<p>I have requested that they remove my thread so please everyone just don't respond further.</p>
<p>At least she didn't use "S" for son.</p>
<p>Hey man stop acting like such a whacko - honestly, are you like this in real life? Just give it a rest. I think this summarizes it perfectly: "For some reason you really seem to have a chip on your shoulder."</p>
<p>It's completely ridiculous to take a mom asking about her son's career path (were your parents never interested in your future, or something?) and inferring that the son has no independent problem solving skills. ABSOLUTELY. RIDICULOUS. Think about it (as in: use your brain)!</p>
<p>I could start ranting about how people with poor deductive skills (i.e. YOU) are really unsuccessful in grad school. Or how about, people who jump to radical conclusions from meaningless pieces of data make really poor graduate students (in case you didn't catch that one - i.e. YOU). But what's the point? It's a mom trying to figure out what her son's getting into. I hate to say it, but it sounds like you have some parent issues yourself.</p>
<p>I know this strikes a cord with some people, but do you know how many people continue on through graduate school just because it's the easy thing to do? We have to up our admissions standards and bias in favor of students with work experience for that exact reason. Many perfectly qualified students are disenfranchised simply because people are sheltered, fear change, and have no self-direction.</p>
<p>A student who needs his mother to log onto a website to answer his questions about graduate schools certainly falls into that category. It goes right along with the parents that email me about their student's performance in my class. </p>
<p>That may not be the "PC" image, but it's a serious problem in graduate school, and in colleges in general. A large percentage of the student population are no longer self-sufficient, have no sense of responsibility, and have no direction.</p>
<p>Ten years ago, this wasn't a problem, but I guess the culture in this country has changed.</p>
<p>
[quote]
A student who needs his mother to log onto a website to answer his questions about graduate schools certainly falls into that category. It goes right along with the parents that email me about their student's performance in my class.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That is very extreme at the graduate level. It's even uncalled for at the undergraduate level.</p>
<p>
[quote]
At least she didn't use "S" for son.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It took me a while to figure out what "DH" meant from some other posts. lol</p>
<p>Did you consider that she might be asking for her OWN information--not her son's? It is not unreasonable to want to research areas you do not know much about when they are important to people you care about. Maybe the OP felt that knowing more would make it easier to discuss things with her son. Or to understand what he was talking about when he discussed his plans with her. I think I would want to research any topic my kids showed even the slightest interest in pursuing. And I'd like to have them think I'm pretty knowledgable, rather than have them think I'm clueless. I don't blame the OP for feeling that this site is not a friendly and helpful site, but, really, very few posters are to blame for her getting that impression. Sadly, a few is all it takes.</p>
<p>G.P....for someone who sounds as intelligent and well-spoken as you, there are some important things you're missing out on.</p>
<p>Do you know how much education costs nowadays relative to earning power? When I started undergrad in 2003, my state school cost me $6300 for the year. That's in-state. By the time I graduated in 2007, it cost $8400. So take the mean and multiply by 4--that's $30,000. Do you see what I'm getting at?</p>
<p>Even working part time, students have to take out loans. My parents didn't have money saved for me to go to college--I lucked out and got some scholarships that helped me. Even so, we're not including the costs of housing, books, and food. I made it by on about $600 per month between rent, utilities, and food. Times twelve...we're talking about $7000. Do you know very many people who can live on $700 per month? That's pretty much no frills living.</p>
<p>So, $30,000 for school (not counting books), plus about $30,000 for housing...that's $60,000 over four years. This is assuming you finish on time...which most people don't. Even if you work part time...say 20 hours a week...you get paid what, like maybe $9/hour? That's only in the range of $600/month. That won't even really cover living costs.</p>
<p>So does that make everyone who takes money from their parents for college coddled? No. Does that mean some people are coddled? Sure. Kids driving BMWs while I rode my bike ****ed me off, because I knew they didn't appreciate what they had as much. I knew how much credit hours cost. And I'm not a saint or a poor kid...just someone who didn't have money to go to school saved up.</p>
<p>Our university system is becoming exorbitantly expensive, even for middle-class kids. Everyone says it's an investment--which I agree with to an extent--but what does an undergrad degree qualify you for nowadays? It's almost de facto to have a degree in something. </p>
<p>What I'm saying here is this: it's not always a kid's fault. There are lots of factors here. Don't be so high and mighty.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Do you know how much education costs nowadays relative to earning power? When I started undergrad in 2003, my state school cost me $6300 for the year. That's in-state. By the time I graduated in 2007, it cost $8400. So take the mean and multiply by 4--that's $30,000. Do you see what I'm getting at?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think you're missing the point. This is OK: "Mom, I want to be a surgeon, but to do that, I need to attend a good undergraduate school that I cannot afford. Can you help?" It shows a person who knows what they want and sees assistance in getting there.</p>
<p>The problem children (and they are just children) are the ones who don't know what they want to do, so their parents research schools, pretty much fill out an application, then pay to send the kid to the local university. The kid can't handle responsibility, so the parents put all the bills in their names, send cash, hand the kid a credit card, get the kid a meal plan, help schedule the kid's classes, put the kid in campus housing, etc. Then the kid can't figure out what he wants to do with his career, so instead of finding a job, he either moves back in with his parents or stays in his dorm with his friends and goes to graduate school. Then after graduate school, he still doesn't want to find a job, so he goes for a PhD (all the while being financed by parents). Then the kid fails at the doctorate level (because of a lack of motivation or self-thought), so the kid's parents threaten to sue the school (after all, in today's culture everyone is a winner).</p>
<p>I've seen that path occur over and over. Heck, all you have to do is look around at all the "my D ...." or "My S..." on here to get an idea of the extent of the problem. Why aren't kids researching colleges and making decisions on their own? I understand that parents want to be helpful, but there's a line between being helpful and being a decision maker.</p>
<p>mom2ofOH, it would have been better if you asked your son. If he's passionate about being a professor, he would have known some pros and cons of being a professor. At least I researched everything to death before applying to graduate schools (even though my parents didn't take as active interest in my field as you did). The info you're asking is very different depending on the area of interest anyways.</p>
<p>I kind of agree with GP though. Unless your son is a 15-year-old child prodigy who still needs his parents' active help, he should know what he wants to do with his life without his parents worrying about him... What might be more helpful is to look for scholarship opportunities or schools that provide some sort of funding for a master's. (I would have appreciated that if my parents did that for me - they didn't. they left everything to my decision)</p>
<p>Wow, G.P., you're so critical.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I know this strikes a cord with some people, but do you know how many people continue on through graduate school just because it's the easy thing to do? We have to up our admissions standards and bias in favor of students with work experience for that exact reason. Many perfectly qualified students are disenfranchised simply because people are sheltered, fear change, and have no self-direction.</p>
<p>A student who needs his mother to log onto a website to answer his questions about graduate schools certainly falls into that category. It goes right along with the parents that email me about their student's performance in my class. </p>
<p>That may not be the "PC" image, but it's a serious problem in graduate school, and in colleges in general. A large percentage of the student population are no longer self-sufficient, have no sense of responsibility, and have no direction.</p>
<p>Ten years ago, this wasn't a problem, but I guess the culture in this country has changed.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't know where you're really getting the data and information from. People who seriously do have a sense of responsiblity and direction are much more likely to demonstrate those in their applications and be accepted in graduate schools. Professors are savvy enough to know who's being coddled and who isn't. All because of the LORs. The LORs by undergraduate profs reveal the truth about the applicant- the student cannot demonstrate independent thinking and writing skills while putting together a senior thesis, that student is pretty much doomed to get a neutral letter from the professor. And then the grad schools will say "no." Also, I would bet that administrative assistants would make a note of if a parent called in about a child's application on the child's file. They know who's going to grad school in order to avoid Real Life, judging by the resume/CV that the applicant sends in. No job or internship experiences? Applicant might get some concerned looks.</p>
<p>To the OP- Yes, there are people out here who do want to be professors. They do it because they LOVE their research and not for money. They're willing to sell their souls for a long haul.</p>
<p>Your S should definitely get his MA in art history before applying for PhD and get some experience working a museum to get the feel for the field outside of the academia. While he is in PhD training, he'll be doing some TA-ing and he can decide then if he really wants to become a professor or go into the industry.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The LORs by undergraduate profs reveal the truth about the applicant- the student cannot demonstrate independent thinking and writing skills while putting together a senior thesis, that student is pretty much doomed to get a neutral letter from the professor. And then the grad schools will say "no." Also, I would bet that administrative assistants would make a note of if a parent called in about a child's application on the child's file. They know who's going to grad school in order to avoid Real Life, judging by the resume/CV that the applicant sends in. No job or internship experiences? Applicant might get some concerned looks.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You'd be surprised at how many reference letters basically say nothing. Most schools don't have a thesis, so faculty are judging their opinions based on how some student did in a class and a student's three or four visits during office hours. It's rare that you get a student with in depth exposure to a faculty member. </p>
<p>Admin assistants also don't have a lot of time to track who calls them. Especially since the admins that's most likely getting a call is in graduate admissions and not in the specific department.</p>
<p>Also, lack of internship experience shouldn't disqualify someone. If a person knows at age 18 that he or she wants to go into academia, focusing on research / classes is a good thing. The problem is that with the recent rash of coddled children (in the last 5 years or so), it's hard to separate students interested in research from students afraid of change. So you bias against anyone without work experience, which isn't fair to the people who decided at age 18 that they wanted to be researchers.</p>
<p>@G.P., You seem to be super bitter that somebody didn't pay your bills for you. Based simply on the fact that someone's mother decided to post a question on a thread, you chart out that person's entire life out for him. You really sound like one miserable person. </p>
<p>Or is it just that your parents are too dumb to get involved or even comprehend your career goals?</p>
<p>It's not about me. I didn't pay for my college.</p>
<p>The problem is more about an epidemic in universities, today. And this site just demonstrates how bad it really is.</p>
<p>This is an interesting thread. I think G.P. was well-intentioned, but really said what he wanted to say in a more attacking way than was necessary...</p>
<p>It's very clear to me that a mom can look out to see what her son is getting into EVEN IF the son is super independent already. Her healthy feedback wouldn't be bad for the son either. You want to know what a stink my parents raised when I said I want to be a math professor? They were worried sick that I wasn't doing engineering or something guaranteed to get me a good job [especially going to a school which is very good for engineering]. I am FAR from a coddled son, and my parents have no idea how I plan my future. I alone get close to professors, smelling out the things I have to do...because neither of my parents knows how it works around here. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, they easily worry about me and look to my best interests. The OP mom on this thread seems to have been similar.</p>
<p>To GP: While I agree that what you are pointing out is indeed a problem in today's society, we just don't know if it holds true with the OP. Just because somebody's mom asks questions on a discussion board doesn't mean that that kid is coddled. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. Some mothers are just looking for information. Nothing wrong with that. I see no reason to impute anybody's intentions from a few postings on an anonymous discussion board.</p>
<p>More poignantly, let's say that you're right - that is, let's say that you're exactly correct in that the guy in question really is being coddled and smothered by his question-laden mother. Do you think the snappy tone of your replies is really going to change anything? Let's be honest. We all know what's going to happen: she's just going to ask her very same questions on some other board. So, was the purpose of running her off just to score a debating point? </p>
<p>To the OP (if she's still here): I'll advise to you what I've advised to others - if you don't like the posts from a particular source, then just don't read them. Feel free to skip right over. Plenty of good information and interaction exists on this discussion board, and there is no need to have the experience ruined by somebody with whom you disagree.</p>
<p>"You'd be surprised at how many reference letters basically say nothing. Most schools don't have a thesis, so faculty are judging their opinions based on how some student did in a class and a student's three or four visits during office hours. It's rare that you get a student with in depth exposure to a faculty member."</p>
<p>Are you seriously concerned about this type of student? The great thing about grad school is that it's self-selecting. The good students will end up in the good schools, the OK students will end up in the OK schools. And if you take a look at any of the good graduate programs, you'll see that this simply isn't a problem. Go to Harvard and the students there are talented, focused, and self-driven. Go to Berkeley, same thing. Michigan, Wisconsin, Washington, it's all the same.</p>
<p>If you are honestly one of these "focused" students and unmotivated students are giving you good competition, you must not be too bright. If somebody only had reference letters saying nothing, they wouldn't get into any of the good programs! You see? Even if the letters say the kid is brilliant, it isn't convincing unless it's written with real, concrete examples.</p>
<p>"The problem is that with the recent rash of coddled children (in the last 5 years or so), it's hard to separate students interested in research from students afraid of change. So you bias against anyone without work experience, which isn't fair to the people who decided at age 18 that they wanted to be researchers."</p>
<p>In fact, it's easy to separate them because they self-select into different caliber programs! It couldn't be easier! You obviously have a chip on your shoulder for some reason. Maybe you didn't get interviews at the programs you wanted? Well chances are, it's not because of the students who have their parents doing these things - it's because the students who got in are actually better than you.</p>
<p>GP- I am a mom (hence the user name) and not at all ashamed to have spent time researching options on this board.</p>
<p>I can understand your disdain for the students you are talking about, they are likely the oes my DDs have met in school who have Daddy's credit card and no budget and they are babied. Or my DDs friends who are out of undergrad, but living in apartments funded in a big city by their parents.</p>
<p>I have 3 kids in various universities and they would not be where they are now had I not researched options whilst they were in HS, CC provided me better info tailored to our family (including finaid) than their GC could do.</p>
<p>It only made sense to utilise this resource for grad school information. There are well-informed people with good knowledge and experience here, why not ask the questions.</p>
<p>If you are a student doing all the amazing things you must do to both succeed academically, participate in interesting ECs (not PhD, but Med school), be involved on your campus, etc. the time to research obscure questions can be hard to come by.</p>
<p>As a mom, I used to spend a great deal of time driving kids around and attending sporting events, why not use that now free time to complete research whilst mt kids actual spend their time studying and volunteering, etc.</p>
<p>I have a DD preparing for med school at a flagship public which only gives cookie cutter advice, if she went by her school's advisers, she would be doing the "wrong" things, but she is doing what is right for her and if she does not get into med school she will not regret her path. We learned that here.</p>
<p>My kids will often ask me if I can research something for them. I am essentially an executive assistant, performing functions that are not difficult, but can be time consuming. Why not? I enjoy learning about it, they are busy, but they can think on their own ;)</p>
<p>Another example, DD wants to do internships, I found a link to a wonderful resource to read about thousands of them, and the link goes right to the proper area, so we are not faced with searching school by school. She will complete the apps and write everything, but if I can save her time, why not?</p>
<p>In fairness to you, I do not think you are referring to my kids who rent their apartments without me cosigning, who pay their own utilities and cell phones and car insurance and other expenses. Yes, they receive a planned contribution amount from me, but they need to decide what to do with it and learn how to budget. </p>
<p>I understand your comments were addressed to a category of coddled kids, but you painted with a broad brush.</p>
<p>mitmitten -- "Maybe you didn't get interviews at the programs you wanted? Well chances are, it's not because of the students who have their parents doing these things - it's because the students who got in are actually better than you."</p>
<p>This is probably going to the other extreme of attacking GP too far; I am pretty impressed with how grad students are selected [my experience is only with the math program at my school], and for the most part they're a sharp lot. And certainly the students sitting in a great grad school are generally very good. Nevertheless, I think like any application process, this admissions process favors people who have more time to develop their profiles. Now, I am hardly complaining because I'm one of those who got an early start, but I can see some around me who're very smart, but just won't have the time to develop insane applications. This is one mere "unfair" factor -- ultimately, the smart students will get their acts together, and produce great work in grad school [which is what will get them further positions anyway]. I'd not dismiss GP so quickly. Though, GP's posts did come off as more attacking and sweeping than necessary.</p>
<p>My comment, though, is that those who get into the top programs VERY LIKELY have not been coddled, and aggressively talk to top faculty and gain their good graces. So I'd not worry about someone being accepted to Harvard grad school and really not knowing what the heck they're doing + being shy kids unable to survive in a harsh academic world. I'm pretty sure you can't get a top faculty recommendation unless you're aggressive -- take David Eisenbud at Berkeley. Incredibly famous mathematician. Some guy in his class getting good grades asked for his recommendation -- he said "Well, I've known you only so long. If you get the top score on my next exam, I'll write one." The same guy recommended someone who got into every top program he wanted to get into [including Princeton math grad school] the previous year. I.e. his words carry enormous weight, but no shy, coddled kid is going to benefit from them! I think this is mitmitten's point, and it's well taken, though I ask, now, could people comment a bit on the prospects of being a professor? My current ideal career is being a math professor, and I'd be interested to hear about the prospects.</p>
<p>Hey, can't tell you too much about being a math professor. They keep saying that a lot of the math faculty are going to retire soon, so you have that going for you. But unfortunately, not much else. As I've heard, getting a tenure track math position is very hard. If you're going to a top notch grad school, just look at the placements of students in the same program. If you're not, well the bright side is that certain sections of industry hire math phds (not that you'd want to do that kind of work). Also I've heard from many people (professors, post-docs and grad students included) that math research isn't nearly as exciting as advanced math courses. In other words, just because you love proving that T is a tensor product of A and B doesn't necessarily mean you're a good fit for grad school. Just something to think about. But, if you've made it this far (i.e. the graduate school boards) I say you give it a shot (assuming you can get into a decent program) and see what you can do. What else are you going to do? Work as an actuary? (Assuming you've only studied math and are reasonably bright -i.e. hopefully at or near the top of your class) Actually a good idea is to work for Google, but don't tell anybody I told you.</p>