Any pre-premeds have questions?

<p>I wasn’t really talking about a “gap year” in terms of applying and asking for a deferment as I was talking about altogether not applying for a while. Let me be more specific.</p>

<p>I’ve always thought I would probably like to be a doctor, but I’m not completely sure; would it be worthwhile to take time after graduating to gain “life experience” before applying to med school at all? Would that break hurt in terms of admissions, or help? For example: joining the peace corps, going to grad school, holding a job (preferably science-related, but maybe not), etc.</p>

<p>Thanks again for your time.</p>

<p>Je ne sais quoi, you’re very,very welcome, and certainly, feel free to PM me. The info I gave you is actually something I recently went through, a close friend’s son is thinking the same way as your daughter, and I recently went through all of this with him too. So I’ve thought a lot about this, and enlisted that ex roomie’s help.I’ll see if I can dig up his emails.</p>

<p>witty wonka, I’m working on your question, will get back to you soon.</p>

<p>tarkman, thank you for taking time to answer questions)
I am wondering how one knows if a career in medicine is for them. My aunt is a doctor and I saw how hard it was for her, so I want to know that if I choose to go into medicine, it’s the right choice for me. Right now I am interested, but how do I know I wont drop out because I can’t handle cadavers (wich happened to my friend in Europe this year)?</p>

<p>Tarkman - I’m the parent of a sophomore son who wants to go into medical research moreso than becoming a Dr (though he knows he might need his MD for many aspects of research). He’s currently considering U of Rochester for undergrad due to the ability of undergrads there to be involved in several aspects of research (to better gauge which area he might want to head toward). What other schools should I have him investigate? Right now he’s thinking he likes molecular…</p>

<p>@ creekland …to me, U Roch has an excellent med school…I’m not too aware of the undergrad rep for premed though…beware any stats the school may throw at you, they can always be fudged. WRT to MD PhD, please look at my replies to Je ne sais quoi…to me, it’s not an easy decision because the results might be less than expected…ie, get a super hot rod md phd degree then go out and find a cure for cancer… I’m not making light of it, many have that expectation. As I said before, proceed with caution, but certainly, your son should follow his own decisions…it should be an informed decision though…I’m going to post that email I got from my ex roomie, the MD PhD from Harvard, when asked by my friend’s son about whether to pursue this route… kind of suprised me too… ab out schools for molec bio, I don’t want to sound repetitious, but Hopkins /Hopkins Med for under premed /research/grad /med to me is tops…I trained under Al Lehninger there…for those of you who don’t know him, google the name…his texbook “Biochemistry” is THE bible for many, from the student to the nobel winner. Other top notch biochem that I can vouch for : UPenn, Duke, Wash U )</p>

<p>So here’s the EM from my friend, take it for what it’s worth, but it’s good to get a contrasting opinion from someone who’s been the MD PhD route, and from the big H , no less. He was the most intelligent student I have met, and that includes today’s kids…this BTW, is what I would call a “pearl”:</p>

<p>"Some thoughts:</p>

<ol>
<li> It depends to some extent on what your end goal might be, academia or private practice. However, these are unfortunately moving targets and the benefits of going to Harvard are limited.
*</li>
<li> I am not sure that there is any great benefit in doing a PhD. If you do a residency afterwards, your research will be 6 years out of date.
*</li>
<li> To be honest, Harvard was a disappointment. Very political, not very intellectually stimulating
*
At this point looking back, I would go for what is real. Find someone that you admire and who is doing amazing work and go there. If there is no one that fits this description, stick nearby your family and friends because it will maintain your quality of life. Very few people care where you went to school, 20 years later. It won’t necessarily help you make the world a better place and unless you are political and willing to make ethical compromises, you will probably not rise within a system of that type.</li>
</ol>

<p>Trust yourself. What do you want to do or change in the world? Where can you find the tools to do it? Keep a laser sharp focus on that and you will waste less of your precious time and effort chasing illusions. Time flies so don’t waste a minute of it on institutions that don’t deserve your respect."</p>

<p>Lefleur, your question is a good one, but I’m not sure if it’s the right one at this point. What physicians do is so diverse, there probably would be a niche in there for you if you really wanted to be one. </p>

<p>A more appropriate question would be, “how do I know I want to TRY to become a doctor?” , because that’s what is immediately ahead of you, that’s what you should concern yourself with now. Like the zen saying goes, it’s like trying to ride a horse on top of a horse…one thing at time, life is already difficult enough.Think about it long enough, live life,finish college and the answer should come to you. I don’t have to say the usual questions everyone asks themselves. I think it’s unfair of society to ask a young student to make up their minds at such an early age, hence my hesitation towards the 6 year programs. The process of college in and of itself is what you need to do to find out. .</p>

<p>Trust your own development, and your ability to mature to the point of making that decision, don’t rush it. As I said, the question for now really, is, " do I want to try, to do the premed curriculum ?" You can, and still change your mind and take up another profession. even at the last minute…I wouldn’t advise it…but I had a friend who was an organic chemistry major. wanted to do chemistry for the rest of his life,…got A’s…junior year, he got dumped by his girlfriend, and he underwent a sea change in attitude, and he applied late,…of course he came to his senses months later, and withdrew the app…he would have gotten in, no question…but he wanted to do research in Organic chem. Now , no one could have counseled him through all of that, that experience was the answer itself. </p>

<p>WRT not wanting med school bec. you’re afraid of fainting at the sight of a cadaver…that shouldn’t stop you. It’s only is for 1 semester. That shouldn’t deter you from your lifetime ambition. Additionally, I think it’s ridiculous that all med students have to do anatomy. It’s like a hazing ritual to get into the good ol’ boys club of medicine. But it’ll never go away, so you’ll have to deal with it. Everyone gets over it.</p>

<p>Good luck !</p>

<p>What is the meaning of being waitlisted at a med school and what are the odds of getting in?</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I’m interested to hear how you’re going to tell someone if this is what they should be doing with the rest of their life.</p>

<p>Further, there are at least 4 physicians (several very experienced in their respective fields and on med school admissions committees) and 5 current medical students who frequent this board on a regular basis. There are plenty of us who have been through the process and have offered our advice for a long time. </p>

<p>For someone who tries to dismiss USNWR rankings you seem overly concerned with prestige and name-dropping.</p>

<p>@Bigredmed, In my last post, I have answered the question as best I could. I didn’t say I could answer those questions like the guru you and those 4 physicians must be, but,I said those are the more important questions that aren’t being asked. There’s a difference,subtle, I realize, my bad for not being more explanatory…perhaps misunderstandings could crop up when communicating from keyboard to keyboard… I had meant that these questions were the more germane ones students should be confronting. I was actually paraphrasing that question as it is asked by most students, for clarity. I looked up “Namedropping” in the OED, and it is defined as " the practice of casually mentioning the names of famous people one knows or claims to know in order to impress others"…if you mean I frequently use the names JHU, WashU, Penn, Lehninger, I’m guilty as charged, but I try to do it in a responsible way, I feel there is merit to my mentioning them, so as to illustrate my points. It is neither casual, nor do I feel the need to impress anyone at this stage in my career. But I still feel that the students of this forum should know about these schools.If you were offended that I failed to pay respect your alma mater’s USNWR ranking, then by all means, start another thread, I’d love to benefit from you expertise. I wouldn’t go as far as to say my word is dogma, but I’d like to think I’ve helped out some people in a small way, students and parents.I’ve been helped by someone in this forum , and I’d like to return the favor. If , however, my posts don’t meet with your approval, then, please accept my sincerest apologies.</p>

<p>I not sure why you would bring up the fact that there are 4 other physicians in this forum, some of whom sit on admissions committees …it seemed to me a non sequitur unless you think what I’m saying would be untrue in their esteem. However, I feel fairly comfortable saying that I could be considered to be in your vaunted league of physicians, I’m FACP, double boarded, I did do a fellowship at Hopkins, and I turned down a Harvard fellowship with K.Frank Austen ,to go there, but …here’s the disclaimer…yes, I did get rejected from their med schools ( is this namedropping? ) .</p>

<p>I have found that, and I’m guilty of this too, people tend to forget there is another person at the other end of that IP address, and the seeming anonymity of the internet seems to provide an excuse to drop the usual mindfulness of the other person. I always tell my staff that if there is disagreement, respect the other person, and do it behind closed doors.</p>

<p>But overall, I’m honored that another physician would comment on my thread, and I extend my welcome.</p>

<p>DocT, have a look at this link</p>

<p>[Acceptances</a>, Waitlists, & Rejections](<a href=“Pre-Professional Advising | Student Affairs”>Pre-Professional Advising | Student Affairs)</p>

<p>It quotes Tufts as saying they admit anywhere from 12- 40 folks off the waitlist… I’m not sure how many are on the list though.</p>

<p>A med school accepts approx. 250-300 applicants from the 3500 or so applicants yearly, to fill approx 130-150 seats. Those on the waitlist are those ranked below those 300 people. At my med school, the last person accepted into our class came 1 week after the first day, in late august.</p>

<p>Shrinkrap, thank you for reading and commenting. I certainly appreciate your time in doing so. I could use the help. I too graduated 25 years ago, but my experiences seem like yesterday, and I still find the many issues that faced me ( as did you and the other physicians here ) are still fascinating… Since my children are also in the process, I feel that some of my opinions might have some currency, and I do also try to keep up by reading the Hopkins premed website. I , as you, and the others have a lot of friends who we can tap for information as well, those in both the private and academic worlds.I’ll try to be the conduit for that for as long as my time allows. With respect to etiquette…I certainly hope no umbrage was taken by any of my remarks, no slight was intended,especially to those who have invested a lot of time in this forum, student, or physician. And I do welcome all the questions, it keeps me honest. Addressing big red’s other comments, I didn’t mean to imply that this thread was the only source of premed information, nor that these topics have never been broached before by those more venerable than I . I enjoy helping out someone ( hopefully ), who is taking the same path I did. </p>

<p>Normally, I try to avoid negative discourse on web boards, and collegeconfidential can certainly be a hotbed at times…there are many people who feel passionately about thses topics, and rightly so, but I decided to start this thread because I’m much indebted to another parent in this forum, and this is one way I could repay her kindness. </p>

<p>I agree with your last statement as well, and I continue to be impressed by all the students’ comments.( especially on this thread)…I sometimes wonder if I , at their age, would have had the same meaningful questions. </p>

<p>With that said, please allow me to be rude, and return to the discourse, they’re probably getting bored with me !</p>

<p>Many thanks,Shrinkrap !</p>

<p>How can you be “a physician, and a premed”</p>

<p>That’s not possible…</p>

<p>Limabeans, I neglected to answer one of your questions… re: global policy on infectious diseases…I’d like to suggest the Bloomberg School of Public Health, at Hopkins, .I find the interface of world politics, disease, econimics,and the human response to disease to be fascinating, especially the efforts to eradicate malaria… Peter Agre, Nobel laureate is heading up the malaria research unit there, and is attempting to use molecular medicine as a novel therapy. This is such a widespread disease ,especially when you consider that sickle cell disease and thalassemia are related illnesses. Kudos to your son in showing interest in this area…it takes a lot of maturity. </p>

<p>This my humble opinion on course selection…know what is coming donw the pike before you get there…errors in judgement can be costly… and worse, irreversible…I tell my daughter it’s like writing your name in wet concrete…when it dries, there’s no taking it back ! An example…many of us at Hopkins were just high school seniors, there to learn. But we didn’t realize we were there to learn the course material, the strategy should have been prepared before, not learned on the spot there, and it cost some of us. A few were smart though, they had a goal when they came…the vilified hopkins premed…they wanted to get into the Hopkins 7 year med program…here hopkins med accepts you after your 2d year, not your 4th…this means fewer years to risk getting a B…and actually, when you apply, they only look at your first three semesters. So they knew that, and many only took the bare minimum credits, to better get A’s across the board. Now one could say that the admissions committee will see it was an easy courseload…but, all I can say is that these kids got in ! It’s hard to argue with a 3.98 gpa no matter how few credits they took. And they didn’t have to worry about not having enough credits to graduate, they were into med school, and could make up the deficit without the pressure of getting the A ( what I call “backloading” the courses) Now I’m not advocating, nor am I approving what they did, but it’s and example of strategizing, and knowing what you want BEFORE the day one. Now that program doesn’t exist anymore, but I still say, freshman year is tough enough as it is, academically and socially, why complicate it with more challenging courses? There will be time enough later on. And the med schools won’t see your entire senior year ( correct me, please if I’m wrong on that), so that’s when you can take the tough ones. With caveats , of course… Another good thing to do is, get to know the premeds, try to get wind of any rumor…Another thing to do : when I took Orgo, the “weeder”, we worked out every question in Morrison and Boyd, even the supplementals. We scoured for old exams…very important…sometimes we had them 5 years backdated. But that means you have to be friends with those who have those tests in their possession. And that means having to find out just WHO has them…this is not advertised information…sometimes the frats had them, you didn’t have to join the frat, just be good buddies with the fratboy…sometimes another student had a brother who kept his old exams,…the more friends you had the better the chance of getting old exams…and if there were three of us, that was tripling it, because in a group, we all shared our old exams, that was the price of admission… We had realized that if we saw all the questions that had been asked before, that narrowed down the number of questions that could potentially stump us. There were friendships that were lost because of old exam hoarding ( personal exp)…</p>

<p>usually one should know too that requirements for a major were more than the requirements for applying to med school…that’s why some schools have a “premed major” one with fewer credit requirements, that more closely approximated those of med schools…e.g., I took Orgo lab ( not the course, the lab, and got a B …aaargh) thinking it was a requirement for med sch…wrong ! So it’s harder to get a B.Sc. in bio or chem for example, so it’s harder to get a high GPA…so …it’s up to your son. I would strike one note of caution…a B.Sc. in chem or bio, or a B.A. with a more known major, like economics, english etc…is a good fallback option than an easy, premed major, if one doesn’t get into med school.But if you figure yuou’re definitely going to med school , then why risk the B ?That’s when you go for the easier major, the “premed” major…Natural Sciences at Hopkins. Of course, I’m not saying to sacrifice one’s education for the sake of getting in…but, be smart about things. A degree in chem or bio etc, will not help you get through med school any better . But you don’t have to declare your major that early, so you can take the minimum first, that’s the writing in wet concrete analogy, then add courses if you do decide to go for the more significant major. You have to check with the individual schools about the timing for declaration of a major. I would consider, if it’s not too compromising, taking the minimum courseload and acing it, up to the minute you have to declare your major.</p>

<p>One last caveat…and this is not directed at you, Limabeans…it’s late at night, and if I made a misstatement, please correct me. But do it nice, I have feelings too.</p>

<p>@Zfanatic, yes , you’re right, I guess I’m an “ex” premed, thanks for pointing it out, LOL.</p>

<p>Thank you again tarkman for continuing to answer questions. If you don’t mind, I’m going to ask my question again, and hopefully connect it with the new flow of the thread.</p>

<p>If you were, say, to go into some sort of biology graduate program (M.S., not Ph.D.) before applying to medical school, would the medical school admission committee look more at your graduate coursework or your undergraduate coursework?</p>

<p>And, again, how would they view someone who took time after undergraduate (independently, not through a deferral) who took time to gain other “life experience” besides/alongside graduate school, such as joining the peace corps, working in a science-related field, etc. Would they (the admission committee) be more focused on the maturity and experience that such a candidate might offer, or would they be more interested in a younger, more recently graduated college student (who had more recently been studying his courses in bio, chem, etc.)? And even if the admissions committee would prefer one or the other, would you recommend one or the other just in terms of “best choice”?</p>

<p>Reading back, this might not make that much sense, but please feel free to ask me to clarify my question(s).</p>

<p>Most medical schools accept 2-4 times the number of spots they have in order to fill them. Harvard and a couple others with unique circumsstances slide under that value, but most schools seem to fall between 2-3. I know this from the data posted by USNWR.</p>

<p>Waitlist use varies a lot from med school to med school and from year to year. Some schools have a small waitlist (I believe Harvard Med only keeps 50 on its waitlist) while other schools will waitlist everyone who doesn’t get accepted initially (and so the waitlist can be 800 people big). Because med school classes are small, they are subject to yearly fluctuations in yield. A school may accept 350 one year and end up overenrolling by 9 kids (and therefore not needing to use the waitlist at all) and the next year, they may need to pull 20 kids from the waitlist. No one can predict that.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Nice strategy but it is easier said than done.</p>

<p>This remind me of what happened at one time: A friend of my child asked my child to “beg” an old test from another girl because that friend somehow knew that the girl had an old test (but my child did not know it even though he was socially closer to that friend.) He felt very uncomfortable about that. (“pimping himself out”?)</p>

<p>The “networking” aspect of a premed life is definitely weakest aspect of my child. (I think he only got hold of the old test twice after maybe 15-20 premed classes.) He rarely hang out with other premeds – as he put it: It is more fun to hang out with non-premed friends - He may be too laid-back as a premed. This may have cost him some GPA points in his premed career, but he is OK with this. (Hopefully, he could stillget into a medical school in his state with this laid-back attitude.)</p>

<p>@ mcat2, thanks, I wish your son the best of luck in the applications process. About getting old exams,you’re right, it is actually easier to say than put into action. But we all ( parents and students) knew this wasn’t going to be easy. </p>

<p>There was a “gut” course, “astronomy 101”, known as “astrogut” which all networked (thanks for the word, good choice ) premeds knew.The coursework was actually hard, as was the test…had to know multivariate calculus BUT…and I found this out only after I took the course…the tests were always almost invariably the same, but usually from three years back so as not to be obvious…( it was probably there to help the lacrosse jocks ) …enter the need for old exams ! As I said before, and this is not to discourage anyone, by all means pursue your dream,and within ethical boundaries, but a B is really anathema to a premed, and as I said before, it is irreversible. Know what your competition is up to and strategize accordingly. </p>

<p>What you say about “selling out” is true…my close friend, let’s call him “Spruce” , who had helped me through calculus , was in another “networking group”. Let’s call them “Pomeranians” …sort of like the study groups in the movie “Paper Chase”…it was an exclusive group, and these folks were obnoxious to a fault, every last one of them ( the head is now chief of infectious diseases in a top 3 medical school ! - not namedropping here) . They were also devious, two of them gotten thrown out for cheating in med school, one later lost his license because he was prescribing narcotics for himself. I’m not exaggerating, life is stranger than fiction… I hated them from the start…But the organic midterm was coming soon, and they had THE old orgo exams going back TEN years. My “in” was Spruce. Now , MY study friend ( Harvey)knew of this , and he asked me to get those old exams. Now, I figured, no problem, but …surprise surprise, I got a big fat NO. Spruce said he would have lent them to me, but he was afraid of getting kicked out of the “Pomeranians”…when I told Harvey about this , he just looked at me , as if to say…“grasshopper,you’re so naive…” I still got my A in orgo, without performance enhancers, so to speak… So , yes, folks, don’t sell your soul to the devil, but be smart about things…</p>

<p>@ wittywonka, I’m still thinking…</p>

<p>@ Wittywonka, This is a quote from the Hopkins premed website about delaying your app:</p>

<p>"There are several other reasons to delay applying, most notably, that you want to take a year or more to accomplish goals or pursue experiences prior to entering medical school. We have had many Hopkins alumni choose to pursue Peace Corps, Teach for America, HealthCorps, and other opportunities before applying to and starting medical school. Medical schools value the maturity and life experience gained after graduation and greatly respect students who engage in one of these types of activities may ultimately make you a more competitive applicant. "</p>

<p>And here is a link to reasons why you might apply a year later:</p>

<p>[Application</a> FAQs](<a href=“Pre-Professional Advising | Student Affairs”>Pre-Professional Advising | Student Affairs)</p>

<p>I found that this info is far more comprehensive than what I would have to say.
However, some thoughts:</p>

<p>You should know why you want to become a doctor by then, and should spend time in a patient care setting to prove that you have thought about this. They want to see that you take this seriously, and have gone that extra step to show it. Your undergrad should have a list of clinical activities for their premed students, or a contact person.</p>

<p>However, the flip side is that this could backfire, and some on the admissions comm might think you’re delaying for other reasons, make sure that year is well planned, and will allay any of those suspicions. Additionally, although this may be the official stance, you might be at a disadvantage at the more selective schools, they have applicants who have done all that and more without taking a year off. So that’s the counterargument you should consider. As I had counseled before, if you haven’t started freshman year yet, or are just finishing it up , let your college/university coursework and experience be your guide…know if you want to try to get in, before you know that you want to be a physician…although there are no clinical courses in undergrad, the basic undergrad curriculum should help you know if you want to proceed, or if there is another field. I’m sorry there is no pat answer, but that’s the way it is…</p>

<p>Hope that helps !</p>