Honors classes vs Music?

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>If my daughter's Guidance Counselor is reading this, realize this question is nothing against you-- you were a great help today and can only work with what the school offers!</p>

<p>DD's school has always been known for it's Music programs and it's academics aren't to shabby :) but we set up an appointment with the GC and weren't exactly extactic with the results. DD is an entering HS Freshman.</p>

<p>My daughter was recommended for honors courses, but because the school isn't exactly huge, they only offer one section of each honors class. So you have to take them the one class period offered or not at all. This meant in order to take all honors classes, she could not take chorus or chamber singers (the more advanced singing group she tried out and made as a Freshman); she can also not take Wind Ensemble which is the more advanced band. She is an Oboe player playing at the highest level in NY state and was really looking forward to Wind Ensemble, now she can only take Concert Band, and who knows if this will ever change? Honors courses look to be offered the same class periods all four years, with
honors turning into AP's later on.</p>

<p>DD truly believes she wants to major in either music performance or music education. But it doesn't even look like she'll be able to take Music Theory and Advanced Music Theory, which she was really happy they offered. She may never be able to take any type of chorus or advanced music ensemble because she wishes to take honors courses and French. We signed her up for honors everything, including French (on another post we were wondering about
dropping the language but with only a couple more years she may not have to take a
language in college at all and it's a good pre-college course) today basically to hold her place, because kids will be shut out because there is only one section of each. And there is always the chance Music will become secondary and she will want to peruse something else,
but I really don't think so or does she. </p>

<p>Budget cuts are killing our schools! Even our music program that offered 10 lessons a quarter to students cut that to 5 after cutting a faculty member. At least we have her
Private lessons. And our school also offers drum line and jazz band as actual courses, and daughter can play sax and drum line has no prerequisites but the honors courses are offered one period a day, blocking these out, what did you guys or your kids do if you encountered such a situation, or what would you do?</p>

2

<p>I don’t know what happened with my last post, the spacing’s wrong and spelling not perfect, hope you guys get the gist of it!</p>

3

<p>That’s a tough situation. Frankly, my kids participated in their school music programs but got most of their musical education through other avenues - private lessons, community music schools, summer programs etc. While we know students - especially music education majors - who primarily got their music training at school, it didn’t work for us (strings - no doubt is different for other instruments and voice). Sounds like the school isn’t very supportive of high achieving students who are also musicians!</p>

4

<p>We have a similar situation at my kids’ high school. My recommendation is, first off, to make some noise to the administration! They may not realize that there are these conflicts. Many administrators are aware of the statistics that show that kids who participate in music in high school tend to have better standardized test scores, etc., and they may consider a schedule change. In the meantime, I’d say: pull your daughter out of one honors course (whichever conflicts with the music ensemble she’d most like to participate in), and encourage her to continue with that ensemble throughout high school. Many colleges look favorably on students who are able to juggle academics and music, and I don’t think giving up one honors course will hurt her. Good luck!</p>

5

<p>Your daughter’s situation is very similar to what my son found. In fact, until you mentioned drum line, I thought you were from our school (we have no drum line). We are in a very small district in upstate NY. I agree with stradmom. Son received most of his music education outside of our high school. However, he did manage to take music classes along with the honors/AP classes. </p>

<p>As a freshman, my son played sax for concert band (all that is available in 9th grade), then in 10th grade should have moved to Wind Ensemble, but it conflicted with other classes. He ended up taking chorus because it fit. He would not have taken chorus otherwise, but really enjoyed it. Senior year, he was able to return to his saxophone. To be honest, his sax playing was at a pretty high level and he wouldn’t have found either band to be particularly educational or challenging. Some kids who were going to move up to Wind Ensemble ended up just staying with Concert Band due to scheduling conflicts. It happens.</p>

<p>If your daughter is taking private lessons (I assume she is since she is already at a very high level), then I am just guessing Concert vs. Wind is irrelevant. My son enjoyed the experience for the social side, but didn’t look to get a lot out of it. Your daughter would get more out of a youth orchestra/ensemble experience. </p>

<p>Son managed to take most of the academic music classes, although I think his junior year, he technically had no lunch but ate during his theory 2 class. I think that was a common occurance across the high school - kids taking a class during lunch because that was the only time the class was offered. It is one of the downsides of a smaller school along with budget cuts.</p>

6

<p>My first thought is that this needs to change for everyone. Academically talented kids deserve to be involved with good music, and music classes should not be looked at as filler for kids who are not in top classes either. This scheduling reflects a lack of respect for music in my view.</p>

<p>I would talk with the principal, then superintendent, to ask for changes. If you don’t get satisfaction, I would write the school committee, and try to get some other parents to then follow up with you by getting it on the school committee agenda, and arriving as a group. You could also write the paper at the same time. Seriously.</p>

<p>My daughter dropped honors math and also went back a year, so she dropped a level AND a year, so that she could take music theory in our small high school. For her, it was worth it, and she got into great colleges and conservatories, so it did not affect her (but the guidance counselor wrote a note to colleges explaining). It showed her dedication to music.</p>

<p>Like others here, I would add that her really important music experiences happened outside of school, at least toward the end of high school. Lessons, a summer program, community band, a Saturday program at the nearest conservatory, that kind of thing. However, without the ensembles and classes she had in early high school, I really really think she would have missed her calling entirely.</p>

<p>Our school used to have all music classes during the school day, and they were schedule so that honors and AP kids could make it. The genius principal who was able to do this left, and the replacement put chamber music and chorus into after school slots. Hopefully, he has gotten the knack for scheduling and this won’t happen again.</p>

7

<p>My vote would be to take all honors classes. If oboe is her primary instrument, I agree the main area of participation for this should be outside of school. If she does participate in music in school, a secondary instrument or voice might be a better choice, allowing her more experience away from the oboe. Are there any after school music experiences at school? Could she start a club after school?
Does she have to take PE? Can she do a sport outside of school that would get her out of PE in school, to free up a period?</p>

8

<p>My D, just like the others on here, got the huge majority of her music experience outside of school. If a show wasn’t suitable for her, she went elsewhere to perform in something that was. She never took instrumental or voice lessons through the high school because by that time, she was too advanced. We found the best possible teachers through the symphony, conservatory and other contacts. Her school was a private one, so D chose to take advantage of the Honors, AP and dual-credit courses and that paid off when she was able to fulfill all of her gen eds in college with those. The school didn’t offer AP Music Theory, so she took theory lessons outside of school too; I wouldn’t get hung up on that class because conservatories will almost never accept AP Theory, but knowledge never hurts and it’s a good foundation.
As Compmom says, try asking for changes, but choose your battles wisely. If your D does decide to major in performance, it honestly won’t matter if she plays in her high school wind ensemble (especially if she’s already playing at a Level 6) but it is important for her to play in a good youth orchestra and study with a really good teacher.
I think the plan you have now is the best one considering the options.</p>

9

<p>Hi, I’m the one whose daughter plays oboe and sax. My daughter’s school is also small, with conflicts all the time. However, the administration is extremely flexible. It is tough on students as there are so many graduation requirements.</p>

<p>I can understand that as a freshman, your daughter wants to participate in the wind ensemble. It will be the year that is most interesting and she will meet the other band players. If she is good, she will soon find the ensemble boring. There are several ways to approach this and there is no one right way.</p>

<p>Your daughter could drop the one honors class that conflicts with wind ensemble, for next year. At my daughter’s school, students can still do honors in a regular class-just do the extra assignments. That way she can keep up and take the honors level in 10th grade. It won’t matter if she doesn’t get the honors credit for only 9th grade.</p>

<p>My daughter has actually never played in the oboe section regularly at school. In 6th grade, placed into the 8th grade band, she quickly discovered how boring the oboe parts were. Most middle and high school band compositions have easier parts written for oboe than for the other instruments, because in most of the country the oboe players can’t handle the same level music as the clarinets can, for example. Instead of dropping band, my daughter took up bassoon. Now in high school she usually plays principal alto sax, although she will switch off during alternate quarters and has played Bb clarinet, Eb clarinet, Eb bass clarinet, English horn, bassoon, or whichever instrument the band director or orchestra director need. She has played principal alto sax in the high school jazz band since 6th grade. Next year, 11th grade, she does have a conflict and will not take wind ensemble. But she will still perform in all the concerts with one or two rehearsals.</p>

<p>I recommend that your daughter get into a youth orchestra on oboe (unless she is already in one?) so that she can learn the orchestral literature. My daughter has played with outside youth orchestras and pit orchestras (musical theater jobs) for about 4 years now.</p>

<p>At my daughter’s school, wind players can play in the orchestra if they wish–you could ask about that. The school’s best flute player played with the school orchestra instead of the band for her last two years because she didn’t like the band director.</p>

<p>As for music theory, your daughter can take that outside of school, and it might be a better course as well. There are online high schools which offer music theory courses.</p>

10

<p>I went through a similar situation in high school. I would, without hesitation, have her take one or more music classes in high school. Really it’s a totally different experience than playing in a youth orchestra outside of school (though I’d also recommend outside of school music like a youth orchestra, solo competitions, all-state, etc.). </p>

<p>Try finding some classes online. See if you daughter can take a class “independent study” with the teacher. At my old high school doing independent study meant you did all the work and tests but didnt go to an actual class. </p>

<p>As a note, oboe is one of the more rare instruments. It helps with college admissions (even for a non music major) and at music schools it’s one of the less competitive instruments. Less competitive is a huge plus for both majors and non majors and it could give her more scholarship opportunities as well as admission opportunities. I would do all you can to not limit her oboe playing opportunities as long as she enjoys playing.</p>

11

<p>Lagging, it’s been a few years so I had forgotten the online course option. Both my musician daughter and my dancer daughter took online courses (AP’s) to free up their schedules.</p>

<p>Other options mentioned are good suggestions too: independent study for an academic class, and also, in our school, one student with a similar scheduling issue worked on music as an independent study and then played in all the concerts. There is always community college and online college classes as well, which amount to AP’s.</p>

<p>It’s great to have a flexible principal, we found!</p>

<p>As for rabble rousing, it sure can get tiring, so as Mezzo’s Mama said, it is good to choose your issues wisely. But a scheduling issue like this affects a lot of kids beyond yours, and it seems as if a discussion of the school’s priorities could be useful for many if it could happen without too much impact on you and your family.</p>

12

<p>I do recommend participating in at least one year of a school ensemble if that appeals to your daughter. It’s usually a nice group of kids – even if the musical level is lower than she is used to, there are other intangibles to be gained from participating. It’s like being a member of a sports team or club – it keeps them more connected to the school. It would be more of a social outlet than anything – not a bad thing, especially for a freshman. Good luck and let us know what you decide!</p>

13

<p>redeye41,
My son attended a very large high extremely competitive HS in the Northeast that is known for it’s music and it’s academics. Scheduling was not a problem. Many of my son’s friends took honors and AP classes while also doing music. But the issue for us is that learning takes time. And although honors classes might be easy freshman year courses like AP biology and AP chemistry are extremely time consuming no matter how smart you are. Once my son decided that he was committed to music we made a decision to let him focus his time and energy on music. He was able to be involved in as many music groups as he wanted, did an outside music preparatory program, had plenty of time to practice and most important of all he managed to get through high school healthy and relatively stress free. Our son had time to sleep, something that is very important for adolescent brains and often neglected in our pushy over achieving high school culture.</p>

<p>My attitude was that our son’s brain was better off, regardless of what he decided to do in the future, practicing music and improving himself as a musician than he was learning the massive quantity of material in AP/Honors classes. Most kids who are interested in pursuing a scientific path in college will have to retake first year Biology and Chemistry anyways. And AP history and AP English have questionable benefits for a child who is a solid writer/reader. A child interested in pursuing that path would do just as well writing and reading as much as possible with their free time. </p>

<p>We felt comfortable doing this because we have an older child who basically failed HS due to a complicated mix of illness and learning disabilities. His senior year he took classes at our local University extension school. The child who was behind most of his peers academically is now an entering junior in college was in almost all advanced classes with seniors last semester. He leap-frogged over his peers. This helped me realize that there is nothing to be gained by pushing a child academically in HS and a lot to loose. </p>

<p>Oh and the results: My son was accepted everywhere with scholarships. I am sure it helped that he had a straight A’s in college preparatory classes (he also has LDs and probably would have ended up with more B’s if he took AP/Honors). And more importantly he is NOT burned out on learning. He is excited to take some academic classes in addition to his music studies.</p>

14

<p>I asked if maybe next year or the year after these music classes would open to her, as maybe they thought older students take these higher level ensembles and courses. I was told there was no way to tell, the Principle does the best he can in scheduling to accommodate the most students. While I understand this, this seems to never have been an issue before, I don’t know why now maybe due to budget cuts. I know the director of wind ensemble is not very happy. One of the reasons we were happy with our district was because it offered so many in school music opportunities. DD has a private teacher and does as much as can outside of school, but we are a little isolated. For instance, she’s going to be in a Wind Ensemble at Syracuse this fall, but it only lasts a month and I know she’ll love playing with them but not sure how much she’ll learn.</p>

15

<p>Hmm… we’re a small district in upstate NY!</p>

16

<p>Perhaps your daughter should audition for one of the pre-conservatory programs in Manhattan. Some of them are all day on Saturdays. I know some people who make the weekly trip.</p>

17

<p>I called SUNY Potsdam today and Ithaca and asked what they would recommend. Seems to be two schools DD is interested in. The Potsdam counselor kind if laughed, but in a good way, saying he doesn’t get many calls from 14 year olds mothers!</p>

<p>He said if she chooses Crane, it’s the Audition, Audition, Audition! (Kind of knew that!) Did I mention the Audition is important? :slight_smile: He said if she picked a different major, honors classes were very good to have, but not a deal breaker in admissions. (Not interested in Potsdam if not music). The Guidance Counselor at HS said not taking Honors would not effect her admissions to a SUNY as long as she kept a high average, but if she gets some merit aid we would consider a private, but if not a music major she would need honors for merit, correct? We will get no other aid, EFC is to high. Plus, I want her to be prepared for college. Although, GC said they have a student at Cornell right now that took no honors courses whatsoever, and she’s very accommodating saying that if daughter chose music, she would personally write a letter and call the school saying that in taking music there was no way to take honors. So… Back to square one?</p>

<p>As someone suggested, I called and asked if she could just switch her Science to non- honors to take Wind Ensemble, but the answer is no because it creates a domino effect where Science has to be taken during English Honors, etc so it’s all or nothing which stinks.</p>

18

<p>I’ll look into that. Thanks.</p>

19

<p>

</p>

<p>Rather than making the drive into New York City, it might be a shorter trip to Eastman in Rochester. IIRC, they offer a precollege prep program.</p>

20

<p>Good point, Stradmom. I really don’t know the geography of New York state. If it were me, I would take my daughter to the closest professional or pre-college training program, wherever that is.</p>