"Anywhere else it would have been an A." Comments please?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Swarthmore College
1

<p>Can someone with direct experience with Swat's grade deflation talk about its impact on grad and professional school admissions? Also about impact on job prospects? Does anyone have a rough idea of the average graduating GPA? Or what % of kids do NOT get into their grad or professional schools because of grade deflation? Is it the case that only the very top kids in each major get the sought-after grad/prof school admissions? What kind of prospects are there for the kids in the bottom 1/3 of the class, who could have also worked very hard? Do some majors have lower grades than others?</p>

<p>Swat says they don't calculate GPAs or rank--but employers and grad/prof schools can calculate GPAs and compare with other colleges' GPAs. As I am finding out, not every employer has heard of Swat, it rigor or its grading... </p>

<p>Some similarly grade-deflating colleges put their relatively low GPAs into context via a statement that is sent out with a transcript. Or, for example, UNC-CH is adding the average GPA for each course alongside each transcript grade to give the context for the grade. Does Swat offer such explanations? </p>

<p>Swat offers an impressive-sounding education, but I would want to know, before choosing it, that kids with 2.5-3.5 GPAs don't find themselves with limited prospects after 4 years of hard work and hefty payments.</p>

2

<p>2.5-3.5 is a HUGE spread. I’ll leave someone else to answer your actual question, since I’m only a first-year. FWIW, my first-semester covered grades were >3.5 and I should easily match or exceed that this semester. (I think my grades were relatively representative of a normal semester for me, although I probably would have studied more for CS quizzes rather than just the final.) Not a science major, and we don’t discuss grades so I have no idea how my science-major friends are doing in their classes.</p>

3

<p>Swarthmore does not actually have grade deflation. In my day (1973 data) the average GPA was reportedly 2.83. Now it is more like 3.5. This may well be less grade inflation other schools, however.</p>

<p>For data, see gradeinflation.com and for Swarthmore [Swarthmore</a> College](<a href=“http://www.gradeinflation.com/swarthmore.html]Swarthmore”>http://www.gradeinflation.com/swarthmore.html)</p>

<p>I have heard that many graduate schools have unofficial adjustment factors where GPAs of applicants from schools that are relatively tough graders are adjusted upwards. Swarthmore is one of the schools that are reportedly adjusted upwards. Some law schools in the past have had explicit adjustment factors. Swarthmore was at or near the top in those rankings. <a href=“http://classic-web.archive.org/web/20000829094953/http://www.pcmagic.net/abe/gradeadj.htm[/url]”>http://classic-web.archive.org/web/20000829094953/http://www.pcmagic.net/abe/gradeadj.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>A very large percentage of Swarthmore graduates go on to graduate or professional school. Many go to highly ranked graduate programs. As Keilexandra wrote, there is a huge difference between a 2.5 and a 3.5. I imagine that Swarthmore graduates with a 3.5 GPA do pretty well with graduate and professional school admission. Those with a 2.5 GPA, these days, probably not so well.</p>

4

<p>Your question isn’t a very good one. Here’s why.</p>

<p>If you’re in the sciences or hard social sciences, there will be ‘grade deflation’ almost everywhere you go. Look, Real Analysis, Physical Chemistry, Probability, etc. are just hard classes almost everywhere you go (except maybe the lower Ivies and below). If you want to get the prestigious education without facing these difficult courses, you should consider Columbia, Brown, maybe Penn, but certainly not HYPS, MIT, etc. Note that the above stem from strong generalizations of which the author is quite aware.</p>

<p>HOWEVER, if you plan to major in the humanities or softer social sciences, there’s little grade deflation at Swarthmore to speak of. </p>

<p>Although you may now want to choose the college that will produce the best ‘results’ for you after college, ultimately, as you’ll find in college and especially if you’re considering a place like Swat, you’re really looking for a strong education. If you get a strong education, study hard, make connections with your professors, and do some cool ECs, you will succeed no matter where you go (among the top universities). While Harvard et al. might have a better in at the IBanks, Swarthmore does very well in getting students into top Law, Med, and B schools. Graduate math is slightly different due to the present nature of the department, but overall students do very well. </p>

<p>Fundamentally, if you’re choosing between Swat and some other schools, you’ve likely done well in the admissions cycle, so you can’t go wrong. If Swat’s the most prestigious school to which you were granted admission, you should go, however.</p>

5

<p>S graduated from Swat in '08 & is currently in grad school. Everyone in his dept who applied to grad school that year got into grad school. Not all employers might have heard of Swat, but grad schools have & view Swat grads highly. He graduated with a 3.7 GPA so didn’t really experience grade deflation.</p>

6

<p>The range of 2.5-3.5 was arbitrarily posed in my initial question because I had no reference for average GPAs. Thanks to dadx3, now I do, so let’s reframe the question–do kids with lower GPAs have poorer prospects upon graduation? I am making an assumption that the slackers of this world would not apply in the first place, or if they did, and by some fluke, were accepted, they would not have made it to graduation (and please correct my assumption if it is wrong). So, I am assuming the vast majority work very hard at the academics, connect with profs, do ECs, and get good advisement, etc, because that is the general profile of a Swat admit and the nature of the experience there.</p>

<p>fhimas88888888, my question was not entirely a poor one because it brought out information in the responses, including yours, that I did not have. I did NOT question the strong preparation for grad programs that is possible at Swat, because I have no doubt about that aspect. I asked about real-life outcomes for ALL of the students and whether one factor had an impact. </p>

<p>Colleges do a terrific job maximizing their yield by highlighting the success stories. I am questioning whether these successful outcomes in grad/professional school placements happen for all grads who seek them (there is quite a variety of post grad plans listed on Swat’s career web page), and whether the outcomes are in any way correlated with individual GPAs. (I do realize other factors may be involved in post grad choices, such as loan repayments…so no need to point this out.) </p>

<p>This information sometimes comes most reliably from recent or current students and parents who are not invested in yield or PR for a college.</p>

7

<p>My peers (I am a Swat senior) seem to be having variable levels of success in grad school and job applications–but I think the bottom line is that everyone’s goals are different, and so their GPA impacts them in a different way. One friend who graduated several years ago had a not-so-stellar GPA (3.0 or so), but that was mostly due to non-major courses–he aced everything in his major and went on to the very specialized graduate program he was interested in without a problem. </p>

<p>For professional schools it would be a different story, but for the most part I see people aiming for med school, law school, etc. being able to organize their lives such that they can do well in more of their courses (even if that means less sleep, less extracurricular involvement, and/or fewer “overload” semesters with extra credits). </p>

<p>Another big factor (perhaps the biggest factor, I think) is how students approach networking, internships and career paths from freshman year onwards. I have a job lined up for after graduation in the field I’m interested in (not my major)–and I don’t think it’s because I have a good GPA, although ultimately who knows. Rather, I have had several summer jobs in that field, and as a senior going through the job application process, <em>experience</em> seemed to be more on employers’ minds, rather than GPA. </p>

<p>So it’s very individual–it depends on the student’s goals. But overall, if you were admitted to Swarthmore, you have the capacity to do well in Swarthmore classes. If your intent is to be well-situated for your desired career plans after Swat, both in terms of GPA and experience, you can probably make that happen. And you’ll get a really great education in the process.</p>

8

<p>The median GPA for the Class of 2010 at Swarthmore was 3.53.</p>

<p>[Swarthmore</a> College :: Health Sciences Office :: Guide for Applying to Medical School for Swarthmore Undergraduates and Alumni/ae](<a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/x8889.xml]Swarthmore”>Guide for Applying to Medical School for Swarthmore Undergraduates and Alumni/ae :: Health Sciences Office :: Swarthmore College)</p>

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9

<p>@fhimas88888888: i’m a prospective math major currently choosing between uchicago and swarthmore but probably leaning towards swarthmore; what exactly do you mean by the “present nature of the department”? more generally, even if i don’t major in math (a not entirely remote possibility) i’m already fairly committed to attending grad school (almost certainly not law, med, etc.). i’m not so much concerned about grade deflation…simply interested in some approximate success rate of grad school applicants from swat, or, for instance, some information–no matter how anecdotal or vague–about the most commonly attended graduate schools for swat math majors. just trying to get a general idea…</p>

10

<p>As for the impact on grad school placements, it’s hard to imagine that Swarthmore could possibly send more students to grad school. More than 1 out of every 5 Swarthmore graduates already gets a PhD:</p>

<p>


**Percentage of graduates getting a PhD
Academic field: ALL</p>

<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees: ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database
Number of Undergraduates: ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database      </p>

<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period.
Note: Includes all NSF doctoral degrees inc. PhD, Divinity, etc., but not M.D. or Law**.</p>

<p>1       35.8%   California Institute of Technology<br>
2   ** 24.7%   Harvey Mudd College **
3   ** 21.1%   Swarthmore College  **
4   ** 19.9%   Reed College    **
5       18.3%   Massachusetts Institute of Technology<br>
6   ** 16.8%   Carleton College    **
7   ** 15.8%   Bryn Mawr College   **
8   ** 15.7%   Oberlin College **
9       15.3%   University of Chicago<br>
10      14.5%   Yale University 
11      14.3%   Princeton University<br>
12      14.3%   Harvard University<br>
13  ** 14.1%   Grinnell College    **
14  ** 13.8%   Haverford College   **
15  ** 13.8%   Pomona College  **
16      13.1%   Rice University 
17  ** 12.7%   Williams College    **
18  ** 12.4%   Amherst College **
19      11.4%   Stanford University 
20  ** 11.3%   Kalamazoo College   **
21  ** 11.0%   Wesleyan University **
22  ** 10.6%   St John's College (both campus) **
23      10.6%   Brown University<br>
24  ** 10.4%   Wellesley College   **
25  ** 10.0%   Earlham College **
26  ** 9.6%    Beloit College  **
27  ** 9.5%    Lawrence University **
28  ** 9.3%    Macalester College  **
29      9.0%    Cornell University, All Campuses<br>
30  ** 9.0%    Bowdoin College **
31  ** 8.9%    Mount Holyoke College   **
32  ** 8.9%    Smith College   **
33  ** 8.8%    Vassar College  **
34      8.7%    Case Western Reserve University 
35      8.7%    Johns Hopkins University<br>
36  ** 8.7%    St Olaf College **
37  ** 8.7%    Hendrix College **
38  ** 8.6%    Hampshire College   **
39      8.5%    Trinity University<br>
40  ** 8.5%    Knox College    **
41      8.5%    Duke University 
42  ** 8.4%    Occidental College  **
43      8.3%    University of Rochester 
44  ** 8.3%    College of Wooster  **
45  ** 8.3%    Barnard College **
46  ** 8.2%    Bennington College  **
47      8.1%    Columbia University in the City of New York 
48  ** 8.0%    Whitman College **
49      7.9%    University of California-Berkeley<br>
50      7.9%    College of William and Mary 
51      7.8%    Carnegie Mellon University<br>
52      7.8%    New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology<br>
53      7.7%    Brandeis University 
54      7.6%    Dartmouth College<br>
55  ** 7.5%    Wabash College  **
56  ** 7.5%    Bates College   **
57  ** 7.5%    Davidson College    **
58      7.2%    Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute<br>
59  ** 7.2%    Franklin and Marshall College   **
60      7.1%    Fisk University 
61  ** 7.1%    Wheaton College (Wheaton, IL)   **
62      6.8%    University of California-San Francisco<br>
63  ** 6.8%    Allegheny College   **
64  ** 6.6%    Furman University   **
65      6.5%    University of Pennsylvania<br>
66      6.5%    Washington University<br>
67  ** 6.5%    Bard College    **
68      6.4%    Northwestern Univ<br>
69      6.4%    Rhodes College<br>
70  ** 6.3%    Agnes Scott College **
71  ** 6.3%    Spelman College **
72      6.2%    Antioch University, All Campuses<br>
73  ** 6.2%    Kenyon College  **
74      6.2%    University of Dallas<br>
75      6.1%    Ripon College<br>
76  ** 6.1%    Colorado College    **
77  ** 6.1%    Bethel College (North Newton, KS)   **
78  ** 6.0%    Hamilton College    **
79  ** 6.0%    Goshen College  **
80  ** 6.0%    Middlebury College  **
81  ** 6.0%    Erskine College **
82  ** 5.9%    University of the South **
83      5.8%    University of Michigan at Ann Arbor 
84      5.8%    Drew University 
85      5.8%    Wake Forest University<br>
86  ** 5.8%    Tougaloo College    **
87  ** 5.8%    Goucher College **
88  ** 5.7%    Chatham College **
89      5.7%    Cooper Union<br>
90      5.7%    Alfred University, Main Campus<br>
91      5.7%    Tufts University<br>
92      5.6%    University of California-Santa Cruz 
93      5.6%    Colgate University<br>
94  ** 5.5%    Colby College   **
95      5.4%    Bucknell University 
96      5.4%    Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology 
97      5.4%    Concordia Teachers College<br>
98      5.4%    University of Virginia, Main Campus 
99  ** 5.3%    Sarah Lawrence College  **
100     5.3%    Southwestern University

</p>

11

<p>Axelnofz see this link which lists plans by major, including math:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/Documents/postgrad%20plans%202010.pdf[/url]”>http://www.swarthmore.edu/Documents/postgrad%20plans%202010.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

12

<p>This PDF file will let you look up the after graduation plans of Swarthmore seniors, by major, for the last several years. Note that this only includes data from the student survey seniors fill out during graduation week and is hardly comprehensive. A lot of college graduates don’t have firm plans before graduation and grad school decisions often come after a year or two in the real world.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/Documents/postgrad%20plans%202010.pdf[/url]”>http://www.swarthmore.edu/Documents/postgrad%20plans%202010.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

13

<p>oh wow…what fantastic data. thanks a ton!</p>

14

<p>Those are beautiful numbers, Interesteddad. Just found out last night through a YouTube clip that the current President is a Theology major from U of Chicago – having studied under one of gods of 19th/2Oth religious history, Martin Marty. She is quite familiar with Liberation Theology, and taught Feminist Theology @ Emory. Wow!</p>

15

<p>lol, probably the most satisfying thing about the percentage list that interesteddad provided is seeing my ED school Columbia (deferred –> rejected) down at #47. very reassuring.</p>

16

<p>Axelnofz, take a look at this blog by a Columbia grad:</p>

<p>[Ivy</a> Leagued and Unemployed | It’s the economy, stupid.](<a href=“http://ivyleaguedandunemployed.com/]Ivy”>http://ivyleaguedandunemployed.com/)</p>

17

<p>Rebecca Chopp not only taught Theology at Emory, she was Dean of the Theology School and then Provost of Emory University. From there, she became Dean of the Divinity School at Yale and then on to be the President of Colgate. Not bad for the first person in her family to go to college. She’s also Methodist minister, but went to grad school at Chicago when she was told that, as a woman, she would never be given a church.</p>

<p>I have been very impressed with her tenure at Swarthmore, so far. Terrific role model.</p>

18

<p>interesteddad, do you know/does Swat compile outcomes for the other 4/5 who do not go on for PhDs? </p>

<p>Penn does a good job at posting reports on post grad outcomes, with job titles and companies, Masters and PhD destinations, pie charts for job sectors, professional and grad schools, etc. Most elite institutions probably compile something like this, but do not nececcessarily post it.</p>

19

<p>interesting blog. it does seem that small LACs give more generous FA than the Ivies (particularly Columbia, although i think it recently went loan free). was that your point? sorry if i misinterpreted it, i’m a bit tired…</p>

20

<p>Axelnofz, it is perhaps another reason for you to be happy that you are not headed to Columbia. I have not come across any “Swarthmore and Unemployed” blogs…</p>