Applied for CS to Arts & Sciences but accepted into Engineering?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Tufts University
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D applied specifically to A&S for CS but was accepted into Engineering. She would like to possibly double major in CS & Cognitive & Brain Science and would also like to take some art and music classes. The Engineering degree has additional requirements that don’t really interest her, so she applied to A&S specifically.

Is it easy to switch into A&S once she arrives on campus?

Does it make sense to do this? One concern we had is that a BA in CS is generally perceived as a weaker degree. Any thoughts about this?

Thanks!

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I went to the Jumbo Days and went on the Comp Sci tour and what they said about double majoring is that its easier to get one degree in one college and the second in the other. The second degree you won’t have to abide by the colleges requirements just the major. Also they said its really easy to switch between colleges your first two years so it shouldn’t be a problem.

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Thanks @greensak good to hear.

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@ormdad Welcome to the Tufts family!

Switching back and forth early on is not a big deal, with the qualification that switching into a major with lots of requirements is harder than switching to one with fewer requirements. This is due to the scheduling challenges associated with meeting prerequisites and getting all the required courses in. If I am not mistaken, you are local to Tufts, so summer courses can be an option if a late change of heart/major occurs.

My advice is that if one is undecided, proceed on a path that meets the needs of the major with more requirements until a decision is made. This requires more planning, but keeps more options open.

In terms of what makes sense, here are the potential reasons why the LA degree might be perceived as “weaker”:

  1. The Engineering degree requires a minimum of 38 courses to graduate vs. 32 for the Liberal Arts degree.
  2. The Engineering degree requires two more math courses (Multi-dimensional Calc and Probability and Stats)
  3. The Engineering degree requires two more science classes and is less flexible in the choices (the requirements include a semester of Physics and Chem and a second semester of one of them as well as a science elective vs. just two science electives for LA)
  4. The Engineering degree requires four Engineering Science courses (one Intro to Engineering, one Engineering Programming, one Intro to Analog Electronics, and one Intro to Digital Electronics).
  5. The Engineering degree requires two more Computer Science Courses (electives)
  6. The Engineering degree requires a Senior Project (equivalent to two additional courses).

The LA degree requires one more semester of English, a semester of World Civilization, three semesters of a Foreign Language, and three semesters of a Foreign Culture. (Engineers are absolved from the language and culture requirements because Engineering is considered to be a foreign culture and they already speak a foreign language)

The reality is that what one does with their time and other courses above and beyond the minimum course requirements can have more impact on the perceived strength (and relevance) of one’s college experience than the selection of the major. This is how a Fine Arts major can end up on Wall Street.

For example, a liberal arts/comp sci major can take 38 courses (and may in a double major situation), can sign up for a senior project, can take more math or science than required even for engineers (by double majoring in Math or a Science), can take engineering classes (as long as they have the prerequisites), can sign up for a senior project, can sign up for research or independent study project, or use the extra time for an in-semester work experience (which can in z some cases count for course credit), hackathons, seminars, or relevant club activities. So, the LA degree can be as “strong” as one wants it to be, but to manage perceptions, one also needs to consider how that “strength” can be conveyed in a resume.

A Cog Sci major has lots of requirements, so a Cog Sci major + Engineering Comp Sci with Art & Music probably won’t fit in 38 courses unless there is some AP credit. A Cog Sci minor instead of a major might work.

If the switch is made to LA Comp Sci, then trying to maintain the depth of Comp Sci coursework will most likely push the number of courses beyond the 32 minimum (depending on AP credit) Given your daughter’s interests, Artificial Intelligence/Machine Learning would be a great area of concentration for her Comp Sci studies. It is one of the hottest areas and has widespread applicability across many industry segments. It would be highly desireable to try take a number of upper level courses in this area and/or do some research/special projects. Some of these may drag along some additional Math prerequisites.

Another possibility is to use the Engineering/No Major Degree (36 required courses) to design a custom Engineering major to support a Comp Sci + Cog Sci combination. This option does away with all the LA distribution requirements, as well as the language and culture requirements and provides more flexibility in science requirements and engineering requirements. Depending on your daughters interests, this may actually be the most efficient way to achieve what she is looking to do

Without knowing your daughter’s interests it is hard to make a recommendation, but she probably was not aware of the third option and might want to explore it with her advisor. I believe that Comp Sci, as well as Entrepreneurship, Engineering Psychology (i.e Human Factors/Human Interface Design) and Engineering Management courses would all count as “engineering” requirements. The latter options would provide the broader perspective necessary to transition to a leadership position in Comp Sci. There are also some Music Engineering courses that are popular among LA majors.

Good Luck, and let me know if you have more questions

Here is some reference material:

Computer Science Requirements if taken within LA (There are other generic LA degree requirements)

http://www.cs.tufts.edu/forms/CompSci_LA_major.pdf

Computer Science Requirements if taken within Engineering.

http://engineering.tufts.edu/docs/degrees/BSCS_DegreeSheet2018.pdf

Computer Engineering Major Requirements (For reference purposes)

http://engineering.tufts.edu/docs/degrees/BSCPE_DegreeSheet2018.pdf

Design your own Engineering Major Requirements (36 courses)

http://engineering.tufts.edu/docs/degrees/BS_NoMajor_DegreeChecklist.pdf

Designing your own Interdisciplinary LA major (included for completeness)

http://cis.tufts.edu/ISmajor/index.htm

Cognitive Science Major Requirements

http://ase.tufts.edu/psychology/undergraduate/concCognitive.htm

Cognitive Science Minor Requirements

http://ase.tufts.edu/philosophy/undergraduate/minor.asp

Computer Science/Cognitive Science Interdisciplinary Research Labs

http://hci.cs.tufts.edu/bciindex.html

http://hrilab.tufts.edu/people/matthias.php

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Wow @Mastadon, amazing! Thank you so much! The CS/No Major option sounds really interesting.

I had noted the Machine Learning classes at Tufts- very relevant these days and not that common to find a program that has specific, practical ML courses. Part of why I’m very excited for her to be going to Tufts.

Looking at all of this, I think a Minor in CBS would be best. Or she could just take a few classes she’s interested in- I’m not sure how important getting a minor really is these days.

I also forgot about the Entrepreneurship minor. She’s thinking about that also. Yikes.

Thanks again!

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In CS it’s not whether you have the BA or BS degree that matters. It’s what courses you’ve taken. The two companies I know best (Google and iFactory in Boston) both will require coding tests from potential new hires. Don’t forget you don’t have to double major or minor - you can just take all those courses that interest you. As long as you can list skills on a resume hiring managers don’t care that much about the exact configuration of majors and minors.

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Thanks @mathmom

The No Major option that @Mastadon brought up sounds perfect (except the name). Basically she wants to take a full Math/CS courseload but could skip the 4 physics/chem classes (no AP credit for either) and take some Bio/Psych/Philosophy classes instead for the CBS major/minor. She would still take CS160/170, Math 61/70 etc.

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@Mastadon I asked about the No Major option at the CS session yesterday and one professor said he just learned about it a couple days before, and two others were pretty dismissive of the idea. A student said she thought it was really just for kids who transfer in and would have trouble meeting the distribution requirements, and that she hadn’t heard about anyone using this option.

Frankly I got a pretty disappointing vibe from Engineering folks about A&S CS majors. I spoke with one prof who didn’t understand why someone wouldn’t want to take the ES distribution requirements, and also indicated that you couldn’t take upper level CS courses without taking ES 3 for example. But I don’t think this is actually true for CS.

D enrolled last night. She is really excited but I am a bit wary, which is fine because I am not the one going to school.

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@Ormdad “Frankly I got a pretty disappointing vibe from Engineering folks about A&S CS majors.”

In my experience, this is true at virtually every school. The Engineering department tends to view it as a signal that you are interested in coding, but can’t handle the rigor of engineering.

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@Much2learn I am just trying to figure out how an Engineering student can minor in Cognitive and Brain Sciences without taking summer courses. It seems virtually impossible coming from the school of Engineering.

Tufts markets its Engineering school as differentiated because it exists in a “LAC-like” setting. If 2-3 breadth requirements are the extent of this, I think it is misleading. Most top CS programs are not ABET accredited by default, and allow for depth of study in CS as well as a minor or double major in another field. It just does not seem possible at Tufts without a large number of overlapping requirements.

I do have to say, however, that the CS major requirements in A&S are rather weak. Probably because of the significant foundation and distribution requirements.

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@ormdad -

There is quite a bit of overlap between CS/Machine learning and Cog/Brain Science.

I think this works:

For Core Requirements:

Take PSY09 & PSY32 as free electives

Petition to have either ES56, EE104, BME141 or BIO132 replace PSY31 (it makes no sense to take two statistics courses and the engineering versions are more rigourous - although they may not include use of SPSS) or maybe try to get PSY31 to count as the engineering stats course.

For the IIA requirement:

CD51 or PSY28 can count as Social Science Distribution

For the IIB requirement:

CS131 will count as a CS elective and is the base for machine learning

For the IIC Requirement:

PHIL3 counts as Humanities Distribution

For the III requirement:

She can take 3 courses from “group C” that will count as CS electives (several are machine learning)

PSY 80 (group A) or PHIL 38 (group D) count as Social Sience Distribution

Since your daughter is interested in both Music and Cognition, PSY80 could be very interesting for her - Tufts is one of the top schools in the world in this area as well as Cognitive and Brain Sciences in general.

http://www.brainpickings.org/2011/03/21/must-read-books-music-emotion-brain/
(Note Patel is Tufts, Pinker is Harvard) Also Google Ray Jackendorf, Daniel Dennett, Maryanne Wolf

http://www.quora.com/What-are-the-must-take-classes-within-the-Cognitive-and-brain-science-major-at-Tufts

The Senior Design Project in the area of Machine Learning would probably count as PSY195

Tufts directing one of the most interesting research projects in this area in partnership with RPI and Brown (teaching robots morals)
http://now.tufts.edu/news-releases/teaching-robots-right-wrong

That leaves:
2 Humanities, Arts or Social Science distribution requirements (can be used for Art, Music)
3 Breadth (can be used for Entrepreneurial Leadership, Art, Music)

Here is how you search for courses that meet distribution requirements

http://uss.tufts.edu/registrar/Attribute%20search.pdf

Good Luck!

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And Tufts is also doing research on teaching pre-kindergartners to program (partnering with MIT on Scratch Jr.)

http://ase.tufts.edu/devtech/

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@Mastadon- this is helpful as always. We’ve mapped some of this out so we know it’s possible, but as you say CBS has so much overlap that it and Math are probably the only Majors where a double major is feasible. Even a minor seems difficult.

I also saw that the minor in CBS requires that at least 5 classes must be in departments different from the student’s major. I did not see this for the Major but I assume it holds for a Double major.

Also I read somewhere that PSYC1 is now required as a prerequisite for PSYC9 (can’t find it now) as opposed to just being strongly recommended, so this adds to the non-engineering course load. AP Psych was not offered otherwise she would have taken it and may have placed out.

The point I was trying to make is that a Tufts CS grad probably has less opportunity to experiment with A&S/humanities than other top CS programs embedded in Engineering schools, because it is ABET accredited. And this is really counter to how they are marketing the school. What if a CS student wanted to minor in Japanese Studies or IR? Probably not possible without taking summer courses.

This is mostly a philosophical discussion, my Daughter is happy to be enrolling and is excited to be in Engineering. But if she had the opportunity to attend Brown, there’s no question that the flexibility of the Open Curriculum would be more attractive. And no one (except other Ivy grads) questions the rigor of a CS degree from Brown, as far as I can tell.

Thanks!

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@ormdad - the framework I provided is for a double major Comp Sci/Cog Sci If Psych 1 is required you burn another Social Science slot, leaving one HASS slot and three breadth slots for other courses.

What is interesting is that all the courses for the minor in entrepreneurial studies are classified as eng HASS/social sciences - which begs the question of why they need to be broken out separately in the breadth requirement - so this needs to be verified.

What is also interesting is that the difference between a cog sci double major and a cog sci minor appears to be only one course (due to the Comp sci overlap and “5 course” rule). Note that the spirit of the 5 course rule is that Cog Sci is intended to be an interdisciplinary major/minor, so taking too many courses within a discipline defeats that intent.

What this means is that in theory your daughter may be able to fit an ABET Comp Sci Major, a Cog Sci Minor and an Entrepreneurial Leadership Minor into 38 courses or bump it up to a double major for 39 courses. But there is no room for art/music courses. 39 courses means taking 4 courses first semester freshman year and 5 every other semester.

Some people take 5 every semester and some people have taken 6 courses in a semester and some come in with AP credit. In general, I would be careful about loading up on coursework, because there is more to college learning than the portion you get out of coursework.

Another possibility is to explore whether or not any of the Cog Sci classes could be counted as the Natural Science Elective.

Note that I say “in theory” because this program is wound up so tight with requirements that there is a reasonable probability of schedule conflicts.

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Minors range from 5-7 courses (with multidisciplinary minors such as Cog Sci being 7) There is no minor in IR because as defined at Tufts, it is extremely multidisciplinary with lots of requirements.

Note that Computer Science has the fewest Engineering requirements of any ABET accredited major at Tufts. It should easily fit any Humanities, Arts, or Social Sciences (HASS) minor. You can use the 1 SS elective, the 1 H elective, the 3 HASS electives and the 2 free electives as well as the 3 breadth electives (i.e. 10 total) toward a minor or second major. For reference, a “single discipline” major typically consists of 10 courses.

Other ABET accredited majors (such as Computer Engineering) are more challenging because they have more requirements and as a result they eliminate the breadth electives to keep the total course count at 38. Minoring in Japanese (or other languages) is made easier by the fact that engineers were considered when designing the language minors.

http://ase.tufts.edu/grall/documents/languageMinorEngineering.pdf

Requiring 1 SS, 1 H and 3 HASS electives forces engineers out of the pure engineering domain. I believe that the number of liberal arts distribution requirements (which includes the “A” in HASS) is somewhat rare in the world of ABET accredited programs. Combining these liberal arts distribution requirements with the 2 free electives facilitates minoring in a liberal arts discipline - even in the more rigorous ABET Engineering majors.

Of course, these requirements have an opportunity cost. You can’t take as many pure engineering courses, which is not the right fit for some aspiring engineers.

Offering fun intro to engineering courses (that fulfill science distrubution requirements for liberal arts students) as well as offering fun interdisciplinary minors (that cross the boundaries of engineering and liberal arts) helps to draw liberal arts students into engineering.

Music and the Art of Engineering is a highly recommended intro engineering course that maps into an area of interest for your daughter

http://engineering.tufts.edu/docs/ES93IntroEngFall2014.pdf

as does the minor in Music Engineering

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akgJSzh5mnY

I believe all this consistent with the marketing message…

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D1 had an A&S CS major and a humanities minor. AP credit was a huge help in freeing time in her schedule for the minor. But she started at Tufts intending to major in IR, so there was a certain amount of trying different courses and departments. She also had several friends who started the major late in sophomore year, which did require some heavy course loads and some summer coursework. Based on all this, I’d argue that a student who comes in wanting to do A&S CS and a non-tech minor can do so without summer courses.

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@ormdad Here is a new research effort in computers/Cog Sci your daughter might want to know about…

http://www.army.mil/article/151303/Natick__Tufts_team_up_to_advance_cognitive_science/