him excluded, and there is the crux of the parental dilemma about all of this.
I am rambling, folks, because I struggle with all of this and have no solid answers. My solutions have had their problems too. But when I read, hear about another young life shattered or gone, it does hurt from the back of my throat to my stomache. And my heart does go out to the parents. The loss of a child is considered one of the toughest blows to get. The tragedy and sorrow of the event does overshadow all of the circumstances, so painful, it is.</p>
<p>Update on Tyler Cross:
The exact cause of his death thus far remains unclear. He had just been elected as one of the future (freshman) leaders of his fraternity, and had been putting up decorations with friends for an upcoming event. He apparently left his frat at about 1 am and was back in his dorm room with his roommates. The cellphone reception is apparently poor in the dorm room, and they would sometimes go out onto the patio for better reception. There were items on the patio, such as coolers (don't know what was in the coolers...) that may have contributed to his fall. While certainly the strong possibility remains that alcohol played a part in his death, it is also possible that it did not. He was a :good kid".. apparently far less of a party animal than his older brother. While one would wonder why one would go on the deck to make a phonecall in the wee early hours of the morning, and whether he might have tried to stand on, or just tripped over the coolers. I am not naive, but I'd also not like to rush to judgement here. I have not heard if his cellphone was with him, or if a call had been placed. This is just what was in the local paper and thought it might be worth passing on....</p>
<p>That said, I still hope that colleges develop healthy, successful alcohol awareness and intervention programs. I am not entirely convinced that the "zero tolerance" policies being implemented by Elon, UGA and others are the way to go, as this will just force the students into being more secretive and sneaky about their alcohol use. Our goal is not to force kids to go underground with their drinking, but to be able to learn to make reasoned decisions, but also to turn for help if/when itis necessary. What we don't need is for a kid to die of alcohol poisoning because their friends were afraid to ask for medical assistance for fear the kid would be kicked out. Lets not let the pendulum swing too far in the opposite direction, to clamp down too hard with rules and consequences , in the "name" of safety. Lets do it right.</p>
<p>And still another one: :(
<a href="http://www.legacy.com/statesman/Obituaries.asp?Page=Lifestory&PersonId=20025099%5B/url%5D">http://www.legacy.com/statesman/Obituaries.asp?Page=Lifestory&PersonId=20025099</a>
The information in the Ole Miss student newspaper was brief - as was this link. Looked like another beautiful, sweet, young kid... no mention of cause of death... so very sad, especially at this time of year.</p>
<p>From the Mississipian
In a story all too familiar for students at The University of Mississippi, a freshman student has died.</p>
<p>Sam Pierro, a freshman from Austin, Texas, died at his home earlier this week.</p>
<p>Sparky Reardon, Dean of Students at Ole Miss, sent the news to faculty and staff members through the university email.</p>
<p>In the email, Reardon said further updates will be made as information is made available.</p>
<p>"I am sorry to share this sad news with you. Please keep Sam and his loved ones in your thoughts and prayers," Reardon said in the email.</p>
<p>Please continue to visit The DM Online. As more information becomes available we will share it with you. Pick up Monday's copy of The Daily Mississippian and watch Monday's broadcast of NewsWatch for more information.
Page 1 of 1</p>
<p><em>sigh</em> This one hits close to home for me as I grew up in Austin and know Westlake High well. Thoughts and prayers to his family and friends on this very tragic loss. It sounds like he was a truly remarkable kid. ~berurah</p>
<p>Sadly - a student at Ole Miss was involved in the death of a University police officer a few weeks ago - alcohol related?!? Frat Related?!? The sad news doesn't stop - neither does the loss of life.</p>
<p>I agree that Elon's 'ER for alcohol = suspension from school' tactics are scary and will drive the students away from the help that could make a difference. THere is a middle line somewhere - but that is not the answer.</p>
<p>This defines what many schools address as their definition relating to alcohol/drug consumption..................."Policy on Alcohol is that students are adults who are personally responsible for conforming their behavior to state and local laws and ............. University policy. " I think a 3 strike system w/mandatory counseling/education and parental notification would certainly help in some ways - proof that a student had been driving under the influence of drugs/alcohol on University property would be grounds for immediate suspension/disconnect from the school. Just ideas...........</p>