Any value to rankings at all??? Discuss

Parents Forum
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<p>I can't believe after the time I've spent here that I'm even posing this question but here goes!</p>

<p>I'm looking at the Businessweek rankings of undergrad business schools. Is there any value to ranking at all? If so, where do the differences lie? </p>

<p>I would argue that there is a substantial difference between first and last, but how about 50th and 20th? or 70th and 60th? Is there any reason to do undergrad business at all if the school is ranked lower than say 50th, unless you are doing a special program like accounting or majoring in an area that is a particular specialty of the school?</p>

<p>Is the area of the country where you go to school more important? For example, doing banking and finance at Wake Forest because you are close to Charlotte? Would it be better to study business in a growing area of the country? Here in the South, a lot of foreign companies are relocating - does that make international business or IR a more attractive major, or is straight finance or management better?</p>

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<p>Hi Cangel.</p>

<p>I opened this thread because I really like your posts, but unfortunately, I am not an expert in this area.</p>

<p>My dad was a big mucky-muck in business and he always stressed that he hired folks with a strong skill set, like English majors and math majors. Claimed the business stuff could be learned later. This is probably very old fashioned, but with so many kids pursuing business degrees, I would still say that having strong knowledge in a particular area outside of business is helpful. For instance, for international business, a language is great. For advertising, graphic art background is important.</p>

<p>If it were my child I would concentrate on making sure s/he had solid skills that a business would want and not just concentrate on the degree. From reading here, it seems I-banking and the financial world are more conscious of the prestige of the school than other businesses. For other businesses the consensus seems to be to attend a well-known regional school.</p>

<p>I know; my post is somewhat like the blind leading the blind, but I wanted to respond.</p>

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<p>I'm not an expert in business, but I know in architecture the location of the school is very important and may even trump overall rank unless you are interested in becoming a star architect. I think it's very hard to rate the value of overall name and reputation vs. local contacts in any field unless you are very sure what you'll be doing afterwards. </p>

<p>I have to admit I'm a bit prejudiced against the idea of undergrad business at all - I'd rather see more of a liberal arts type education. (Parent of a kid studying computer science at CMU, so a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.)</p>

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<p>Virtually all of the undergrad business programs today require heavy emphasis in the liberal arts. In fact, the accediting body for undergraduate accounting programs REQUIRES that at least 50% of courses be outside the business program itself. </p>

<p>Every business program my d. is applying to requires a foreign language, even though the liberal arts program at the same schools often do not.</p>

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<p>With a very few exceptions (Wharton, Sloan, Cornell Hotel and ILR, maybe some others) I think the value of an undergraduate business degree will likely be reflected in regional, not national, hiring, and no general rating system is going to capture regional differences much. Also, a school's strength in finance or accounting may not mean so much to someone interested in marketing or human resources, and vice versa, and the rankings are going to wash that out, too. </p>

<p>However, reasonably good-faith rankings usually communicate some useful information, if you pay attention to how the rankings are determined. I can't imagine that a difference of 10 places anywhere in the hierarchy reflects a meaningful difference, and given the bell-curve nature of rankings in general once you get away from the top I would doubt that 20 or 30 places mean much, either, to an individual student's experience.</p>

<p>In your position, it probably makes sense to use rankings, if at all, to assess the differences between schools in a particular geographical area in which your child is interested, and to highlight what sorts of questions you ought to be asking yourself about the schools. You should probably look more at the components or the rankings and less at the overall bottom line. And, in the end, their most useful feature may be to convince you and your kid that it's OK to make a decision based on where he or she likes the look of the buildings more, or where is closer to the girl/boyfriend, because the educational experience between two options will be more or less the same.</p>

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<p>No real knowledge to impart here - just a comment: My D is one of those no-nonsense possible-business-majors who wants to live in a major city once she graduates. One of those cities is Chicago, which is the main reason why she loves her safety (DePaul) so much. Its School of Commerce is not-so-highly rated nationwide, but it has an excellent regional reputation and an extensive alumni network in the Chicago area. (Plus, it has a good program for entrepeneurship.) If she were interested in, say, Miami FL, I think DePaul would be a terrible choice, but in this situation, I can't fault her reasoning.</p>

<p>Agree with mini, too - business schools are more than just business. And every business prof we've talked to emphasized the importance of good writing skills and the necessity of foreign language experience.</p>

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<p>Thanks, the types of answers and perspectives I'm getting are helpful, keep 'em coming! they are reinforcing some of the thoughts I have had.</p>

<p>DS has very different needs and wants than DD, and from the more typical CC student - he has a clear definite (to him) first choice, but is open enough to look at some other options. He is undecided as to major, leaning toward business, so a strong liberal arts component is a must, and a wide range of majors is a plus. He's made his first choice based on pretty campus, good football team and perceived family tradition. He can think beyond that, and is willing to look beyond the first choice (as long as there is football) - I'm just trying to make a start.
Left to his own devices, his list included very far flung schools - Colorado, Michigan State and South Carolina - so I'm trying to come up with a few colleges to visit this spring that can be roped into a one week trip, yet cover a range of choices.
He will be very happy, I think, to do minimum visiting until spring of next year (senior). I think his priorities may be more clear then as well, when he knows what his concrete acceptances are. Also, he's a kid who wants me to give him a list of possibilities, then he will go research them some on the web - or send off for viewbooks, etc. He wants to be involved in the process, and has very strong opinions, but feels overwhelmed by the number of possibilities.</p>

<p>Any more perspectives on business majors? </p>

<p>Any experience with language summer programs or immersion substituting for extra years of language? He has only taken the minimum his school requires and is adamant about not taking anymore.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Top 20 Undergraduate Business Programs
1University of Pennsylvania (Wharton) 2University of Virginia (McIntire) 3UC Berkeley (Haas) 4Emory University (Goizueta) 5University of Michigan (Ross) 6Massachusetts Institute of Technology (Sloan) 7Notre Dame (Mendoza) 8Brigham Young University (Marriott) 9New York University (Stern) 10Cornell University 11Georgetown University (McDonough) 12Villanova University 13University of Texas at Austin (McCombs) 14Boston College (Carroll) 15UNC at Chapel Hill (Kenan-Flagler) 16Washington University (Olin) 17Wake Forest University (Calloway) 18Indiana University (Kelley) 19USC (Marshall) 20Lehigh University

[/quote]
Just looking at the top 20, how could you go wrong? All fine schools, all with loyal alumni, all "household names" with wonderful programs other than business to enhance the college experience or provide alternatives if a student changes his mind.</p>

<p>Any 18 year old kid is highly unlikely to follow his current career plan without many detours. So it's impossible to say what regional school reputation will have on his career anyway. Or the totally accidental connection he may make with someone doing the hiring down the road.</p>

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<p>Thanks StickerShock, but ("scratches head") he's probably not going to get into any of those schools - maybe Villanova, lehigh or BC on a really good day.</p>

<p>How do things look a little lower down on the list??</p>

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<p>Syracuse for uni. How about Bentley or Babson?</p>

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<p>Mine has looked for programs where, specifically, she can meet her business requirements studying abroad, and in another language (namely, Arabic), and where she can get internships using her language skills as well as her business ones. </p>

<p>For the most part, that has meant throwing out the list. </p>

<p>"Any experience with language summer programs or immersion substituting for extra years of language? He has only taken the minimum his school requires and is adamant about not taking anymore."</p>

<p>Mine had a scholarship paid for by the State Department studying intensive Arabic in Cairo through AFS. Finished the equivalent of a year in modern standard and Egyptian colloquial Arabic (and has put it to very good use since she has gotten back.)</p>

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<p>Not really answering your question but as a bschool professor myself (formerly at Northwestern, Columbia, stint at Yale), I'd push my kid away from considering a ug business degree. Most of my peers would feel the same way I think. Instead, get a really well rounded broader degree (lib arts electives do not cut it!), work in the real world for awhile, and THEN get an MBA. If you really don't want to wait, at least get an econ degree first and skip the b degree. </p>

<p>Why? It's so much more valuable and useful to learn what you need to know after work experience! Many profs don't even like teaching ugs for this very reason. Often it's almost silly teaching kids straight out of HS (and I actually love teaching ugs for lots of reasons but I'm a minority). But I assure you, the reason I love them is not because of their ability to use/absorb, or understanding why they need to know what we are teaching them! It's just a world of difference teaching to those who have already experienced work. It's why you can't even get into a decent MBA program without multiple years of work experience. </p>

<p>My hunch is, as the OP suggested, big diffs in rankings might matter, but smaller ones are constantly changing and thus entirely meaningless. Take the top 20 schools and you'd be hard pressed to find meaningful differences. And when you do find differences, its typically not the curriculums, the profs, the material, the texts. What differs, if anything, at second or third tier schools might be the quality of your classmates (and their impact on pedagogy), school resources, school culture, and who hires from the school. Your peers and their ability to push the level of the class discussion may be evident when you start to move far far down the rankings. Let me assure you, every bschool messes around to appear different and distinct and set themselves apart, and play the rankings game, but it's mostly window dressing. what goes on in the classroom, even when it's say a new "integrative curriculum" is largely just superficial. </p>

<p>If you narrow to some schools you like, look at their career center, and placement stats yourself. What industries do you want to go into and which employers interview on campus? McKinsey goes to some schools, not others, for example. Find out what the students like and don't like. Find out classroom size for core and elective classes. How the school responds to student complaints. Get practical and use your own common sense. Look for facts when you can (but recognize bshcools also play around a LOT with the data they send in). Rankings are mostly just a media hype that feeds on itself. It's a business just like any other (both for media organizations and also business schools). </p>

<p>My two cents worth.</p>

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<p>ExploringMom - as a business prof, do you see any value in business courses as a minor? If so which ones. It is not uncommon around here for kids going to the local commuter uni to minor in accounting and do a little simple bookkeeping or tax prep on the side, as it were. </p>

<p>We're pushing the liberal arts majors at our house, anyway.</p>

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<p>Yes, maybe. It depends on you and your plans. As you note, a minor in accting has some practical value. A b minor also might add some credibility in the job market for some majors, or when you need a business loan (though b courses tend not to be as useful for the entrepeneurs as most hope they will be). I think courses in macro econ and finance are highly valuable for your own investment purposes or when it comes to understanding policy (very important if you want to be a literate and responsible voter). Courses in organizational behavior may be useful if you are going to be working in teams or managing people. A minor might also be useful to see if you have an aptitude and interest enough in business courses to later pursue an MBA. </p>

<p>And of course, consider opportunity costs. You can only take so many courses or so many majors or minors. Thus, if you take b school courses (or any other minor for that matter), what else are you giving up and how valuable are those other options? Its different for every student.</p>

<p>An interesting side note: I have the luxury of teaching undergrad business courses to both business majors, and to undergraduate students in various other majors (who have to take some select business courses for their degree requirements). The top performers are always the non-business majors (even though our b school is the most selective undergraduate major on campus).</p>

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<p>Value of undergrad business--I think the numbers are very good and mauch higher than the typical liberal arts grad. This is mostly Fall grads of a good but not top tier (yet) Big 10 B school.</p>

<p>2007-2008 Academic Year (December 2007, May/August 2008), collected as of 12/1/2007. This data reflects offers which were accepted by students.</p>

<p>Total for All Majors: 37 Acceptances Reported
Salary Range: $40,000.00 - $100,000.00
Average Base: $54,167.57
Median Base: $54,000.00
Average Bonus: $5,211.54 (70.27% Reported)
Average Relocation: $3,111.32 (0.00% Reported)
Average Other Guaranteed Comp: $7,202.86 (18.92% Reported)</p>

<p>By Major:</p>

<p>Accounting 3 Acceptances Reported
Base Salary Range: $54,000.00 - $55,000.00
Average Base: $54,333.33
Average Bonus: $5,333.33 (100.00% Reported)
Average Relocation: $4,266.67 (0.00% Reported)
Average Other Guaranteed Comp: $20,000.00 (33.33% Reported)</p>

<p>Actuarial Science 4 Acceptances Reported
Base Salary Range: $54,000.00 - $66,000.00
Average Base: $57,875.00
Average Bonus: $4,125.00 (100.00% Reported)
Average Relocation: $2,812.50 (0.00% Reported)
Average Other Guaranteed Comp: (0.00% Reported)</p>

<p>Finance, Investment & Banking 14 Acceptances Reported
Base Salary Range: $40,000.00 - $70,000.00
Average Base: $55,428.57
Average Bonus: $6,772.73 (78.57% Reported)
Average Relocation: $5,270.88 (0.00% Reported)
Average Other Guaranteed Comp: $14,000.00 (21.43% Reported)</p>

<p>Information Systems 1 Acceptance Reported
(Insufficient Data to Report Salary)</p>

<p>International Business 2 Acceptances Reported
(Insufficient Data to Report Salary)</p>

<p>Management & Human Resources 6 Acceptances Reported
Base Salary Range: $40,000.00 - $58,000.00
Average Base: $47,666.67
Average Bonus: $3,500.00 (66.67% Reported)
Average Relocation: $1,875.00 (0.00% Reported)
Average Other Guaranteed Comp: $500.00 (16.67% Reported)</p>

<p>Marketing 9 Acceptances Reported
Base Salary Range: $42,000.00 - $100,000.00
Average Base: $54,888.89
Average Bonus: $3,285.71 (77.78% Reported)
Average Relocation: $2,275.00 (0.00% Reported)
Average Other Guaranteed Comp: $1,166.67 (33.33% Reported)</p>

<p>Operations & Technology Management 1 Acceptance Reported
(Insufficient Data to Report Salary)</p>

<p>Real Estate & Urban Land Economics 9 Acceptances Reported
Base Salary Range: $45,000.00 - $70,000.00
Average Base: $55,022.22
Average Bonus: $6,125.00 (44.44% Reported)
Average Relocation: $2,416.67 (0.00% Reported)
Average Other Guaranteed Comp: $12,460.00 (22.22% Reported)</p>

<p>Risk Management & Insurance 6 Acceptances Reported
Base Salary Range: $45,000.00 - $66,000.00
Average Base: $52,166.67
Average Bonus: $5,625.00 (66.67% Reported)
Average Relocation: $890.00 (0.00% Reported)
Average Other Guaranteed Comp: (0.00% Reported)</p>

<p>Supply Chain Management 2 Acceptances Reported
(Insufficient Data to Report Salary)</p>

<p>For the last year class</p>

<p><a href="http://www.bus.wisc.edu/career/common/yir/UGYIR06-07.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bus.wisc.edu/career/common/yir/UGYIR06-07.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Barrons post illustrates an important point. With respect to business schools, there is one, and only one stat that matters--average starting salary of graduates. The rest of the rankings process is all nonsense.</p>