<p>My daughter is currently considering this for next year. Two schools are of interest – University College London and American University in Cairo. She is concentrating in Egyptology and Anthropology (archaeology emphasis). We took a trip to Egypt earlier this year, so she shouldn’t pick the latter school just to be able to see the country.</p>
<p>I guess it is unlikely that I will find someone here who has had a child attend either school, but I thought it was worth a try!</p>
<p>Just generally, I would be interested in experiences in any study abroad program --</p>
<li>How competitive are applications? Should someone apply to more than one school in case?<br></li>
<li>One semester or two? Or one semester at two different places? UCL may have year-long classes; at least I can’t find anything on the web site indicating that courses are offered in particular terms. But UCL only came under consideration yesterday, so our research hasn’t been very extensive.</li>
<li>Do the foreign institutions do a good job of orienting their visiting students to the school and the surrounding area?</li>
<li>Can the students get a definite commitment that certain courses will be offered while they are there and that they will be allowed to take them – prior to agreeing to attend? Particularly at AUC, some courses aren’t offered every year or get cancelled and all seem to provide for limited enrollment. I would hate to have my daughter commit to go someplace in order to get coursework that she ends up not being allowed to take.</li>
<li>In cases of limited enrollment classes, do the visiting students have lower priority?</li>
<li>How do the foreign institutions determine a visiting student is qualified for a course with prerequisites? Are students limited to courses that have none, can they self-certify their preparedness, or do they need to show comparable coursework at home? If the latter, how comparable?<br></li>
<li>Did your students enjoy the experience? What were the pluses and minuses?</li>
<li>Any other questions we should be asking? I’m sure there are some.</li>
</ol>
<p>My daughter will be talking to representatives of the Egyptian and English programs in a week or so and so will have a chance to ask questions. Whether they will be definitively answered is another question!</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
2. One semester or two? Or one semester at two different places? UCL may have year-long classes; at least I can't find anything on the web site indicating that courses are offered in particular terms. But UCL only came under consideration yesterday, so our research hasn't been very extensive.
[/QUOTE]
I don't go to UCL but generally UK schools don't operate the same way US schools do with courses broken down into numbers of credits which can be taken at any time. Enrolled students start in year 1 of subject X with course 1, and complete each stage of subject X in order over 3 years. In other words, each course only happens once a year. There is usually only one intake of students per year, in the autumn. I am presuming your daughter is applying for study abroad programmes through a US school, rather than trying to enrol in a foreign school independently? If that is the case probably her home institution will test her on any courses studied or will have arranged with the host institution how to translate her grades into the GPA system. (incidentally this is something which drives students here at Oxford mad. Having study abroad students in our tutorials who don't do any work because they don't have to sit the exams so they mess around. Obviously not all of them, but a significant number).</p>
<p>Thanks, cupcake. Yes, I saw how UCL had the courses set forth for the three year sequence. It seemed like we were talking about yearlong courses -- or do I have that wrong? Is it one course at a time in a particular order, instead? </p>
<p>It is the study abroad program through her home school that D is interested in.</p>
<p>Now with such a system, am I correct in assuming that most courses have unlimited enrollment? That is, if a foreign student is qualified for a course, they wouldn't be closed out from taking it because only a limited number are allowed to take it? AUC's courses have 30 slots or even less, according to the course catalog. Looking at the UCL courses, I only see one of interest that says it limits the number of students allowed in. (Naturally, this is the class of most interest to D :( )</p>
<p>UCL says that "affiliate students" can take any courses; I guess D needs to pin that down with them and see if the Egypt and archaeology courses she will have completed at her current school qualify her to take the year 2 and/or year 3 courses at UCL that interest her. I don't think she would want to take essentially duplicative courses.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
Now with such a system, am I correct in assuming that most courses have unlimited enrollment? That is, if a foreign student is qualified for a course, they wouldn't be closed out from taking it because only a limited number are allowed to take it?
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>Probably. Usually there is a big lecture class (in sciences there can be 300+ students but arts are usually smaller) and then later students have tutorials with a lecturer/professor in small groups of around 10 (1-2 at Oxbridge). The thing is, UK students can't change very much about their degree, so the university already knows how many students they will have taking each lecture course from the day they are enrolled (excluding drop-outs). Probably one more won't make much difference. So unless your D is part of a massive study abroad group that will swamp the lecture hall, I think she can do anything. Usually numbers are only limited if it's a laboratory-based science class or has a lot of field work (or medicine, limited by the government). </p>
<p>Probably your D can take yr 2 or 3 classes because these aren't subjects taught at A-level so the first year classes will be basic, starting from little background knowledge.</p>
<p>Thanks, again. Yes, the class where a limit is mentioned is the one where students get to work with actual Egyptian artifacts from the Petrie Museum. Or since this is in the UK, perhaps I should say "artefacts." If she goes there, I hope they are understanding about spelling differences!</p>
<p>DianeR, your daughter might want to take a look at the University of Liverpool. It's not quite as well known as UCL but arguably as good in Egyptology. Oxford, Cambridge, Wales-Swansea, Durham, Bristol, and Birmingham also have good programs. Brown may not offer study abroad at all of these, but it's common to have a program approved for study abroad (at Duke, at least).</p>
<p>She was looking at the places where Brown has programs approved. I know Oxford and Cambridge do, but her college GPA isn't quite high enough to apply to them. (Has to be 3.75 or above) The list she was consulting only mentioned UCL, Oxford, Cambridge, and the London School of Economics as I understood her, but I'll doublecheck. She might also be able to get somewhere else approved, maybe? She will probably flip, though. She thought she had it all figured out with AU Cairo and now she doesn't know. I just got off the phone with her before I read your post; she is planning on emailing UCL and AUC with a list of questions. Yeah, she's compulsive. (Runs in the family ...)</p>
<p>I'll mention the others to D. I know we looked at Liverpool and Swansea when considering undergrad applications.</p>
<p>Cupcake, well now I've found the web site. I thought that people on CC needed a life LOL A person could spend all of their free time at the site you mention if they weren't careful.</p>
<p>Just doing some more research. Oxford only requires a GPA of 3.5 for applicants, so that is doable. At least potentially LOL Cambridge is the one requiring 3.75. I didn't want to leave inaccurate information on this thread.</p>
<p>Cupcake, could you explain the college system at Oxford? The Brown list of approved programs includes just four of the colleges and also "Visiting Pool" -- whatever the heck that is. Three of the four listed colleges say they don't do oriental studies, while the other doesn't exclude it -- but doesn't list an advisor for it unlike other subjects. Aren't the classes offered on a university-wide basis and the colleges are where you live? Why would only a few of the colleges be allowed by Brown, and why couldn't you study whatever you want no matter where you live? I guess I don't understand what a college is, despite the explanation I've read. I seem to be getting increasingly confused. (Maybe I've devoted enough time to this for one day and my brain can't take anymore and is telling me to do something else :) )</p>
<p>I see that the way Oxford describes things is different than UCL. I also managed to find a Brown handbook for studying abroad in the UK and everything about courses is explained. Short answer -- it depends. </p>
<p>Bristol IS on the list, and the others aren't. Liverpool's course offerings are quite good; I need to see if nonapproved programs are a nonstarter.</p>
<p>Better yet I will send my daughter the explanations and ideas from you two plus the links I found and let her figure it all out!</p>
<p>But first, it's time for something completely different ...</p>
<p>I can help some (being an Oxford grad.) One is admitted to both the university and to individual colleges. The lectures are university wide, and he final exams (after the first year, and after the third year) are university-wide. But the responsibility for educating students falls to the colleges. Each student has a "tutor" for whom papers are usually written (either one-to-one or in a small group), every week. Tutors may also suggest lectures, may run interference for research opportunities, and are (or at least can be) the door to the Oxford world. </p>
<p>Not all colleges have tutors in all subjects, and some have better reputations in some subjects as opposed to others. Attending a college with a subject for which there is no tutor is almost always a non-starter (or at least that used to be the case.)</p>
<p>BUT - and perhaps I'm wrong here - but as I remember, tutors in Egyptology are generally arranged through the Oriental Institute, not the colleges. There are occasional fellows of archaelogy at the colleges themselves, but because of the specialized nature of the subject, I think it is more usual that the subject is taught through "the pool" at the Institute. That's something you probably need to check out.</p>
<p>Or my daughter needs to check out LOL Thanks, mini. D has emailed UCL and AUC with some questions; she can get an email off to Oxford as well.</p>
<p>It looks like you are right. The Egyptology is not college-based. I'm not sure about archaeology generally. I have found a huge handbook from the Oriental Institute and I'm tempted to just forward it to D and she can figure out what she wants. I don't have the stamina to look at a different department right now.</p>
<p>It would be great if she could just ask questions at her school (like what is Oxford, Visiting Pool -- as opposed to the four colleges listed as having Brown programs) but right now they are full up talking to kids who want foreign study this spring. Oh well ... I guess she first has to run through the bureaucratic maze to get her archaeological field school from last summer approved, then she can worry more about next year. She's in the "follow what one office says, then be told by another that this is wrong" stage right now. I guess dealing with all this is an important education in itself. It took one semester to get a college-level summer@brown course she took during high school reflected as a college course on her transcript. (One course she took was properly shown and one wasn't -- a simple problem to correct, huh? Not. It was amazing ...)</p>
<p>My son is also considering the AU program in Egypt. If your daughter has an interest in Egypt, she should go to Egypt. For one thing, she could spend an entire semester in the Egyptian museum, see half of the collection and have enough impressions to last her a lifetime. It isn't like the Met. It is like a gigantic warehouse of the most amazing artifacts she could imagine. She will be in heaven.</p>
<p>Also, as an architect, I can assure her that visiting Hatshepsut or Abu Simbal or the other temples is a must. It simply is NOT possible to understand the scale through photos. It is the scale which truly explains the cultural drive of the civilization, says me.</p>
<p>Finally, my son has spent two summers in China learning mandarin. He has an interest in learning Arabic too. It is much easier to learn difficult languages in an immersive environment.</p>
<p>I don't know what the "visiting pool" is but i can take an educated guess. Many colleges have specific arrangements with other schools to take a certain number of their students for study abroad programmes. But other colleges will take any. So I'd guess it means if you D does not choose to go to one of the 4 colleges which have partnerships with brown, or these colleges are full, she will be put in a "pool" of applicants to be shared around the other colleges. This is exactly what they do with undergraduate applications which are very skewed towards the college which featured in the latest movie and stuff (this really seems to be the way most people choose!). Many students are "pooled" to other colleges which they didn't apply to initially (including me!) and that is where I have the word "pool" before. </p>
<p>ITA with Mini. Probably there are not many tutors in Egyptology so if there isn't a tutor in your college tutorials will be arranged by the department and probably held in another college. It's not a big deal. As a graduate student I occassionally have to fill in for my supervisor and take his tutorials when he is sick/at a conference and often students are from all different colleges. After first year more and more tutorials are outside the college and if there is a tutor a student would really like to speak to they can just ask.</p>
<p>DianeR: as a student at Oxford studying Oriental Studies, I can shed some light on the tutor/college situation!</p>
<p>For a subject like Egyptology, which has a limited intake and only a few tutors, the choice of college won't matter all that much - as long as they accept Oriental Studies students. All the teaching will be organised through the Oriental Institute - including lectures, which will probably have under 30 students due to the low course intake, and tutorials, which will probably have 1/2 students. </p>
<p>This is why Oriental Studies is different to other subjects and people get confused - for most Arts subjects tutorials take place within colleges with your own tutor. For Oriental Studies, tutes take place at the Institute with various tutors. </p>
<p>So don't worry about a college not having a specific tutor - for Oriental Studies, it won't matter at all. :)</p>
<p>"After first year more and more tutorials are outside the college and if there is a tutor a student would really like to speak to they can just ask."</p>
<p>That has been the case for a long time. But, just for my information (and it wouldn't affect study abroad particularly), how could one be accepted to a college in a subject for which there is no tutor? Who would do the interview and evaluate the applicant, and the writing assignment?</p>
<p>Thanks folks. I will forward the additional comments to my daughter.</p>
<p>Laylah, what do YOU feel is the importance of learning Arabic for the field? D is taking her second year of Middle Egyptian now and her first year of Akkadian. If more Akkadian is worthwhile (more than Arabic), that would be an argument for trying for Oxford, since her current school only has one year of that language. (And the first semester course is terribly easy and is filled with folks from football and crew ... she is most frustrated to find out that this is a jock course, with the meat of the language apparently to begin next semester.) </p>
<p>cheers, we spent two and a half weeks in Egypt earlier this year, so she has seen the Egyptian museum, the temples, and all the rest. We planned specifically what we wanted to see and spent the money to have a private guide. Of course, she wouldn't mind seeing things again, but I don't know if that is worth picking that program. She is trying to get course descriptions from AUC to see if they actually manage to take more advantage of the museum (which is one block from the school) than tourists can. The Arabic program IS the major plus she can see right now. The Egyptology course offerings are more extensive elsewhere.</p>
<p>But, doing something in the summer, like the intensive language classes at Middlebury, is a possibility for Arabic, too.</p>
<p>An added complication is her fencing. Her coach wants her to at most do fall semester somewhere and then come back for the bulk of the competitions in the spring. If she wants to do this, she pretty much has to do AUC, because the English fall terms aren't long enough for Brown to give credit apparently. If she goes away for a full year, I think she would want a place that has somewhere she can at least do recreational fencing so she doesn't get too rusty. Of course, it may come down to how her fencing goes this year.</p>
<p>A tough decision (every school she looks at she likes and sees the advantages of) -- so it is nice to have everyone's input.</p>
<p>mini: in the case of Oriental Studies, applicants first have departmental interviews with tutors of that field (regardless of college), and then have collegial interviews with a tutor in a related field. For example, if one was applying for Hebrew but there was no dedicated tutor, a tutor in a different modern language would most likely be used, as the subjects are sufficiently similar for a judgement to be made. In such cases, the departmental interview is more heavily weighted than the collegial interview. </p>
<p>This is how overseas interviews work, as well. Obviously the university can't fly tutors out to Hong Kong, New York etc. for every subject, so a range of tutors across all fields are sent. </p>
<p>DianeR: I'm not sure I'm the best person to answer your question, as I'm studying a different field within Oriental Studies. But I think that if your D is enjoying Akkadian then she should continue with that - not many universities offer it, so it would be a good chance to extend her knowledge. But otoh, if she is looking to diversify into modern history (for example), Arabic may be a better choice. It would certainly be more practical, if she was intending to work in the Middle East. </p>
<p>But I think it really depends on her interests at the moment. If there are opportunities to study Arabic elsewhere, I personally would go for Akkadian.</p>
<p>No, she isn't interested in diversifying into modern history. Indeed, she begins to lose interest around the Late Period in Egypt -- too much of a non-Egyptian influence. The Arabic is because her dream job would be digging in Egypt. Also, I believe it is now required that all new discoveries be written up in Arabic first.</p>
<p>I think she would be tempted by the Akkadian, though. She loves her dead languages. Heck, she is disappointed that Mayan isn't being offered this year at Brown and it has no relevance to her field at all. She just thought it would be cool to know. </p>
<p>Those of you in England: There is something in the Brown manual saying that US students should realize that it is much harder to get an A in England than at a US school. It says that only a very small percentage get a top grade. Is this true? Might this be a consideration for someone looking at applying to graduate school -- or would the experience and coursework obtained by going to England make up for a somewhat lower GPA?</p>
<p>DianeR: I totally sympathise with a love of dead languages! Classical Chinese makes up a third of my degree and I study Latin 'just for fun'. So yeah, I know where she's coming from!</p>
<p>About your question regarding grades - at Oxford, we very rarely actually get 'letter grades', we mostly get percentages. In terms of degree classification, they work like this:
70% and above = 'First class', i.e. the highest level of achievement.
60-69% = 'Upper second class', or 2.1
50-59% = 'Lower second class', or 2.2</p>
<p>Most people score within these three ranges, although there are lower classifications as well. The pass mark for an exam is (usually) 40%. </p>
<p>Although these percentages seem very low, very very few students ever get 70% or over. Tutors do not actually mark out of 100%, although they claim to. I would say that most tutors (particularly in Arts subjects) would never award a percentage higher than 80%, and that only for truly exceptional work. </p>
<p>However, we don't have an equivalent to GPA - our final marks are determined solely by our final exams. And unless I am mistaken, I am almost positive that JYA students at Oxford don't actually take the final exams (although you should check this). Instead, the colleges provide a report of all work completed and an evaluation, which I guess your D's university would take account of.</p>
<p>Study abroad students don't take any Oxford exams. Usually the essays they wrtie for tutorials (which for enrolled Oxford students don't count) are given a grade and their home school in the US will have a system of translating these grades into the GPA system. They all seem to be different.</p>
<p>Theoretically our exams are marked against a perfect answer written by a professor, whereas US grades are marked against what an undergraduate would be expected to know. So 70% of what a professor would know is actually a really good grade. I got 75% in maths once (undergrad at Cambridge) and this remains my highest grade ever. The vast majority of people get a 2.1 or 2.2 (as explained by Laylah above).</p>