<p>New here and learning so much of the application/admission process. Great site. Wish I knew of it's existence while daughter was a Junior, preparing for college applications. </p>
<p>So much focus is placed on SAT scores and/or GPA. What about AP tests scores? I can see where GPA can and often is, based on FLUFF! SAT prep for exam, in my opinion, can greatly exagerate scores. AP exams are based on national exam, after completing the AP course. </p>
<p>Also, why do so many take AP courses and not take the exam? Shouldn't it be required? One school district only has a few students take the exam....hand chosen of course, to increase the school division's statistics.</p>
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<li> I think it's generally believed that colleges will look at a student's AP scores in the admissions process, and that good AP scores are a plus and bad ones may call into question the validity of a good GPA. However, there are inherent limits to how much weight is going to be placed on AP scores. First, many applicants come from schools that don't offer AP classes at all, or offer only a limited number of them, or restrict them to 12th graders, etc. And although students can self-prepare and take an exam without taking a special "AP" course, they are not exactly going to be on equal footing with kids who have taken an entire course shaped to prepare them for that specific exam. They are also fairly expensive to take, and I don't know how much data exists to validate their correlation with college success (as between students with similar other characteristics). So, because access to AP exams is unevenly distributed, and it's not clear what they mean, colleges just aren't going to make them a major admissions factor.</li>
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<p>It is probably also relevant that some of the top prep schools and independent schools have long turned their noses up at the AP curriculum and the type of knowledge tested by the tests. At the elite college level, I suspect they don't believe that the AP tests are testing much that they really care about.</p>
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<li> Taking the courses without taking the test is controversial. There was a thread a few weeks ago that I think said College Board is considering instituting a requirement that all students take the test for a course to be allowed to use an "AP" designation.</li>
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<p>For many kids, especially those headed to state schools, there is real value in taking AP tests, because doing well on the tests will give them actual college credits they can use to reduce the cost of their Bachelor's degrees. For other kids -- if they are not going to college, or if they won't get credit for the course, or if they would choose to retake the course for educational reasons -- there are perfectly good reasons not to take the test (even if they would likely get a high score).</p>
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<li> GPA based on fluff -- Of course. But that's one of the core skills of college admissions officers: reading high school transcripts, and reading information about the school, in order to separate the fluff from the stuff. And for larger schools pooling information within the institution and tracking them over decades, so that people really know what x GPA means at y school based on a kid's specific courseload.</li>
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<p>Our school requires kids to take APs if they sign up for the course. At more than $80 a pop it can get pretty pricey. I can understand that seniors might be reluctant to take APs if they are going to be attending colleges that won't accept them, however I do think the practice of requiring the exam keeps our AP courses honest. Our courses really do cover the promised material and most kids get 4s and 5s. Personally I think it's to the kid's advantage to take the APs, for example, while I didn't use my AP credits in college, my graduate school actually gave me credit for them in a roundabout way. (Any graduate level course I took as an undergrad beyond the minimum I would have needed to graduated was given credit. So my three APs automatically gave me three courses, since I'd taken lots of graduate level courses.) It saved me thousands of dollars.</p>
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For other kids -- if they are not going to college, or if they won't get credit for the course, or if they would choose to retake the course for educational reasons -- there are perfectly good reasons not to take the test (even if they would likely get a high score).
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<p>While I agree with much of what JHS said, I differ from him on this. A high score will enable a student to place into a more advanced class. Even when the student does not receive credit toward Advanced Standing, it is still possible to parlay a score of 4 into a more advanced version of a particular science course. </p>
<p>Some schools do not offer AP courses, prefering their own (more) rigorous courses, but do encourage their students to take AP exams as a way of validating the courses and putting GPAs in context. </p>
<p>Mathmom: Interesting. I had not thought of APs that way.</p>
<p>My children attend a private school that required all students taking an AP course to take the exam. The school paid for the exam, so no additional cost to us. I would tease my friends that had children at public school when they complained that they had to spend $500-$700 on testing; I would respond that ours were included in our $12,000 tuition!!</p>
<p>Marite, my experience (both personally and through my child) is that no meaningful advanced placement is given for the AP score itself at many schools. To get advanced placement in languages, I had to go in and demonstrate what I knew; no one really cared that I had 5s on some APs. It would have been the same with math, too, although I was allowed to use my AP score to exempt myself from a math requirement (something that was probably a bad idea, educationally). My daughter had to take a bunch of placement tests. There was no such thing as advanced placement in English or History.</p>
<p>As I'm sure you are aware, in the snooty university world, kids don't get a whole lot for their time and money spent taking the AP test that they couldn't get anyway provided they actually learned the material. By the time my son graduates, he will have taken 9 AP or IB exams, and I suspect that none of them will have an automatic effect on his college placement that he couldn't have gotten without taking the tests. Half of them won't matter at all (English, histories, Government/Politics), and for the other half (math, sciences) the test doesn't tell you enough on its own to determine the appropriate placement. Latin may be the only area where it does, but five minutes with the DUS in a Classics department would get him the same placement.</p>
<p>At many schools, an AP score does count for placement purposes, e.g. language requirements at Yale. "If you received a 4 or 5 on an AP test in your language, or if you received a score of 6 or 7 on the IB Advanced-level exam in your language, proceed as though you have placed into L5. You do not need to take a placement test."
At the UC's a 4 or 5 on the English AP will place you out of freshman English. You don't necessarily get "credits" in the form of units, but it fulfulls requirements for graduation or for placement.</p>
<p>My S was able to place into a more advanced version of introductory Physics thanks to his score of 5 on the BC exam; he was also exempted from taking a placement test into Multivariable Calc on that account (yeah, it's not worth $83 to avoid taking the placement test; but he was a 9th grader, so that score allayed the instructor's fears that he might be unprepared). I've also noticed that some course descriptions carry a notice about prerequisites, including AP scores. As mamenyu noted, high scores on the AP also exempt students from having to fulfill the language requirement or even taking the placement test. AP scores generally are not useful for the social sciences and humanities, though.
I suppose that a determined student could argue his or her way into a course without the AP score to back claims of preparedness.</p>
<p>AP tests, from what we found out, can do a couple of things. Some students receive credit for college courses based on their AP score (DS got 8 credits of REQUIRED English literature credit at his university waived because he met the AP score criteria of his college). Some colleges use the AP scores to help determine placement in certain courses. DD for example, got a 5 on the AP music theory exam, and will not have to take the first year of college theory (as a music minor....music majors typically get nothing for the AP test). BUT we found no college that used AP scores in their admissions process, although some did have a place on their application for including AP scores taken Jr. year.</p>
<p>I strongly suspect that S's AP scores played an important role in his admission success even though the colleges to which he applied do not make APs mandatory. It would be a very strange adcom that overlooked strings of 5s on numerous APs on their applicants' records.</p>
<p>I agree that if AP scores are on the transcript it would be hard to overlook. At our HS, most AP classes are not even offered until senior year. SO those scores would not even be available to adcoms. I'm not sure how colleges consider the fact that some kids are able to submit AP scores and others cannot (because they are not taken until Sr year) in the admissions process. And I think it also depends on which AP tests we're talking about. I seriously doubt that DD's 5 on the AP music theory exam helped her in admissions at all...</p>
<p>our public HS requires that we pay the $95 per exam, so no use taking the test if: 1) a student does not feel particularly strong in the subject, and if the college requires a 5 for credit; 2) the colleges do not offer credit for the class, eg, some schools do not offer credit for AP Gov. Of course, these two example apply to seniors who know where they are matriculating.</p>
<p>Our public high school pays for all the tests, which they say are $80 each. But one of my daughters teachers is trying to find a way to stop kids with less then 78% from taking the test. Our school has a policy that you will not get credit for an AP class that you do not take the test for, so I don't know what will happen. My daughter is over that percent, so she's safe. But I see a big fight brewing with the parents.</p>
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It would be a very strange adcom that overlooked strings of 5s on numerous APs on their applicants' records.
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<p>Very strange indeed. Our state is now subsidizing the cost of the test fee in an effort to make sure that cost doesn't deter high school students from challenging themselves with AP high school study, AP self-study, or AP testing of knowledge picked up incidentally. My son (9th grader this year) is likely to take three full-course and two half-course AP tests this year. </p>
<p>Colleges will always decide their own rules about who gets in. Students looking for an intellectual challenge will always find ways to challenge themselves. I'm glad the AP testing program exists as one channel for both colleges and students to match up better.</p>
<p>IMHO, I suspect that colleges, universities, and high schools are unwittingly feeding the AP test frenzy that contributes to the rising prices that CB can command. My kids' HS does not subsidize the cost of AP or any CB tests. Gaston Caperton, CB President, spoke at a meeting with parents, and one parent asked him to justify the high cost of taking the tests. His response: because it costs a great deal to administer, grade, and send test scores to the schools. From what I was told later by another source, it's just the push of a button to send the score to a school.</p>
<p>Conversely, if there were less of an emphasis on standardized testing, would that result in the cost decreasing? Probably not, but it's the old story of demand driving the cost. </p>
<p>S took two AP courses (and exams) that did allow him to receive credit at his alma mater so he was able to graduate on time at a school that's notorious for having fifth-year seniors. D, on the other hand, took four AP courses but she still needs to take 30 (out of 32) courses on campus.</p>
I feel certain that our son's AP exams in Junior year played a role in his college admissions. Also, he placed in an honors version of physics and math based on AP scores. His other AP classes (except for US History, I think) gave him non-specific college credits. After his first quarter of sophomore year, he had the credits of a junior (although he'll stay the whole four years.) His language AP meant that he didn't have to take any more foreign language, to his great relief (5 day a week drills at 7:45 am or something!) and he has room now to either double major or pick up a couple of minors. It WAS expensive, since the fees were NOT included in tuition, but I still think it was worth the expense.</p>
<p>Before writing the check for the 7 APs that my daughter wanted to take this year, I looked a the college website and saw that she would get no advanced standing, only credits for the 2 English tests she would take. Since she already will have more credits than she will know what to do with, with no intention of graduating early, I convinced her to skip those tests. Why spend $164 just for show? The only downside was that her teacher was disappointed. I guess she gets a kick (or some real advantage) out of the kids she teaches getting a good mark on the exams.</p>
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<li>Students who go to "non AP" high schools are usually not punished for not taking AP as long as they take the "most challanging courses available".</li>
<li>Most colleges do allow a student to take placement tests and many offer challange exams to get credit.</li>
<li>Many colleges are not giving credit or only givng credit grades of 5 for economic and "control" reasons. Some have said they do not want their students graduating in three years. Ssome are trying to protect their teachers of the frechman courses.</li>
<li>Good AP scores on foreign language exams in French or English often result in the mose credit given.</li>
<li>Many colleges only allow only one of the AP English exams to count for credit.</li>
<li>Many colleges will not consider the AP classes taken prior to senior year as a strength on the application if the student did not take the test.</li>
<li>Many of the elite schools have participated in the studies that show AP/college course equivelancy.</li>
<li>Most students I know, do as well or better in advanced courses that they placed into because of AP, compared to students who took the prereq at the college.</li>
<li>AP is a trademark for a curriculum and the CB is beginning to audit as the label has been so abused at so many schools. With this audut there wil be schools who do not wan to teach AP as they want control over they teach.</li>
<li>A well taught AP course is often better than the corresponding college course as there is often more class time and better student teacher interaction than in college.</li>
<li>Given that a good part of the cost is in the flying in of the many teachers needed to grade the exams and to preparing, writing, and administering the exam, and then testing out different versions the cost is problably not unreasonable. The effort that has to be made to get the exams together and graded correctly in a short time is massive.</li>
<li>I specifically have students take the AP test, because it combats the effects of senioritis, forces students to relook at the the topics for the year, gives a sense of team spirit helping each otehr prepare , builds confidence and with the question analysis that is returned along with the scores helps me see just not only how well I did but also helps me to adjust and improve the course the next year.</li>
<li>S wants to take 7 more tests this year even though he will not get credit. He has taken a couple of tests for "fun" without taking the course but rather just learning in his own. His idea of fun is different than mine. He said if I do not want to pay he would use his own money.</li>
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<p>Back when my oldest took APs, the school paid for the test and it was a course requirement. Now the school requires the students to pay and many choose not to take the exam. I think it's had a bad effect - students and teachers alike are a little less rigorous, knowing there's no outside accountability. I'd advise my second to take the exams through Junior year, for college application purposes. No need to take them senior year since she's not likely to use the credit. </p>
<p>If the school wants her to take them (assuming she does well on them her junior year) they can pay the test fees.</p>
<p>Harvard decided to require scores of 5 on all APs after a study concluded that while students who scored 5 did as well or better in advanced courses than students who had taken the prerequisites in college, students who had scored 4 did less well.</p>
<p>Students in AP classes do spend up to 1/3 more time covering the same subject. On the one hand, this can make students better prepared for the next level in college; on the other, it may make students less able to cope with the faster pace of college courses and the lesser amount of hand-holding.</p>