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<p>Absolutely true, but its all about VALUE. At an instate cost, the UC’s, like other top publics (Michigan, Virginia, North Carolina, Wisconsin, Texas…) all offer good-to-great value. But we are discussion OOS fees. So, what else can you get for your $50k per year (and climbing fast)? You could get all the accouterments of a private for about the same money: smaller classes, better counseling, a less competitive environment, less bureaucracy…</p>
<p>Idad, I think your son is right. </p>
<p>Bluebayou, I don’t know about value. I think it depends on what a student wants. I think the OP’s kid should just apply and see what happens. Doesn’t have to go to UCB or any other UC. But at least the student might have the option.</p>
<p>Don’t discount the weather and the employment prospect after graduation. Furthermore, the number of people wishing to attend private colleges will not increase. I guess this number has been saturated since the last 2 years (after top private colleges announced new need-based financial aid policies).
My friends still want to move from Minnesota and Indiapolis to California. And I have to compete on the road everyday. The fast track freeways in CA are not enough to support heavy traffic.</p>
<p>this has been repeatedly stated on CC, but once again: grad students very rarely teach courses at UCB or other UC’s other than entry level composition and language courses; otherwise, they do “sections” for courses taught by professors. There are occasional exceptions (and this goes back to when I was there in the 70’s) - a grad student at the dissertation stage teaching a course in an area of specialization (e.g., The Aeneid) - so someone very talented. This is equally true at Yale and Harvard, which also have large classes. After a class has more than about 40 students, it might as well have 100 - it will be a lecture course. Take a look at the online Yale courses (some of which are terrific), and you will find lecture courses with large numbers of students - and excellent professors - the same is true at UC Berkeley.
The experience at a LAC is very different; it is also very different than Yale, Harvard, and any large public (including Indiana, which is a huge university). For that kind of experience, you just have to go to an LAC. And probably pay a lot more - and it may be worth it, especially if your student gets some financial aid, either need-based of merit-based.
Certainly if your student wants to major in something that is not offered at a UC, then another choice makes a lot of sense. But for the most part, and particularly in the humanities, there will be plenty of courses to take, and many will be as small as anywhere else - apart from a LAC. And the profs are first-rate - as are the grad students who attend these universities. And they won’t find it so easy to move somewhere else unless they are the very top of their fields - there are hiring freezes or limits at almost all of the top universities - including Stanford, one of the richest Universities in the world.
USC just doesn’t compare to UCB and won’t any time soon - except in certain specialized departments.</p>
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<p>Well, uh, sure, ok. But the OP asked for OUR (anonymous opinions) and not what his/her kids “wants”; and my opinion is that UC ain’t worth the OOS cost of attendance.</p>
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One data point: my son majored in a “popular” field at UCSB - Business econ - and has completed all of his graduation requirements as of this quarter. (He was one unit shy at the beginning of the year.) He’ll use the next two quarters (which they will allow him to attend because his four years aren’t up until June) finishing up the “5th year” of courses required for CPA certification.</p>
<p>And I always thought the kid was a slacker. Of course, given a choice between living a couple of blocks from the beach in Santa Barbara over the summer, working and taking two or three courses offered during the summer session, and coming home to the boring 'burbs to live with Mom and Dad, for some reason he’s elected to attend school every summer since enrolling. Go figure.</p>
<p>Welcome to California kluge!
You can check out but you can never leave.</p>
<p>“Of course, given a choice between living a couple of blocks from the beach in Santa Barbara over the summer, working and taking two or three courses offered during the summer session, and coming home to the boring 'burbs to live with Mom and Dad, for some reason he’s elected to attend school every summer since enrolling. Go figure.”</p>
<p>:)</p>
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<p>This is an issue mostly buried in semantics and obscure definitions. Professors do indeed direct the (often huge lectures) and are the teachers listed in the catalog. However, the graduate students who are supposedly not teaching might (depending the programs) have great latitude to establish the curriculum, write the syllabus, and administer AND GRADE the exams and papers. </p>
<p>And, fwiw, the qualifications and preparation of the graduate students are far from being uniform. There is a HUGE difference between a teaching assistant who is a fourth or fifth PhD student and just short of defending his or her dissertation and … a recently debarked foreign student who has to “do sections” while completing his or her Master’s, and perhaps develping his or her language skills. Guess which one generates complaints from undergraduates who are subjected to this level of “education!” </p>
<p>One can churn and twist those semantics ad nauseam, the real question to answer if if this represents a GOOD value for the STUDENT, namely if the tuition and cost to be paid to the university justify being taught by someone who is just a few years older than yourself, and possess neither the dedication nor the preparation to be a teacher.</p>
<p>Regarding class sizes:</p>
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<p>Do not take my word for it. The source is the 2003 University of California, Berkeley: Blue and Gold Yearbook and the author is Michael L. Yang - Berkeley Class of 2003, Computer Science.</p>
<p>" a recently debarked foreign student who has to “do sections” while completing his or her Master’s, and perhaps develping his or her language skills."</p>
<p>I only saw this type of students taking the same upper division classes with me except they have higher expectation in grades and projects from professors.</p>
<p>Xiggi, I thought the whole idea of classes of 12 undergraduates was that the courses are self-taught. No? So what is the difference if professors run the discussions and tas run the discussions?</p>
<p>What does Stanford do with its TAs that Berkeley doesn’t do? What does Berkeley do with gsis that is different Than Yale and Harvard?</p>
<p>Xiggi, Stanford has large classes too.</p>
<p>From your link…</p>
<p>One on one tutoring from some of the smartest students in the country. </p>
<p>“With the academic end, UPE o®ers free one-on-one tutoring
for any computer science or mathematics course. For industry
bound students, UPE sponsored several info sessions a
year with companies looking to hire graduates and interns.
Kurt Diegurt, a sophomore in computer science, was once
such person who found an internship through an info session.
\I made a connection with Intel when a representative
came to speak at an info session,” explains Diegurt, his
summer I’m working at Intel as an intern." For graduate
school bound students, UPE hosted seven to eight \faculty
luncheons" a year. During these luncheons, undergraduates
had the chance to meet computer science professors
who talked about their area of research in computer science.
Students in the past have been able to ¯nd research advisors
through these luncheons."</p>
<p>I feel very strongly about the advantages of private school vs. public if it is affordable for the family. Our D is in the Communications school at Boston University and is getting an amazing education, being taught by full professors, and has had only one class with over 30 students (she is a sophomore). We are California residents, and her friends at the UCs tell stories of overcrowding in the dorms with housing very difficult to find after freshman year (BU guarantees all 4 years), classes of 200-300 kids for intro courses, some of which are being taken via remote hookup on laptops, and other obstacles and difficulties. I’m not saying that’s everyone’s experience, but I am saying that at her private school -and most others - the faculty bends over backwards to get students the classes they need and offer tons of personal help.</p>
<p>That being said, our son will be heading to Arizona State next year - he is opting to go out of state, with our blessing, to be in a different environment and be AWAY from home. Our local Cal State is an excellent school, but we feel strongly that the college experience should include leaving the nest and being on his own.</p>
<p>Which brings me to another drawback about the UCs - the lack of diversity. With so few OOS students, California kids are with other California kids. I don’t think bringing in an increased amount of OOS will change the demographic that much. What my daughter has gained from meeting people from all over the country - and the world - is almost as important as the top notch education she’s getting.</p>
<p>For California residents, the UCs are an invaluable resource for higher education, especially at the top schools. I have no issue with the budget increases, as the UCs are still a bargain compared to other state universities. I just strongly believe that for OOS students, there are better options for $50,000 a year.</p>
<p>columbia-student: this is a side issue, but according to USC’s own administration, it has had serious budget concerns, beyond eliminating the German department. A recent article in the Trojan talks about putting a project to build a new student health facility on hold for budget reasons.<br>
This particular project was put on hold in the pre-construction process, said Robert Cooper, vice provost for planning and budget. USC had a hiring and salary freeze along with a construction freeze for many projects. We couldnt delay the campus center and other things that were already in progress, but this got put on hold.</p>
<p>Perhaps they couldn’t delay expanding the business department either, despite the hiring and salary freeze in the rest of the University. Priorities…
At least UCB still has a German department.</p>
<p>OP here, thank you all for responding, I value all the feedback. We have not been able to visit any of the UC’s (son has done EPGY at Stanford so he knows that area). </p>
<p>Stanford has been his dream school since then, but he knows his chances are close to zero there. He is applying to USC now which seemed like a reach too until the ACT results came. Luckily the essay is ready.</p>
<p>Tier 1 UC’s would be reaches for him due to the OOS/GPA, hence my take on applying to the tier 2 UC’s too, to have some options ready at decision time. </p>
<p>He is also applying to UT, Rice, Vandy. Hopefully by the time decisions are out we will have a better grip on the budget issue. But who knows now with the Dubai crisis looming ahead!</p>
<p>there may be many reasons to choose one university over another, but diversity? The UC’s are certainly as racially diverse as, e.g., BU, and more economically diverse than most top schools, because they are public. And California is larger than many countries, so just having students from around California makes it diverse.<br>
And is it “worth” the price for an OOS student? Is BU? Is Tufts? Is Arizona? For that matter, is USC “worth” that same price of around $50,000 a year? Maybe. It depends on what the student wants to study, how much funding is available, etc. But to rule out the UC’s, especially for Californians, based on the budget cuts seems an over-reaction.</p>
<p>mamenyu, USC might not have money to build new health center, note the word new, some part of USC Master plan is not complete in time as planned. That being said, my daughter will be moving in to a brand new USC apartment next year for less than half the cost of similar UCLA appartment.</p>
<p>The situation is different from the effect of budget cuts on the UCs, take it from Yudoff
[Yudof</a> Discusses UC System’s Financial Future - The Daily Californian](<a href=“http://www.dailycal.org/article/106061/]Yudof”>http://www.dailycal.org/article/106061/)</p>
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For UCLA the dorms are typically triples for first year and doubles or singles after that and the last I checked on-campus housing is guaranteed for 3 years and they had a plan in place to offer 4 years of on-campus housing starting in 2010 but maybe that’s changed although they’re in the process of building new dorms now.</p>
<p>For UCSD it’s similar with the exception of a guaranteed 2 years on-campus (unless it’s changed recently) with the first year typically in a res hall and the second year in on-campus apartments. </p>
<p>For both UCSD and UCLA there’s a large amount of private apartments available for rent in the fairly immediate area (Westwood for UCLA and the ‘UTC area’ of La Jolla within a few minutes of campus well served by the campus shuttle and city bus routes.</p>
<p>I know UCB used to only offer one year of on-campus housing but I heard they went to 2 years a couple of years ago. I don’t know what it is now.</p>
<p>I do know that it seems that most students would just as soon move off-campus after a couple or three years anyway to get a bit more independence, larger accommodations, a kitchen/LR, and it’s usually less expensive. </p>
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This will depend on the context of the statement. Since the UCs don’t practice racial discrimination the racial mix is not generally representative of the immediate areas surrounding the campuses and not even of California and isn’t fine tuned to some predefined formulaic mix of races that some privates might do. Whites are not the majority at the top few UCs. When one sees the stats regarding the percentage of IS versus OOS the stats don’t capture just how diverse that really is with a very large number of IS students who are actually from other countries - mostly Asian countries. One only needs to walk around the campus at UCLA, UCSD, UCB and listen to the variety of languages being spoken to see this isn’t exactly a standard mix of California residents. This may not be what some people are looking for if they’re looking for ‘diversity’ but it’s not an important criteria for a lot of students - many of whom aren’t that concerned about the racial makeup of the campus. I know that my kids have certainly roomed with a number of people of different races and countries of origin than them which has all worked out fine.</p>
<p>I do agree that most of us need to pay attention to costs with colleges and it’s certainly possible that some students may get a better deal (qualities in education/fit/etc. versus cost) at some privates versus some publics. However, I also think some students can get a better education and have more opportunities and perhaps even a better ‘fit’ at some publics versus some privates as well. It’s not a black and white decision. Some posters here obviously have chosen privates over the UCs and are happy with the decisions and others have chosen UCs over privates and are happy with those decisions. I don’t think it’s a no-brainer for someone who doesn’t have a desirable IS option to just choose a private over a high-end public. In this case the CS grad from UCB/UCLA/UCSD will have as many employment opportunities as if they were IS grads of the same colleges. If one ends up with better opportunities paying, for example, $42K at UCLA OOS (tuition/fees+housing/meals) versus about $50K for the same costs (UCLA isn’t the $50K that’s been stated), and they happen to prefer that environment, then it’s a good choice for them. Others might be willing to pay the extra $8K for USC over UCLA for the attributes of USC vs. UCLA that appeal to them. The variable is in the merit aid or other ‘grant’ aid the student might get at one versus the other.</p>
<p>I think the best advice for the OP is to have the S apply to all of the campuses he’s somwhat interested in and then seeing what pans out and deferring the final decision until the playing cards are laying on the table.</p>
<p>'brand new USC apartment next year for less than half the cost of similar UCLA appartment."
Apartments near USC are cheaper than apartments near UCLA for good reason.</p>
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<p>Small nit, those triples are forced triples, i.e., a double room turned into a triple.</p>