Apples vs oranges (UNC+Honors vs Fordham)

College Search & Selection
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DD23 has it narrowed down to UNC Chapel Hill vs Fordham, with very different packages. UNC is courting her heavily, but without any financial aid (we’re OOS). Fordham has offered her full tuition, but no other perks.

She wants to get her doctorate in neuroscience so having tons of research opportunity/mentoring as an undergrad could matter. Her heart is with Fordham, I think. But it’s hard for me to think about her walking away from an R1 research university that is showering one opportunity after another at her feet: honors, accelerated research, and possibly a sponsored gap year abroad (she’s a finalist). We could make UNC work financially… just barely.

Is it crazy to toss a loaded offer like that aside for a “standard” (but cheap!) undergrad experience at a less robust school? What should we be thinking about or helping her consider? We’ve briefly visited both campuses and are visiting again in mid-April.

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Two great options so congrats to your D. My S went to Fordham and had a fantastic 4 years. If your D prefers Fordham and it is notably less expensive then I’d have no issue walking away from UNC. Revisiting both schools before she decides is ideal.

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I loved my time at Fordham and can think of no way in which I was deprived of opportunities. And my goodness, at the end of the day, you are in New York City - surely there are opportunities there? Your daughter will connect with and develop relationships with faculty and they will support her in her research interests. And in NYC you have the world at your feet :slight_smile:

(Just my highly biased opinion…)

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So - you should be stressed out financially for the next four years? There is inflation - and college costs more than they tell you - I’d say $3-5K. Eating out (you tire of the dining hall), uber, trips with friends, spring break, etc.

I can’t imagine you would have a shortage of research opportunities at Fordham.

There’s zero reason to have financial stress if you have an alternative. Zero.

You have to retire one day and more…to me, that’s enough right there - and your student likes Fordham…so bonus.

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Why is her heart with Fordham? Usually the heart knows.

Why not meet with someone in Fordham’s neuroscience department and put your cards on the table? Tell them about the offer at UNC and ask them what research opportunities are available at Fordham. Find out what their track record is of placing students in PhD programs. The money saved can help pay for that doctorate.

What I read on Fordham’s Neuroscience webpage is very encouraging:

“Our primary aim is to make you be a highly competitive candidate for postgraduate study in neuroscience through our uniquely integrative program. . .

“We . . . prepare you by requiring you to engage in Neuroscience research by completing an independent peoject during your time here. Prepare to be fascinated.

“We want you to excel in your field - and as a human being.”

Sounds like their stated objectives and your daughter’s align. Marketing hype or truth? That’s why you visit and meet with a representative of the department - preferably the department chair. You can size them up and decide if you want to entrust your daughter’s future to them.

Something else you can do is to do some research on the faculties of the two departments and see how they compare. These professors bring their own backgrounds and their own research interests regardless of at what university they currently they are currently teaching. And even though Fordham is not R1 like UNC, they are R2 which means that their professors are also engaged in research. Here are past university affiliations I found for the Fordham faculty who are listed in their Neuroscuence Department:

MIT
Carnegie-Mellon University
Albert Einstein College of Medicine
University of Miami School of Medicine
Free University of Berlin, Germany
Cornell University, Weill Medical College
Cheng Kung University
University of Michigan
Princeton University
NYU Grossman School of Medicine
Colgate University
University of Virginia
Columbia University, College of Physicians & Surgeons

This doesn’t strike me as a group of lightweights.

Finally, you might ask of each school whom your daughter wil be working with on research projects. Full faculty? TAs? How much contact will she have with full professors?

The common data set for each college states a 13:1 student:teacher ratio at Fordham and 17:1 at UNC. At Fordham, about 2-3% of all university classes have enrollments over 40 students. At UNC, roughly 20% have enrollments over 40. At Fordham, about half the classes have fewer than 20 students. At UNC, about 40% of the classes have fewer than 20 students. You can get more specific information about Neuroscience classes directly from each of the respective departments.

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If her heart is with Fordham, then she should go with Fordham. It is also extremely difficult to walk away from full tuition (that is also a huge perk).

I say this as a parent whose child attended UNC as an OOS student. While UNC is a fabulous school, so is Fordham!

Good luck to your daughter!

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UNC is great in many ways but there are also negatives - don’t forget, it’s a large public university. Getting needed classes, access to faculty advisement, large-sized classes, are just some of the common complaints (although, if your daughter is in the honors program, she may not be affected). In some cases, the perception of UNC and reality are two different things.

In general, there are a lot of hidden costs associated with 4 years of college. Things like off campus living and parking are expensive at UNC. If she wants to go all the way to her doctorate, and loves Fordham, it would be hard to argue in favor of the undergrad expense of UNC. Plus, assuming UNC has her program, she can apply to the graduate/doctorate programs there.

Fordham with full tuition is a great option in a great location for opportunities. Has your daughter reached out to them to see if she can get any other perks? Did she get honors there? At most colleges, you can apply for honors once there (hard to believe they didn’t offer it to her).

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Your underlying assumption/anxiety is that UNC-CH is categorically ‘better’ from that perspective than Fordham, and in that you are mistaken.

Students get into top neuroscience PhD programs from every type of college & university, from tiny LACs to R1. There are many, many ways to get the research opps needed. @ColdWombat (who is what your student - and so many others! neuro has taken over from IR as the hot potential major- hopes to be) has been posting about this.

You will NOT be jeopardizing your student’s ability to get into a top PhD program by letting them go to Fordham. You WILL be jeopardizing your own financial future (and possibly your relationship with your student) if you push them into going to UNC-CH.

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And full tuition isn’t nothing.

UNC is courting her, you say, but not financially. I think Fordham is doing the courting. She can get a great education at Fordham and you won’t have to worry about how you will pay tuition. Unless you are hoping she actually chooses UNC, I see no reason she shouldn’t go with Fordham.

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Our family was in a similar position last year. Our student had been accepted to NYU Tisch at full pay vs. Fordham with a full tuition scholarship (making 4 years at Fordham the same price as just 1 year at NYU.) Our family could have made it work, but it would have been a financial stretch. On the other hand, we had questions about future job prospects, loss of a brand name, and whether Fordham’s program in his area of interest was too small.

Of note, Fordham did not offer our kid honors either. Honors at Fordham is not like at most schools where all kids above a certain academic threshold are invited, rather it is a tiny and quirky program with holistic admission. ~18 students at LC and maybe 36 at RH campus. Basically it replaces Fordham’s core distribution requirements with classes taken only with the honors cohort. The classes are not smaller or more discussion based because small and discussion-based is the way pretty much all classes at Fordham run. Apparently, some kids turn honors down because it doesn’t confer any concrete benefits such as early class selection or better housing etc, but rather may constrain you from taking some classes you want. Also, departments also have honors designations they give to their top students (in sophomore year I think) so not being invited to the incoming honors program does not mean that students miss out on an opportunity to be designated honors.

Anyway, our student eventually chose Fordham, and is thriving. His program is smaller, but is offering him a ton of opportunities. Also, Fordham’s broad distribution requirements have turned out to be very interesting for our student and he is going to explore a second major. Fordham also has mentoring that helps students prep to compete for awards such as Fulbrights, Rhodes etc if that is something your D would be interested in.

That gap year abroad program at UNC sounds very intriguing, so I see why that’s a temptation. Fordham’s full tuition scholarship does apply for study-abroad (and my student does plan on doing a couple of semesters) but that’s probably not as cool as a full year abroad!

Anyway, feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

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I’m not sure that how much time a student is doing research with a “full professor” is a helpful metric. The ruler of the research domain is the Principle Investigator (PI), who might or might not be a full professor, but much of the project development work (not just the physical hands on work, but also the shaping of next steps, approaches, etc.) is done by PhD students. Teaching Assistants (TAs) are typically PhD students doing the teaching component of their training; they are almost always also RAs (research assistants). PhD RAs typically oversee any Masters or UG students who are involved with the research projects they are involved with. At the universities (v LACs) that I know best PIs don’t spend all that much time with their PhD students much less with 1st year students!

There is a lot of work in training up a 1st year UG, from equipment usage to lab protocols to the concepts and terminology of what is being researched, etc. A PI in a research uni will likely give the big picture overview to a new group of students (this is the what/why/how of this research), but much of the hands on training will be done by people lower down the food chain (including, in big unis/labs, by professional lab techs).

Asking about how many first years are able to get research positions is probably more useful- the answer should be ‘as many as want them’!

ps, ‘typically’ ime, obvs! there is a lot of variation by field and institution

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I agree that the research experience at universities vs LACS is very different. At universities, the labs are much bigger and there is a hierarchy where each level usually supervises lower levels. It is hit or miss how much attention an undergrad would get (I have seen it be a lot, but I have also seen undergrads be essentially ignored or given just scut work to do.) At LACs, however, the undergrads work directly with the PI. The research is not as “big time” and is less likely to result in being published, but the students play a much bigger role and get a lot of mentoring. I have shared before on CC about some of the research I did during undergrad at the LAC I attended, and it was by no means groundbreaking research! But when it came time for grad school I got in everywhere I applied, including prestigious programs, all fully funded.

ETA: Fordham is not strictly an LAC, but essentially functions as one when it comes to student research from what I can tell.

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I don’t want to derail this thread but there are some generalizations being discussed about research that haven’t been true in my D’s large public. She works side by side with a PhD student who is in their last year and meets weekly with the prof running the lab. There is no hierarchy of RAs or masters students overseeing undergrads.

Just want the OP to not make incorrect assumptions about UNC. That said, my vote would be for Fordham! Sounds like a wonderful opportunity to be debt free and I agree that they are courting her much harder than UNC with the $. Also something to being a big fish in the smaller pond ; )

Congrats to your student!

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Fordham’s neuroscience program requires participation in research. I counted 25 profs they list as affiliated with the program for doing research. I don’t think your daughter will lack for opportunity there, and may get even better opportunity to work directly with a prof. At an R1, it’s typical to be shunted to a grad student for mentoring. The postdocs are even too busy mentoring the PhD students.

To prepare herself for a neuroscience PhD, she needs to thrive in her undergraduate program. It doesn’t matter if it’s in neuroscience, biology, psychology, or chemistry with a bio minor. I actually recommend biology or chemistry (with plenty of bio) as the best majors for a future in neuro, but that’s just my opinion.

She should go to a school where she can excel. It doesn’t need to be an R1, and it can be easy to get lost in the shuffle at an R1. The opportunities in neuroscience are more than adequate at both schools.

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On lab size, they can really vary from lab to lab and department to department. It could be just a few people to 25+. In a big lab, you may have:
Principal Investigator
Research Scientist - PhD level full time staff
Research Technician - Non PhD full time staff
Post Doctoral Fellow
Graduate Student
Undergraduate Researcher
Undergraduate Lab Worker

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Thanks, everyone. I’m a lot less familiar with Fordham than UNC so maybe I just needed to hear a bunch more “it’s a great school” stories to ease my mind. Which you have provided in spades! We will definitely reach out to the department and see if she can have a call with one of their professors.

Appreciate all the great feedback, experience, and insight!

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I appreciate your insights. Your comments remind me of my niece’s experience at Boston College, a university with a lot of similarities to Fordham. At BC she was able to do research at a high enough level in her field that she was able to present a paper in person at a national conference in Atlanta. She is now in the last semester of finishing up her doctorate.

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That’s a good point. While attending a national conference is certainly not expected at the undergraduate level, it’s a great experience. It’s especially nice when you’re looking at grad schools because you can actually go meet profs whose work interests you.

I attend many of those conferences, and most of the undergrads who attend are from smaller and/or primarily undergraduate institutions. That’s because bigger institutions prioritize sending grad students and postdocs to conferences and the undergrads (often but not always) get left behind. There are trade-offs with big vs small schools.

Even though I attended an R1 for undergrad, I worked in a small lab directly with the prof (PI). I didn’t get to attend a national conference for my work in that lab. I did some investigating and found a small conference for the niche that I wanted to study for my PhD. My PI contacted the organizer and got me travel grant funding to attend. I met with profs of interest, and spoke with the people in their labs. That experience was invaluable and I was able to zero in on my grad school plans considerably. I did all my lab rotations and my PhD work with profs I met at that conference.

It’s well worth it for someone who wants to do a PhD, and IME, it’s more common for undergrads from smaller institutions to attend such conferences.

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I stated above that I think this student should attend Fordham because that is where she wants to go, and they gave her the biggest perk of all: full tuition. My opinion still stands.

That being said, I want to add that my daughter participated in research for all 4 years at UNC and was also published. I say this to clarify a common misconception regarding large public universities.

Best wishes!

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I would never say that they are less likely to do research or to be published as undergrads at a large public (but maybe someone else said that). In my experience they are somewhat less likely to get individual attention from the PI and less likely to attend a national conference. It’s still possible to do both as an undergrad at an R1, because I did so myself.

Profs at R1s have more pressure to publish a lot, and many have a larger percentage of their time devoted to research vs teaching. So I don’t think there’s a big difference in likelihood of an undergrad publishing between large vs small schools. I’m not confident saying there’s a difference in either direction for that – I’d have to see data.

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