<p>I am doing everything I can [though I always feel I could do more] to get into a top graduate school, and at least one nice thing is I was aware even since last year [first year of college] what it takes, having seen some examples, and analyzed them. My conclusion is that of course one has to learn tons of stuff, </p>
<p>I heard from math professors [or, perhaps even better, postdocs] that research they're doing tends to amount to spending lots of time figuring out what questions to ask [that skill is hard], and asking reasonable questions that one could answer in, say a year or so. I am not sure exactly what it'll be like, and of course advanced math courses are great because you get to drink from a hose of amazing theories people have refined and packed for you. [For instance, reading Hartshorne's alg. geometry book, sort of the canonical reference -- nice to have it packaged like that.] </p>
<p>I'll be really surprised if I come anywhere close to preferring an industry job, unless the so-called "reality of academia" ends up being awful.</p>
<p>Anyway, I've been blessed with some extra time + go to a school with an already top graduate program, so I have quite a few resources to take advantage of, and am trying to do so as much as possible. I think I'm going to try to develop an idea of my niche in the math world early, as I've been trying to do, so I can really use graduate school time wisely.</p>
<p>Anyone else have comments on this? Just in general about becoming a professor? I'm all "ears" =]</p>
<p>"My conclusion is that of course one has to learn tons of stuff, " -- bleh, to complete that, I guess learn stuff, hopefully find an area of specialty and go deep, and try to gain notice of faculty who're famous in the area of specialty.</p>
<p>"In other words, just because you love proving that T is a tensor product of A and B doesn't necessarily mean you're a good fit for grad school."</p>
<p>I've yet to find a person that loves tensor products. If you love tensor products, there's probably a place for you in grad school.</p>
<p>I've been trying to steer clear of this, but all the hostility has really gotten out of hand. I'm not bitter because of any issue with admissions. I already have my doctorate.</p>
<p>The problem is more so an issue with students: there are an overwhelming number of students, at top universities, that do not have the social or mental skills to survive in the world. They go to college because it's "what you're supposed to do after high school". They go to grad school because it's easier than not going to grad school. They rely on other people to do things for them, give them things, show them how things work, etc. </p>
<p>The symptoms are all over colleges. Not too long ago, Georgia Tech caught 187 students cheating in the same class (intro to CS). Cheating is up in graduate programs across the board (including HYPSM - for those of you hooked on acronyms). The fail out rate for comprehensives is up in graduate programs. Graduate admissions departments are biasing against qualified candidates with no work experience and against students pursuing an MS/PhD in the same school as a BS. </p>
<p>People can rationalize it all they want: "I'm just trying to help", "It's only a little money", "I'm being a caring parent", etc., but the fundamental problem is that parents coddle their children. It starts at a very young age. Everyone can "be whatever you want to be", "everyone's a winner!", etc. </p>
<p>And people wonder why there are "quarter life crises" and kids these days need 4 years to transition from mom and dad's house to the real world (and sometime apparently much more).</p>
<p>I'm sorry - but if you're a parent and "doing research" for your "DS" or "DD" on potential careers, colleges, and majors and then acting in an advisory role because "you know better", you're part of the problem.</p>
<p>"I'm sorry - but if you're a parent and "doing research" for your "DS" or "DD" on potential careers, colleges, and majors and then acting in an advisory role because "you know better", you're part of the problem."</p>
<p>Nobody here likes spoonfeeding! But we're just saying the OP may have asked an honest question. Not a crime. I get your pint, and let's not squabble =]</p>
<p>"I've yet to find a person that loves tensor products."</p>
<p>=] =] Well while the construction of the tensor product is not super fun to me, it'sd insane how the idea of changing base fields, etc, can yield one-line proofs at times!</p>
<p>I'm surprised at the criticism leveled at GP: He's telling it like it is and frankness is in short supply on these boards. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be 500 threads on why Dartmouth is superior to Brown or which MBA school to go to after getting an engineering degree to get the best consulting job.</p>
<p>I know way too many people that go to grad school because working in the real world is a scary thought to them. Most of the grad students I've met here at Tech are pretty solid and either have a couple years of work or research experience, but at my alma mater there were quite a few who just sort of stuck around after graduation and kept taking classes toward an MS/PhD. I asked one why they didn't want to go elsewhere for grad school and they proclaimed they "wouldn't have any friends there". Ridiculous. The same person expressed quite an interest in getting a PhD also.</p>
<p>I think parents just need to butt out of the college process. I think how stupidly popular the parents' forum is on this site (it is actually twice as large as any other area save for the forums that deal with the several hundred individual colleges) is a testament to how involved parents try to be in what should be a personal decision of a young adult.</p>
<p>I think it's great when parents want to be involved in their children's future, but the vast majority of applicants are able to handle researching programs, internships and application advice alongside the million and a half other things they're doing on their own, and that's how it should be at this stage in our lives. </p>
<p>
[quote]
If you are a student doing all the amazing things you must do to both succeed academically, participate in interesting ECs (not PhD, but Med school), be involved on your campus, etc. the time to research obscure questions can be hard to come by.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The problem is that they're not "obscure questions" - they're questions essential to the entire grad school process, the answers to which may very well determine the rest of the applicants' lives. Should I look at rankings or research interests? Is the atmosphere at this school conducive to my future goals? How's the alumni network? What do the departmental politics of the place look like? What do other applicants/students think? What kind of classes could I take here? What is this school known for regionally/nationally/globally? These are all questions that come up during the process, and the answers should be determined by each applicant individually. It does take a lot of time and dedication to find the answers you're looking for and make sense of them, but that's an essential life skill. You only really get one shot at getting an advanced degree in a particular discipline, so you'd better make it count. </p>
<p>I was very surprised to see several people show up to my grad school's accepted student day with their parents - this was supposed to be their first day networking with people they'd spend the next two years with, and instead of meeting new people, they were chilling with their parents.</p>
<p>kigali, that is VERY disturbing. Graduate students are adults (aren't most over the age of 20??) and should be able to handle their own orientations. Parents can explore the city, not hang around campus. My mom, for instance, does not choose my classes or help me write out my cover letters and applications. If I tell her I want to apply somewhere, she expects ME to handle it. I even wrote out my own essays when I applied to Northwestern back in high school! </p>
<p>Parents, once your child turns 18 (okay more like 21 in most cases), you transition yourself into a counselor role to your child. You can provide advice and that's it. No more helicopter syndrome. Your child is grown and should be able to handle situations on their own. If they hit rough patches, they will eventually overcome and learn from it. That is life.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I think the "how to be a good parent" speech from those without kids to those with kids tends to not go so well. </p>
<p>
[quote]
I even wrote out my own essays when I applied to Northwestern back in high school!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm a little confused there. "I even wrote out..." makes it sound like you think it's at least somewhat acceptable to not write out your own essays.</p>
<p>That's an expulsion worthy action in my book (well, if it is provable, which would be hard to do).</p>
<p>G.P.Burdell, there are some parents who literally fill out and write their children's college essays. The bottom line is that colleges and universities are very aware of the helicopter parent syndrome.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Are You a Helicopter Parent?
If you answer yes to one or more of the following questions, then you may be a hovering parent.</p>
<pre><code>* Do you call your child every day?
* Are you in constant contact with administrators at your child's school?
* Have you ever researched or written a college paper for your child?
* Do you frequently intervene if your student has had problems with his roommate?
* Do you act as your child's secretary? (i.e. make doctor appointments for him, give him morning wake-up calls, etc.)
* Have you ever tried to settle grading disputes for your child more than once?
* Have you ever chosen classes for your student to take?
* Do you feel bad about yourself if your child makes a mistake?
<ul>
<li><p>A parent writing an essay (either admissions or for a class) is clearly academic misconduct (i.e. cheating). </p></li>
<li><p>Parents shouldn't be able to discuss their child's grade with a professor. By FERPA, grades can only be discussed with the student. You can't even tell the parent if the student is in your class (with the exception being a student under 18 years old).</p></li>
</ul>
<p>Parents should NOT be writing anything for a kid- short answers on apps, essays for anything, I am not even sure a kid should ask for a proofread when in university. I do know one of my DDs would email her essays to her sister who is a far better writer, for proof-reading and input, but she did not email them to me. University students need to find people of their own generation for advice on their writing, parents don't know what the prof asked for and don't know the current writing styles (we all still type two spaces after a period so who knows what else we do that is antiquated)</p>
<p>I cannot think of any situation when a parent should be in contact with the professors except maybe if your kid is in the hospital/had surgery and you are letting them know what is going on???</p>
<p>I am in favor of locking/closing this thread. One newish poster took it wildly off topic, not only ignoring the OP's questions, but deciding to make the thread a general harangue about a seemingly pet peeve subject. And in the process make it personal and rude.</p>
<p>While there are subjects that might be discussed among friendly posters, CC does not have a culture of derailing and running off people who have questions. So, I won't participate in the off topic parts of this, as much as I would like to do so, since I have opinions and knowledge too.</p>
<p>Students post in Parent's forum. Parent's post in student's forums. There is a valuable exchange of information here. The parents and students who have learned from the undergrad experience here have stuck around to pass on some wisdom and experience to the next wave. The grad school area is new, but there is no reason it can't be as helpful.</p>
<p>The reason people get so personal about this is because almost everyone would like to be a professor because of the nature of the work and the prestige implied. But it is a very very difficult job to get, so don't get your hopes up. Is you son going to Harvard or Yale? Do you ahve celebrity in your family or can you provide a substantial financial donation to a university?</p>
<p>I am being serious with those questions. Art History is one of the most overcrowded fields in academia along with English. If he can handle the PhD and get to the point of actually being interviewed for a job, then call us. Until then, don't get your hopes up... I'm sorry to be so frank but it's true.</p>
<p>"I'm surprised at the criticism leveled at GP: He's telling it like it is and frankness is in short supply on these boards. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be 500 threads on why Dartmouth is superior to Brown or which MBA school to go to after getting an engineering degree to get the best consulting job.</p>
<p>I know way too many people that go to grad school because working in the real world is a scary thought to them."</p>
<p>This is true, I mean obviously true. I don't think people here are denying that there are too many over-sheltered grad students who can't fend academically for themselves, and went there to avoid harsh realities. Nevertheless, the point is that these people have very little chance, at least in the disciplines I'm familiar with, to get into TOP schools anyway. And, a mom asking about the college process really doesn't mean a ton. </p>
<p>I talk to my parents <em>voluntarily</em> about my career often, and I'd prefer it a ton if they could actually speak to me intelligently on the subject. As it is, neither of them majored in math or know very well what exactly it takes to become a professor, but they're intelligent people and try to be on the lookout. Same way as friends can be on a lookout. I.e., they can be on the lookout for you as well-wishers, not necessarily as coddling, overbearing helicopters. </p>
<p>I agree with BrownParent that it'd be nice to discuss what really is the situation with professorships. I've gotten one response from mitmitten, and most other posts really haven't dealt with this topic. Is there really nothing more intelligent to say than that it's a rough world out there in academia, and you better be ready for it and go to a good graduate school? Hopefully we can steer things in the right direction, instead of just giving up hope on the thread, whose original topic I am very interested in [as are, I imagine, plenty of students and parents of students [yikes forgive me GP! ;)] who aspire to do academic jobs.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The problem is more so an issue with students: there are an overwhelming number of students, at top universities, that do not have the social or mental skills to survive in the world. They go to college because it's "what you're supposed to do after high school". They go to grad school because it's easier than not going to grad school. They rely on other people to do things for them, give them things, show them how things work, etc.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm sorry - but if you're a parent and "doing research" for your "DS" or "DD" on potential careers, colleges, and majors and then acting in an advisory role because "you know better", you're part of the problem.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm sorry, but I think the real problem is that colleges continue to admit these kinds of students, for as long as colleges do that, then students (and their parents), frankly, have no incentive to change their behavior. Specifically, if too many grad students are immature and have had their parents inappropriately map their academic careers out for them, then the real answer is for the grad programs to stop admitting those students. Those schools who continue to do that are part of the problem.</p>
<p>As a follow-up to sakky's comments, which I agree with, colleges (at the lower end of 'rankings') admit 'these kinds of students' because they need to admit a certain amount of graduates students regardless of quality.</p>
<p>How else do you explain the over-abundance of doctorate holders as compared to the number of professorial and research positions available. There are just too many people graduating with a Ph.D. than society have a need for. These over-qualified academics often have to settle for a job that does not justify the years they have spent pursuing a doctorate, and the job often does not need those qualifications.</p>
<p>I suspect the explosion of graduate degrees in universities is a result of market forces that views a higher diploma as a commodity to be obtained. Much like a nice vase that looks good in your house. Reflectively, the same can be said about the undergraduate degree as well. In South Korea, more than 80% of a cohort gets to go to college. How can this be? Does the economy of Korea really need that many professionals? I've asked this of various Korean colleagues, and they all say this has to do with the huge social pressure parents put on the students and government to provide tertiary education for EVERYONE. They view it as a right.</p>
<p>So, I think GP is only touching the tip of a bigger social problem, in a nutshell, the commercialization of education, separated from its original role, which is to act as a vehicle for social mobility, but only on the basis of true meritocracy.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I am in favor of locking/closing this thread. One newish poster took it wildly off topic, not only ignoring the OP's questions, but deciding to make the thread a general harangue about a seemingly pet peeve subject. And in the process make it personal and rude.</p>
<p>While there are subjects that might be discussed among friendly posters, CC does not have a culture of derailing and running off people who have questions. So, I won't participate in the off topic parts of this, as much as I would like to do so, since I have opinions and knowledge too.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is the second thread in which you've essentially attacked the worth of my posts using the cliche "newish". Can we avoid cross-posting and "hiding" in the parents forum?</p>
<p>People can disagree on issues. I know that coddled graduate students fail. The question is, what involvement in a student's life is "coddling". That definition seems to continuously change as a means to justify that a person isn't guilty. "My son pays his own cell phone bill, so he's not coddled", "my son wrote his own admissions essays, so he's not coddled", "I've only called a professor once on behalf of my DH, so she's not coddled", etc. </p>
<p>The fact is, if you're so involved in your child's college career that it impedes the child's development, then you are causing harm, and yes (dare I say it? It's blasphemy these days), you're being a bad parent. Researching schools and telling your child where to apply falls into this category. I know that many parents feel that THEY need to be involved, and that THEY know best, but at the end of the day, that's a selfish position that stunts the child's development.</p>
<p>No matter how brilliant your child is, success in graduate school and eventually making it to a tenure-track position depends heavily on interpersonal skills. Coddling your child is one sure way to guarantee that he doesn't make it.</p>
<p>Sometimes I think most parents are like my wife.</p>
<p>Was it in "Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus", where they say Men complain about a problem in search of a solution, while ladies complain about a problem in search for justification of their feelings.</p>
<p>I think parents are like the ladies. When you become a parent, you often need to get people to understand and justify the emotional need of what you do for your child. Sometimes they know the problem (and the solution), but still need others to say "Ahhh....yes, I know why you do it and how you feel".</p>