<p>No, that makes good sense. Thank you for your time in posting the excerpt and in commenting personally; I’ll be sure to keep up with this thread to hear your responses to other questions.</p>
<p>I’ve thought of one more question, but this one’s more specific.</p>
<p>You mentioned above that you didn’t have to take a lab for your organic chemistry class; is that fairly standard across all med schools’ admission requirements? You don’t have to take a physics lab, do you?</p>
<p>So, that means the bare minimum in terms of taking labs is two for biology (one per semester) and two for general chemistry, right?</p>
<p>Sorry if this was too basic or common sense; I just wanted to be sure.</p>
<p>“Shrinkrap, thank you for reading and commenting. I certainly appreciate your time in doing so.”</p>
<p>Oops! your welcome.</p>
<p>I’m a big fan of the “delete” function. Sorry…</p>
<p>i’m currently a high school senior and i’ve applied to several 7 yr-8yr med programs but i feel i’m not up to par for them. ultimately i know i won’t make it but am i at a disadvantage by not attending a straight pre-med program? my second question is that i really hate calculus…i completely detest it right now (i’m taking ap calc ab) and i fear that i won’t end up doing too well in college. and since calculus is significant for pre-meds do you have any advice on how to approach subjects that you’re not too good with? and my last question is that is the “secret formula” for getting into medschool having a good gpa+mcat scores, what extra curriculars are taken into consideration?</p>
<p>wiittywonka,</p>
<p>I must apologise for that… it seems they’ve changed since i applied,and labs are required in org, physics and bio and intro chem. Things have gotten tougher…I’m still researching this though.</p>
<p>wittywonka, more info…</p>
<p>I must apologise for not being clear…this info may be variable among the med schools.I now remember the issue when it came to orgo lab…only the first semester is required, not the second, and this is important to know, because orgo lab can be a killer…besides often being impossibly hard, you have to inhale a lot of fumes… minimize your exposure to this course. </p>
<p>Her is a link that backs up my claim, </p>
<p><a href=“http://uc.iupui.edu/uploadedfiles/pre-med.pdf[/url]”>http://uc.iupui.edu/uploadedfiles/pre-med.pdf</a></p>
<p>however, they also state that this may not be true across the board for all med schools, but, as I remember, most of the schools I applied to (18) were similar. This is a bit of info that is not easily available on the web, I really had to search, but please, please , the best thing is call up the schools which you have targeted and make SURE, and be current about the reqs… As I said , play it smart. </p>
<p>A lot of premeds ( myself included did not know this, and unwittingly took orgo lab semester II ) However, reqs may have changed with time this was many moons ago. As I said , though, this could be real important, no need to go through a weeder if you don’t need to. For contrasting advice, I had gone to this website </p>
<p>[Premed</a> Requirements: Overview and Advice](<a href=“http://www.bestpremed.com/preMDreq.php]Premed”>http://www.bestpremed.com/preMDreq.php)</p>
<p>where they incompletely state that you need " one year of orgo with lab" …again, I think it’s worth your time to double check by phone.</p>
<p>The same may be true for the other labs, so, double check, I remember I only did 1 sem of biochem lab, but 2 sem of intro chem …</p>
<p>Well, while I am thankful for finding that out in advance, I am admittedly disappointed that those labs will eat away at other potential electives that I may have wanted to take. I’m assuming that those labs take up time equivalent to what you might spend with another class? So that if you’re aiming to take five classes a semester, any of the yearlong premed requirement science classes (bio, chem, orgo, phys) would eat up two per semester? Between that, a year of writing, and a semester of biochemistry, there’s not a ton of room to work with in terms of electives… Oh well.</p>
<p>Anyway, thank you so much for taking time to answer questions.</p>
<p>Witty wonka, </p>
<p>Unfortunately, orgo lab takes up considerably more time …sometimes I was there past the last call for dinner, and they’d give me a meal ticket…count on 2 hrs minimum to 6 at the high end. Depends on the experiment. On the other hand, it’s sort of fun…I had to synthesize sulfanilamide …a common antibiotic once. The whole lab scene is different too, the booklearning is less, and technique is more. Each person works under an overhead hood, and in a glass enclosed lab desktop…to prevent “flameouts” from occurring…we talk about internet flameouts, well this the real thing… poof! there goes your grade…</p>
<p>However, this is part of the college experience…I’m not being facetious. And at least you don’t have to take it for 2 semesters, that’s significant.</p>
<p>There’s also some premed strategy for taking orgo lab…</p>
<p>desi_chick,</p>
<p>I haven’t forgotten you, your question is a good one, and it’ll take some time to answer well.</p>
<p>Let me say first , that I got rejected from all the 6 year programs I applied to. They did me a favor. I shall expound on this in a bit, it is actually a favorite topic of mine…suffice for now to say that by going to a 6 yr program, you are limiting your future, and shortchanging yourself of the learning experience of those 4 undergrad years. I have told this to countless parents, whose kids go anyway. It’s hard to turn down the Gravy train" , crudely put, but I say, don’t drink the kool aid !</p>
<p>Hmm…I do not know that SOME medical schools may require only one semester of orgo lab. Well…even if this is the case, it is too late for my child to go back and “untake” the lab. I do not know much about all these requirements, but I always thought two orgo labs are required.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I believe this is true at some colleges. The students who aim for a selective medical schools tend to do more than other premeds could manage to do. Although I admire their ambitions, it is a very challenging life. Many of these students try to finish BS and MS programs within 4 years, or at least finish a so-called intensive BS program. There is a school-wide honor award whose criteria is the number of A’s you accumulated in four years (only A’s, excluding A-.) Invariably, those academic stars try to secure this kind of honor (like top 1% maybe. summa may not be good enough for these superstars.) For the last 1.5 or even two years in college, these students are almost like graduate students, staying in the lab for more than 20 hours a week. I heard some spends more than 40 hours a week.) Reason? the research has a potential of loading up a lot of credits semester after semester if you are willing to be a “lab slave” to some PI’s who happen to need you.</p>
<p>It could backfire: the PI may suck the souls/lives out of these ambitious students so much that they can no longer maintain their superior GPA. This is because there are some almost equally smart (but with a somewhat not so outstanding work ethics) students out there who choose the other strategy: take the minimum number of classes (that tarkman mentioned.) Those students have the luxury of spending much more time before each test. There are also many graduate students who take only one class per semester and you need to compete against them also. (Maybe one nice aspect of going to LAC is that you do not have graduate students to compete against in general.)</p>
<p>But every year, there are no lack of students (like 10 students maybe?) who manage to be successful on all fronts. Their work ethics (and efficiency) are amazing.</p>
<p>A question here: If your goal is to get into any non-California public medical school rather than the top/academic ones, do you still need to be as “inhuman” as these superstars? In other words, should the allocation of your time/efforts and the risk management style be any different if you are not interested in getting into any of these top-20 or top-30 medical schools?</p>
<p>When med schools say “1 year of organic chem with lab,” they typically mean 1 year of orgo lecture with 1 sem of orgo lab. There may be med schools that require a full year of lab but I haven’t seen one.</p>
<p>You do need a full year of lab for gen chem, physics, and bio.</p>
<p>^ Thanks for the confirmation. I learn something new today. I wish I knew this before. I guess my English is not good enough to fully understand the meaning of the sentence: “1 year of organic chem with lab.”</p>
<p>Now I understand why a bio major at my child’s school is required to take only one semester of orgo lab.</p>
<p>My child probably should have taken another lab for the general chemistry instead of a second orgo lab. But I think the school may not allow him to do so because he had an AP chemistry in high school and started from a “wrong” first chemistry course. i.e., the first chemistry course meant for an aspired chemistry major.</p>
<p>If he has taken four chemistry labs: one semester of general chemistry lab, one semester of biochemistry lab and two semesters of organic chemistry lab, do you think medical schools will think he has not taken enough chemistry labs?</p>
<p>Hmm…I am still confused about one point. I believe that, at a public school where a science course with an attached lab component is considered as a 4-credit course, both semesters of organic chemistry are 4-credit course. If this is true, it means that the students who take two semesters of organic chemistry are required to take two orgo labs – because there is no other choice here.</p>
<p>Could anybody who is familiar with the public school’s system help clarify this? Is it possible that the first orgo is 4 credits, but the second orgo can be either 4 or 3 credits?</p>
<p>I am just curious about this.</p>
<p>At my school, there is absolutely no choice about orgo lab. Each semester is 4 credits. Lab is 20% of final grade. If you don’t go to lab… well you’ll be lucky if you get a C considering the curve.</p>
<p>To clarify, the requirement is sometimes set in terms of credits, instead of years (such as 8 credits of orgo with lab). At my school, orgo lecture (6 credits) is a separate course from orgo lab (2 credits). So, whether you take two semesters of 4 credit orgo or whether you take it as 2 sem of 3 credit orgo lecture + 1 sem of 2 credit orgo lab, you will still end up with 8 credits of orgo + lab either way.</p>
<p>Now, it makes more sense. My confusion was caused by the fact that not all orgo labs are created equal.</p>
<p>There are three systems:
A) Each lecture is 3 units, and each lab is 1 unit. You need to take 4 units in the same semester. You need to take two 4-unit classes.
B) Each lecture is 3 units, and each lab is 2 units. You need to take two 3-unit lecture classes, and one 2-unit lab.
C) Each lecture is 1 unit, and each lab is 0.5 unit. You need to take two 1-unit lecture classes, and two 0.5-unit labs.</p>
<p>We only talk about the semester system here. Then there are also quarter and tri-semester systems, which I do not want to know.</p>
<p>I heard once that many premeds at UPenn take their orgo lab in senior year, after they apply to medical schools so that it will not consume their “precious time” before MCAT. The lab is one-semester long only, but it takes almost the whole day each week. (I am not 100% sure though.)</p>
<p>An interesting question is: Which system is more time-consuming? I know that, for the system C), a 0.5-unit lab typically takes one afternoon (1:00 pm to 5:00 pm) each week, during the whole semester.</p>
<p>mcat2, thank you for your thoughts on the orgo lab issue. A couple of points, </p>
<p>it’s that THEIR english is no good. Too many websites quote this sentence , and too many students follow it blindly. This is such an important point, but no one really knows it.</p>
<p>and thank you norcal guy for clariying and backing me up on that.The take away lesson is that look carefully at course/major reqs if you can get away with it, don’t take the 2d semester, but as some note, orgo lab comes part and parcel with the course…although this is the minority of colleges.At most schools, you should be able to get away with taking it only 1 semester.</p>
<p>You mention that Penn students take that one semester of orgo lab last…aside from providing them for more MCAT study time ( lab , for most, is almost traumatic…coming back to the dorm , missing dinner, smelling like 6-cholohexene and toluene, it’s in your bloodstream for days… )they do it that way so it’s not on their transcripts that med schools pick out students for interview…very smart…it was a friend at Penn who was the first told me about this lab- requirement-premed -misunderstanding thing. </p>
<p>about the slave for a PI thing, I couldn’t agree with you more…don’t fall for it folks !!In general, in the medical system, the best and brightest kids do not necessarily equal being the best and most well paid physician…to put it bluntly…the administrators and advisors say, " you’re so-o–o smart we have this program…only for the smartest, you know…". and in my opinion, it’s like those years of your life fall into this black hole…</p>
<p>and about cal state schools…more later…gotta go !</p>
<p>Which one is more important for Med. school acceptance, MCAT score or GPA? So far, I heard that MCAT, even with GPA=4.0. What is your opinion?</p>
<p>^ I think it depends on which one is rare. BRM once said that there are fewer high MCAT scorers than high GPAs. An issue is that not all departments are created equal in terms of grading, which dilutes the values of GPA to some extent. Also, not all upper-division courses offered by the same department are created equal (in terms of grading) – This may be the reason why a particular UC medical school insists that the students/applicants take freshman science class, disallow the applicants to skip some of key weeder classes. (orgo is important because of this, as very few students can skip it.)</p>
<p>I think the GPA vs LSAT issue for pre-law students is a more serious one because of the “GPA value” issue I mentioned above (i,e., not all courses/departments are created equally, and they do not have weeder classes like orgo/chem/bio.)</p>
<p>But a 4.0 GPA carries a lot of weight still!</p>
<p>Tarkman, thanks for answering my question.</p>
<p>Typically it is better to have a high MCAT and mediocre GPA than a high GPA and mediocre MCAT, but ultimately both or required for optimal success.</p>