Thanks for your thoughts. She isn’t stressed about theory. It was just a way to point out how she did not have time for things related to her piano. She actually enjoys it. Now chemistry, that is another matter. Yes, I agree as a sophomore, she needs less stress. I plan on addressing this with her.
I am going to have to ask then. Good to know about the average GPA. Point Loma Nazarene is another we are looking at and they have no audition per say to get into the vocal performance program but they do have a music scholarship early audition and as you said, I think they award extra for grades. I haven’t seen much about the school on this board. They have a beautiful campus right on the beach in San Diego though.
“Even if the child is going to a conservatory connected to a LAC or university, AP courses and 4’s or 5’s on the related tests are useful and these translate into credits which mean fewer LA courses need to be taken” As Glassharmonica said, it depends on the school, for example last I checked NYU does not allow placing out of there core courses based on AP’s, which was also true in my day. They will give you credits, but won’t get your out of the core course requirement and I know of other schools that don’t. That doesn’t mean that schools won’t do this, it is why I always tell people to check with schools they are even thinking of applying to and asking them, because no two schools are alike (I remember asking why I had 8 credits in english lit from the AP 5 I got, but couldn’t bypass the literature requirements, and they told me it was because ‘the college experience is a lot more than you get on an AP test’…which I translated into "we need to keep english lit teachers employed:).
That said, I would still question about taking AP’s if you are thinking of going into music performance, if doing those classes will take away needed time. AP classes tend to have a lot of homework and study time, and if a kid is staying up until 2am doing homework, plus school, when will they practice? I also will add that as a music student, sleep is pretty important, your body being in good shape is part of how well you play or sing, and if the academic rigamarole is causing the kid not to sleep, I would seriously find a way to make that not happen. I can understand the allure of getting out of what we used to call in the dark ages the crap course requirements (which was unfair, I actually liked some of the liberal arts courses I took), and if the kid can get some of those out of the way, that is great, but given the workload of those classes may not be worth it if it compromises their chances of doing the audition. It never hurts to think of schools you potentially might want to apply to, even if it is a big list it is relatively easy to send a message to admissions department asking if they will allow students to bypass core courses based on AP scores, so you know if it is even worth thinking about.
“Point Loma Nazarene is another we are looking at and they have no audition per say to get into the vocal performance program but they do have a music scholarship early audition and as you said, I think they award extra for grades.”
I don’t know this school and given that I am not an expert in vocal performance even less so, but one thing that people hammer home time and again is that with music performance, the level of the program, but even more importantly, the teacher, is important. Does this school have a teacher or teachers whom you feel are good, are known for producing superior students, or was this simply a school from a list? I am not saying the name of the school means anything, but the teacher is huge. Plus a program that generally doesn’t have an audition requirement means that the level of the other students may be so so, and for some kids being the ‘big fish in the small school’ doesn’t work. The reason a program offers scholarships like that is to attract better level students, but that won’t do a student any good if the teachers are not good, so be really careful about where you apply. I am not saying you need to go to Curtis or Juilliard or some other of the ‘great schools’, far from it, there are vocal programs out there not at places like that that are fantastic that also might be more affordable, just saying that music instruction, vocal or instrumental, is not one size fits all, so where ever you apply make sure that the teaching is up there.
Nice to hear so many similar experiences, so in a nutshell:
Balance academics and music…but if push comes to shove lean towards music.
Be mindful that good academics can help you get merit dollars but also be mindful that to get those merit dollars you need to get in. Right back to the music study.
Here is my opinion on looking/apply to schools:
It’s OK to have no audition school (that you can afford) as a safety. Get excited about it with your kid…bc it’s nice to have a place you just know they can go.
Apply super early to a school that’s a slam dunk. I made my daughter apply at our state university non-audition school (and take the tour in which she displayed less than stellar behavior). While she did it only “dutifully” (it took like 15 mins on-line), when she had that acceptance in early October, she was over the moon with her first acceptance. It seemed to give her some confidence in recording pre-screening (if one school accepts me, others will). I also knew students with no acceptances at the end of Feb due to the type of school/program. So if your kid is OK with that, it’s fine but…I didn’t want to ride that horse with my daughter.
Then take on the serious ones…and as musicprt says…think teacher, teacher, teacher…although in all honestly we had trouble figuring that out until the offers came in. So my D just focused on a few different types of schools and gave it a shot. We certainly didn’t have it all figured out.
Last time I checked NYU does not a conservatory. Please read the sentence.
@compdad:
NYU is a university with a music school that offers a BM degree, much as U Michigan does, Rice, Indiana U, and so forth (people usually use the term conservatory to mean a stand alone music school, as opposed to a music performance program in a university). I suggest you go to NYU’s website and check out their programs, they most definitely have a school or schools of music that offer BM’s, which is what people were talking about (among other things, Lady Gaga went there for jazz piano). We were not talking about only stand alone conservatories, we were talking music performance programs.
Musicprnt - please cut out the condescension. I have been on this board for quite a while. I have been very familiar with NYU and its multi-faceted programs for years. I was speaking of conservatories. My statement had to do with conservatories because I wanted to limit my point to conservatories even if the general topic was broader. Oberlin Conservatory does not require the student to separately apply to Oberlin College and allows credit due to AP scores of for non-music classes to be taken in the LAC. There are other examples of like schools. While a different situation in that a dual degree is required, students in Bard’s Conservatory get AP credit for scores of 5 for Bard College courses.
Colleges vary so much on AP. D fell into the “there is no such thing as too much education” group. D took AP and DE in HS knowing full well she might not get any credit for it. She applied to Universities and Conservatories. Luckily, D got a semester worth of AP/DE credit at Oberlin for gen ed classes. She will still need 8 semesters of music classes to graduate, so no tuition savings, but the credit will allow her a lighter load her senior year for auditions or the freedom to take extra classes in music or other fields. It is a balancing act. D dropped the HS tennis team to focus on AP/DE and music.
@compdad:
You made the blanket statement about conservatories in LAC’s and Universities, and while Oberlin and Peabody are unique in that they are associated with the university but don’t require admission, other conservatories do (like Bard, that is de facto since they require a dual degree, so the college has to accept you as well as the conservatories).Whether it is called a conservatory, or a school of music within a university (like Michigan, NYU, USC, Rice),not all of them are the same as Oberlin or Peabody, and more importantly, as GlassHarmonica pointed out, what schools with do with AP’s will vary. You may have been talking about Peabody and Oberlin,and had you mentioned that I wouldn’t have brought up NYU or the other programs, but I also will add that terms like conservatory versus school of music in of themselves don’t mean much, there are conservatories that are standalone, conservatories that are associated with universities and are standalone, and there are schools within LAC’s that call themselves conservatories, others call themselves schools of music…and all of them are different from the others. If you wanted to limit you observation to specific schools, you should have done that, but I was pointing out that not all schools will allow using AP credit to get out of core courses, every school is different, and whether it is called a conservatory or school of music doesn’t matter, school policy does.
As far as being condescending, I wasn’t, but you were being rude, you made a generalized statement about conservatories in a university, when you meant oberlin, and then made a pretty insulting remark when you said “read the sentence” as if I can’t read.
“Even if the child is going to a conservatory connected to a LAC or university, AP courses and 4’s or 5’s on the related tests are useful and these translate into credits which mean fewer LA courses need to be taken” was your exact statement and even if you meant only schools that call themselves conservatory, and not schools of music, this would be factually incorrect, because not every school that is called conservatory that is part of a university or lac will grant AP credit towards LA course. If you said these could translate into credits with schools like that, you would be correct, but both GH and I said that wasn’t true. If you said that was true for Oberlin, it would have been totally factual, but you made a broad based statement.
I read somewhere else on this forum that 5 AP courses over a HS career is sufficient with respect to admissions. If the student does well in 5, there is little value added in taking 10 or 15. That’s with respect to admissions, not getting credit for AP once you’re enrolled.
I am by no means an expert on AP courses as they are not offered at my child’s school. I do know that not all institutions of higher learning accept AP credits. Some places set limits on how many they will accept. I would check the specifics at your daughter’s school to see what the value added is.
Good luck! My kid’s a dancer first and musician second. Similar time pressures and juggling required. I wish she had more down time around the edges.
^That is very true, especially for a future VP major.
For instance, AP calc or AP Chem are not necessary. Hopefully your daughter can handle Honors classes plus 4-8 AP classes TOTAL (including, perhaps, Music Theory, NOT to get credit but because she’d probably enjoy it and do well; perhaps, also, AP English Language; and a foreign language if she can, since languages are useful for VP as far as I can tell, especially French, Italian, and German.) As a future VP major, she’d be totally fine with a total of 4 AP’s throughout her whole HS career.
Just checking you know about the strict faith and conduct requirements à Biola or Point Loma - if not, investigate.
@mamaedefamilia :
The whole idea of AP classes as required for admissions is kind of an oddball thing to me, they have gone from being a way to get college credits and advanced standing, into some sort of criteria for admissions itself. That said, I don’t think there are any hard and fast rules for that, especially when it comes to music school admissions. For a stand alone music school/conservatory, for example, AP’s are likely to count for little, if not nothing (AP music theory might give someone enough knowledge to place into a higher level theory, depending on the program, but they likely won’t give credit for it). Even with music schools inside universities, just from what I have seen, I don’t think that AP’s for music students are that big a deal with admissions, while having them may be advantageous (if they let you get out of core requirements, or for example, with VP, having taken AP foreign language can only help), I also know a lot of kids who got into programs like U Mich, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Rice and other top level music schools in universities and they took few if any AP classes, definitely not even 5. I am not even sure if schools use AP classes in determining academic merit scholarships in that case, or if they use grades and test scores like SAT with those, again I have known music kids who went to those schools who had great grades, but took few if any AP tests,and got academic merit aid, so I don’t know if there is any magic formula there.
It is why as others and I have said, always pays to investigate the schools the kid might be attending and getting background information early, to get an idea. With AP’s, if the kid can do them and not take away from practicing and their music, then that is fine IMO, but if the AP is taking time away from the music, the music should be the priority, since you get into the school of music pretty much solely on how well you audition.
@musicprnt - S takes a few APs. I think he will have 5 by the end of HS (Mus Theory, Chem, APUSH, Humanities, Calculus). Mostly because it is a good fit for his pace of study, but they also compute into the way our HS computes class rank, and some scholarship money (I am thinking of the UNT automatic calculator) uses class rank in the formula. Since other students take AP classes, it could be good to have enough APs to keep up with their ranking.
@goforth:
Obviously, if there is reason to take AP’s (like for example class rank, do they weight the GPA for the class if it is AP, the way some schools do honors classes?), then that should be factored in, the way that AP classes could potentially allow getting out of core courses. If class rank is affected by AP’s, and class rank can get them more scholarship money, then it is worth it. It is why I was careful to say it is a cost/benefit thing, but I also don’t want people thinking that AP’s are a must, have to do, that of course AP’s allow you to get out of core courses, it is another of those things ‘that depend’:). I think the one rule that everyone should understand about music and music school admissions is that there really aren’t any hard and fast rules, magic formulas, whereas with elite level colleges, despite what they claim, there do seem to be magic formulas there, or at least rules that if you want to get in, you better follow, music is more like a bunch of nebulous guidelines.
There was a kid at the pre college program my son was in, whose parents were absolute boors (I really felt sorry for the kid, he was a really nice kid, my son was friends with him), the parents were the music parents from hell, they embarrassed the kid bragging about him, forced him to enter all these competitions, were constantly asking other parents “so how many competitions did your kid win?”. The kid was also academically out there, one of the ones with the hyper gpa, high sat’s, etc…anyway, I think to my dying day I’ll remember the look on the mother’s face, at an admissions fair for music schools, when she of course brought up how many AP tests her son was taking/had taken (all 5’s you know), and then finding out in terms of the music school admission, it would mean basically nothing, was priceless.
Thanks again everyone. The AP classes would just be a way to keep her competitive and not to test out of GE courses as well as “challenging herself” as some universities tend to want to see students do. We were at first looking at BM in VP but then I started to wonder if getting a BA with a vocal emphasis from a school that has a good program might not be something to consider. It would give her an opportunity to take more liberal arts courses other majors take as well as music. We were looking into CPSLO. The reason I bring this up is that Biola is one of her top choices but they look strictly at the unweighted GPA. CSUs look at the weighted GPA and neither school (from what admissions told me yesterday) consider taking challenging courses in their decision… So if she takes AP courses and gets Bs in them, her GPA will go down for Biola. As an aside, does anyone know if a BA in music- vocal emphasis would be a hindrance to getting into a MM program in VP?
OP, I admire you for asking a very fundamental question that everybody should be asking.
In my opinion the biggest problem in American HS these days is sleep deprivation. Sleep deprivation can cause long-term cognitive damage to the developing brain. There is a viscous cycle in that if a kid doesn’t get enough sleep, it impacts their ability to learn, and the impact on their ability to learn causes work to take longer, and they try to compensate by losing more sleep. This usually ends badly in terms of health, grades and self-esteem.
The second biggest problem is the goal of being good enough to get into [name of institution].
That is the wrong question. The right question a student should ask, in my opinion, is what person do I want to be and how can I maximize myself in that direction under the constraints that I am teenager who needs 8 hours of sleep per night, and enough of a social life to allow me to relax, let off steam and be happy. Being happy is a learned not an innate behavior. If you can’t learn to be happy in HS why does anyone thing that you can learn to be happy later. Those questions don’t involve the competition with other students. Those questions are self-directed.
The decision of which college to attend comes after the student has figured out answers to the questions above. Many possible roads are available toward many possible futures. At that point, there is a record of accomplishment and it is what it is. If the student has done the best that she could, there is no reason to fret over what might have been.
I think the student needs to itemize her priorities and give up the APs that cause her to waste too much time on academics. I think some APs are fine. Not all are as brutal as AP Chem. AP Calculus AB is often slower than honors precalculus.
Some APs represent a semester of college work, which taught in HS over a year, but where students take 6 courses not 4, is a pretty reasonable expectation. Some of these are AP Statistics, AP Calculus AB, AP English Literature, AP English Language, AP Psychology, AP Environmental Science, AP Computer Science and a few more.
Other APs represent a years worth of college work, which can be extremely taxing on a HS student. These are AP Biology, AP Chemistry, AP Physics, AP Economics (when both micro and macro are taught), AP European History, AP American History, AP Calculus BC.
I would try to stick to the semester-course taught over a year AP courses.
@vpmajormom a BA should be no hindrance whatsoever. The audition for her MM is still primary. D got her BM but did her MM at a school that only offers their undergrads a BA. Their BA undergrads get into MM programs at Curtis, the AVA, Juilliard etc .( But all BAs are not created equal. So take a careful look at the course work, teachers and graduate successes.)
For a BA or BM in voice, look into St Olaf. It has merit scholarships for musicians, superb music ensembles, offers opportunities to grow in her faith if she’s interested, and excellent overall academics (especially math and science, plus study abroad). They do look at AP’s but wouldn’t expect a musician to have a class as taxing as AP Chem. They also have competitive merit scholarships and meet financial need.
However compared to your other choices 1° it’s Lutheran, not evangelical and 2° it’s in Minnesota, not California.
CSU do weigh APs and Honors, up to 8 of them.
You can see it here: http://www.csumentor.com/planning/high_school/gpa_calculator.asp
Have you looked into Sonoma State?
Oh, and +++ Like Like to ClassicRockerDad’s post. Especially the part about sleep. 
I agree about ClassicRockerDad’s post- great addition to the thread.
Amen! I am with you on all of this ClassicRockerdad… So may kids I know are tired and don’t get nearly enough sleep. I think we as adults, tend to sometimes minimize its importance in teens. MusicaMusica and MYO, thank you for sharing your experiences and advice re BA/BM degree. I am glad to know either would be accepted into an MM program if the audition is good enough. MYO, Lutheran/Evangelical/Catholic-all are fine. It is a bonus for us if it is a Christian school. I will look into St Olafs as well. She does like the seasons which we don’t have much of here. I have heard good things about it. How would one determine the quality of a BA program? Should I look at the percentage of classes in music offered vs liberal arts? Other than researching the reputation of a particular school and the bios of the faculity, I am afraid I wouldn’t know how to determine if a BA program was a good one.