<p>I think that it is not necessarily the school that lands you opportunities in many cases. People who get into ivies or MIT are exceptional people to begin with. These people are more likely to possess strong leadership skills, strong motivation, strong ambition, etc. that will assist them in their future careers post graduation. On the other hand, even if you go to state school but you do well and have positive personal traits, you stand as good of chance to be successful in long run. For grad school admissions, though, it does help tremendously if you go to prestigious undergrad schools. Esp. if you want to go to med or law schools that are top ranked, since most top med or law schools pick majority of their classes from top undergrad schools, it will help you.</p>
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People who get into ivies or MIT are exceptional people to begin with.
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<p>Which in no way implies that people who don't get into Ivys don't possess leadership traits. Who's to say that they preffered a closely knit LAC to the Ivy they made it to?</p>
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For grad school admissions, though, it does help tremendously if you go to prestigious undergrad schools. Esp. if you want to go to med or law schools that are top ranked, since most top med or law schools pick majority of their classes from top undergrad schools, it will help you.
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<p>I can't speak for med schools, but if you head over to the law board, there's a lot of debate re: that claim. Definitely not to be stated as factually true, especially "tremendously" so. Unknowingly, you summed up the debate in the same post: does a prestigious undergrad actually boost applicants, or are applicants from prestigious undergrads just applying in greater numbers + more likely to meet high admissions standards in the first place? Obviously, students from any school can present solid applications, and one's undergrad won't magically guarantee (or prevent) a strong LSAT performance...it's just a question of the <em>average</em> student from a top school versus the <em>average</em> student from a lower-tier school.</p>
<p>If you search the CC law boards, like I said, you'll be able to read more about this debate. Just know that it's not something written in stone, and even if undergrad is taken into consideration, you'll have a very difficult time arguing that it helps "tremendously." The most common advice over there is "Go to the school that you think will allow you to do your personal best."</p>
<p>Student615: </p>
<p>My dad is an alum of Harvard Law School. He gets news from Harvard Law about how the admission at HLS goes on each year. You will be surprised to find that over a quarter of entire student body at Harvard Law School are students from Harvard undergrad. I highly doubt that all these students (usually around 250) had all gpa above 3.8 at Harvard undergrad and had LSAT above 170. There must be some favoritism working in here. Although Harvard doesn't publish this on their websites anymore, last year I saw this on their website...Besides kids from Harvard, Harvard Law enrolled more than 90 kids from Yale, more than 80 kids from Stanford, about 60 from Princeton, about 55 from UPenn, 50 from Duke, etc. At the same time, Harvard Law enrolled no more than 2 or 3 students from regular state schools at most cases, exception being that top public schools like UMich and UC Berkeley represented about 15 kids each at Harvard Law School. Despite Harvard or other elite schools being considerably smaller in terms of their undergrad student body compared to all these state schools, they do make up about 60 to 70 percent of entire Harvard Law student body. </p>
<p>Also, since my sister was premed last year and was applying to med schools, I do know a bit about the med school admissions. She said that about half of Columbia Med School's student body comes from like 4 schools: Columbia, Harvard, Princeton, and Yale.</p>
<p>Jessiehl,</p>
<p>It all depends on who you speak with. My godfather is a tenured professor of history at Harvard and reviews candidates for Ph.D. in history ever year (no, I do not go to Harvard), and tells us all the time: "i don't care where the hell you went to school...Yale or Ole Miss...you gotta have the GPA, the GREs, the recs, and the sample."</p>
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You will be surprised to find that over a quarter of entire student body at Harvard Law School are students from Harvard undergrad.
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<p>Once again, this issue is not new to the CC forums. The lists you're describing have been posted over on the law boards, along with pages of discussion and many more numerical breakdowns than I could ever give you. On their own, these stats don't mean a lot. There's too much missing info.</p>
<p>I'm not a law adcom. I don't know the answer to this, although I doubt it's black and white. All I'm saying is that it's up for debate. Telling a student that choosing a prestigious undergrad will be a "tremendous" help in the LS application process, stating it like fact, and pointing only to the enrolled students stats for support may be well-intentioned advice, but it's misleading.</p>
<p>A lot of parents in the Parents forum who are MDs or who have spouses that are medical professors have repeatedly stated that GPA is most important for medical school, not the school nor the major. A 3.6 uw GPA engineering major from MIT is competitive with 3.80 uw GPA English major from Michigan State(not even U of Mich).</p>
<p>A prestigious school might not be ticket to financial success but it is a ticket to a culture of people who are enlightened. For example, I get frustrated when I step out of campus and I see that everything is so freakin gendered because I'm not used to that at Northwestern. People here are also less shallow, nicer, genuinely classier but also more down-to-earth, smarter but also humbler, better-looking but care less about looks. I'm repulsed by the snooty people on North Michigan Avenue who are very materialistic, have fake confidence and who think they have something to feel superior about. I care more about the personal values and ideologies of the people around me than their material success, and this is why I value being at a top school.</p>
<p>If you think that you can't find ALL of those things at a "non-top" school or a "second-tier" school, then obviously being at a top school hasn't taught you much...</p>
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A prestigious school might not be ticket to financial success but it is a ticket to a culture of people who are enlightened. For example, I get frustrated when I step out of campus and I see that everything is so freakin gendered because I'm not used to that at Northwestern. People here are also less shallow, nicer, genuinely classier but also more down-to-earth, smarter but also humbler, better-looking but care less about looks. I'm repulsed by the snooty people on North Michigan Avenue who are very materialistic, have fake confidence and who think they have something to feel superior about. I care more about the personal values and ideologies of the people around me than their material success, and this is why I value being at a top school.
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<p>Those are all excellent reasons to choose a school, but they don't apply to every top school, nor are they exclusive to prestigious institutions. </p>
<p>What you're saying is far from meaningless...I understand your point, and it's an important one. I think you're making it out to be more black and white than it is, though. Geography plays a big role (location of the school as well as geographic breakdown of the students), as do diversity, political leanings, and atmosphere in general.</p>
<p>ETA: Cross-posted with ASA.</p>
<p>I think people are oversimplifying the grad school application process. Like Mollie pointed out in her blog(the link's here somewhere), applying and getting into top grad schools is not as easy as people think. Going to a prestigious college is certainly not a ticket to a high paying job or to Harvard Law, but it very possibly offers more resources and opportunities than a lower ranked/state school can offer its general school population. It's no surprise that most top grad school Ph.D candidates also come from top undergrads; its not the top undergrad that got them in, but the accessibility to top faculty and internships/fellowships that comes from attending such a well-known university. </p>
<p>I also read posts from people that think they will automatically do well at a low ranked undergraduate college and be accepted to their dream PhD program or Med School. It is most definitely not that simple. Many times, you will find that there is a small but very motivated group at that local state school that has the same agenda as you; you are not the first one to come up with the idea! And if this ends up being the case, that you don't qualify stats-wise for that dream program, then you end up entering the workforce. I don't think its arguable that the job opportunites immediately after undergrad are much more accessible and impressive at a top college than those of a state college or lower tier school; if you refuse to believe this then i'm not sure what to say. </p>
<p>Lastly, I don't think its fair to say that students a top ranked school won't be more intellectual or academically driven than the general student body at a lower-ranked school. That's the point of going to a top school; to be around a group of motivated students like oneself.</p>
<p>Yes, I might seem biased because i'm attending UChicago next year, but I didn't write this response out of my self-interest. After all, I haven't yet started college but this post basically sums up my reasons for picking UChicago over other very generous offers from very decent state schools.</p>
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I'm not a law adcom. I don't know the answer to this, although I doubt it's black and white. All I'm saying is that it's up for debate. Telling a student that choosing a prestigious undergrad will be a "tremendous" help in the LS application process, stating it like fact, and pointing only to the enrolled students stats for support may be well-intentioned advice, but it's misleading.
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<p>There are some things in this world for which you can't support with absolute hard statistics and hard facts. However, in this case, it is to an advantage that someone attends Harvard if he desires to end up at HLS. My dad told me that most of the people who get into HLS with lower gpa than usual Harvard Law School gpa standard is Harvard undergrads and some others. If you doubt this, ask an Harvard Law adcom and prove me wrong. HLS does cut slack with Harvard undergrads with somewhat strong LSATs, but not 3.8+ gpas. A Harvardian with 3.6 -3.7 would be given serious consideration under HLS adcoms while someone with that gpa from a state school won't most likeley to get accepted to HLS. As you said yourself, you ain't law school adcom. I ain't either. So, you don't have an evidence nor knowledgeable arguments to assert that my data and my view on this subject, which was enforced by many people including my dad and his friends from his law school, is wrong. People like you won't believe anything unless we bring in a Harvard Law adcom and he/she confirms my argument. But, what I am saying in this subject is well informed which is supported by numerous Harvard Law alums, which is more substantial, more logical, and more updated than your argument on this particular subject.</p>
<p>To some level it is true that it doesn't matter. However if a student goes to Harvard, does research with professors associated with HMS, knows several of those that are on the admissions committee on a personal basis, it seems to me they have an advantage in getting into HMS as an example. Also many students don't go on to grad school and a prestigious school can be advantageous. There are also very good contacts for the future.</p>
<p>ETA: So much cross-posting! This was in reference to Beefs' post #31.</p>
<p>In many ways, a good post, but there are some generalizations that stand out to me...</p>
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I think people are oversimplifying the grad school application process.
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<p>Agreed. I'll add to that the reminder that grad/law/med/mba/whatever schools each have their own different processes. For some, research is absolutely key. For others, it's all about GPA and test scores. For still others, you won't get far without solid work experience. Few of us are intimately familiar with all of the processes, so it's good to be specific.</p>
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I don't think its fair to say that students a top ranked school won't be more intellectual or academically driven than the general student body at a lower-ranked school. That's the point of going to a top school; to be around a group of motivated students like oneself.
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<p>I don't remember seeing this claimed, but I think you may be referring to the last few posts. Not every "top ranked school" has a particularly intellectual student body, and some lower ranked schools do. I can think of one highly ranked, well-respected school that I've heard described as "a good place for high-achieving kids to go be total morons in the company of their intellectual peers." So to speak in generalities is fine, but it needs to be known that there are exceptions. A high ranking won't guarantee the atmosphere that sanjenferrer is describing, nor will a lower ranking necessarily prevent it. What I was trying to get at in my last post is the fact that rankings are only part of a complex picture, and individual institution is more important than ranking when it comes to certain qualities. I would never say that "students at a top ranked school won't be more intellectual or academically driven than the general student body at a lower-ranked school"...I'd just say that you need to research more than stats if you want to be sure that an intellectual, highly motivated, cultured, open-minded, non-materialistic, down to earth, etc. student body is what you'll be getting.</p>
<p>Agreed, every top school does not offer that environment. But if i go to the USNWR rankings and look at the top 20 colleges, I'm fairly certain that save 1 or 2, all those colleges offer a very intellectual, academic atmosphere.</p>
<p>patlees88: </p>
<p>I'm neither qualified to debate this with you, nor am I interested in doing so. But there can be a lot at stake when people are selecting undergrads, particularly if they're planning on pursuing pricey grad programs such as law. If you're looking for a debate, then I'll say again that you should read the discussions that already exist on the law board, and you should do so before stating anything here as fact. Because your dad 'said so' does not make it my responsibility to call Harvard and prove you wrong. You and he may well be correct, and I'm not arguing that. All I'm pointing out is that there is more to the debate than you're recognizing, and that any student for whom this question is relevant should look further before basing decisions on your original claim (or on its opposite).</p>
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So, you don't have an evidence nor knowledgeable arguments to assert that my data and my view on this subject, which was enforced by many people including my dad and his friends from his law school, is wrong.
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<p>^ I haven't been arguing that you're wrong. I'm not in any position to do that. I've simply been pointing out that there's more to the debate...that it is indeed a debate and not a question of obvious 'right' or 'wrong'. </p>
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People like you won't believe anything unless we bring in a Harvard Law adcom and he/she confirms my argument. But, what I am saying in this subject is well informed which is supported by numerous Harvard Law alums, which is more substantial, more logical, and more updated than your argument.
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<p>^ I haven't made much of an argument, and neither have you. What I've said is that this topic has been discussed over and over and over on the law forums. Contributing posters have included top law grads, successful attorneys, and law school bound students, and they've presented their own arguments, further statistics, and quotes from adcoms. If you're interested, I suggest doing a search.</p>
<p>It depends on the major and field. I've seen graduates from USCB got into Yale Phd Programs.</p>
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But if i go to the USNWR rankings and look at the top 20 colleges, I'm fairly certain that save 1 or 2, all those colleges offer a very intellectual, academic atmosphere.
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<p>Noting that different kids mean different things by "intellectual, academic atmosphere" (Inside or outside of the classroom, or both? Does 'work hard, party hard' count? Are students very pre-professional, or interested in learning for learning's sake?), that's probably fair. Although it's probably equally fair for a good number more than just the top 20. Anyway, point taken. It's an absolutely fair claim, I just wanted to recognize that it's not without its exceptions.</p>
<p>Student615:</p>
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I'm neither qualified to debate this with you, nor am I interested in doing so. But there can be a lot at stake when people are selecting undergrads, particularly if they're planning on pursuing pricey grad programs such as law. If you're looking for a debate, then I'll say again that you should read the discussions that already exist on the law board, and you should do so before stating anything here as fact. Because your dad 'said so' does not make it my responsibility to call Harvard and prove you wrong. You and he may well be correct, and I'm not arguing that. All I'm pointing out is that there is more to the debate than you're recognizing, and that any student for whom this question is relevant should look further before basing decisions on your original claim (or on its opposite).
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<p>Didn't I specifically say that it is to an 'advantage' that a person attends Harvard in certain cases, which includes Law School admissions? I am aware that going to Harvard won't guarantee anything, and I am not debating that. It is a fact, however, that there is some advantage associated with the Harvard degree and for someone to argue otherwise would be suggesting that Harvard degree ain't worth any more than any others', which is pathetic. I am not doing 'search' on the internet forum trying to read other student's arguments. I know quite plenty about this material knowing exactly 25 Harvard Law alums.</p>
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I haven't made much of an argument, and neither have you. What I've said is that this topic has been discussed over and over and over on the law forums. Contributing posters have included top law grads, successful attorneys, and law school bound students, and they've presented their own arguments, further statistics, and quotes from adcoms. If you're interested, I suggest doing a search.
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<p>I belive there is more credential and substantiality to listen to what Harvard Law alums say about this subject, which is verified by the stats I posted. Harvard Law does cut slack with kids from Harvard and other top schools. I was simply pointing out to an advantage of going to a top school, then you jumped to your own bias and have attempted to prove me wrong. But, not to debate with you but in order to answer OP's question, I do confidently say that going to a prestigious undergard would be beneficial in some, not all, cases including Law school admissions. I really feel like this is getting extremely repititive in a very bad way.</p>
<p>You've shared your opinion and made it very clear that I would be wasting my time to try and interject any further information. Of course I have my own ideas and my own supporting information, but it hasn't been my goal to "prove" anything here, mostly because I'm aware of how fruitless such a debate would be. Well, to reiterate, I'm not trying to prove you wrong. To reiterate, you may well be correct. To reiterate, this debate exists elsewhere, both on CC and in general, where it's more fleshed out and well substantiated than we've made it here, but where it's still largely inconclusive.</p>
<p>To anyone who is interested in (or who might benefit from) reading more--and if you're not, then please don't bother--doing a search on the CC law forum would be a decent jumping off point.</p>
<p>It's also worth noting that "going to a prestigious undergrad would be beneficial in some, not all, cases" is different than stating, without further clarification, that "it does help tremendously," which is the claim to which I originally responded.</p>
<p>And because I agree that this has become very quickly pointless, patlees88, if you have anything further for me (that is, anything that wouldn't add to the info already contained in this thread), please use PM.</p>