<p>I hope this question is not old hat. My son is a junior, and it's looking like Brave New World for the freshman of 2013 in terms of GPA to kids getting admitted to college. The 10 or so universities with great music programs seem to mostly have 4.0 gpa's or higher for average admittance. He and mom are pretty bewildered as to how to pick any "safety" schools or "match schools". Son has a 3.9something. They all seem like reach schools, and what if they all are? We live in California, which is having classes/admission cuts like crazy at public colleges. Any advice for how to find a couple "safety" colleges that don't have mediocre music programs. Son is a very good violinist, thinks he wants to major in composition, but thinks he may screw up his chances if he just sends composition portfolio versus doing violin audition. He also enjoys violin performance (has studied violin since age four). A number of the good schools will not let you send both - they will only pre-screen you on one or the other. On which does he have a better chance (or is there no way to tell)? He is almost ,I'd say, a conservatory-level player (spot-on intonation and great facility), but has only won 1 concerto competition, and has always gone to public schools. So, how incredibly well must you play violin audition to get into: USC, UCLA, Jacobs School Indiana, UofMichigan, Northwestern, UCIrvine, UCSB, Wisconsin-Madison (he does not want to live in Texas). We don't know what he is up against out there.
Thanks much for any advice on safety schools that are also great schools to go to.</p>
<p>Don’t be confused by the UC’s. UCLA requires the minimum GPA required of all the UC’s —they still go by the audition as long as you make the minimum requirement(my guess is that he is fine with a 3.9). Although that audition seems to get more competitive every year(UCI and UCSB are not quite as competitive as UCLA and USC)… I would encourage you to consult with current faculty before the end of this quarter. If you do not live in So Cal, why not make a trip down to consult with faculty at UCI, UCSB, UCLA and USC all in the same trip?
And, of course, as has been mentioned over and over…there are no real “safeties” in music.</p>
<p>I really can’t answer the questions about composition but I can address some of your other points. As for the top academic schools, your son’s GPA will not be an issue so much as his “whole package”–scores, ECs, his essays, and other factors. For that level of school, there is no guarantee of admission, even with a 4.0 unweighted GPA and perfect test scores. So apply to several and also consider schools like Bard. </p>
<p>For auditioned conservatories, there are no safety schools. I have deduced, from anecdotal evidence, that if you apply to IU Jacobs, your chances for admission and scholarship are better if you do one of the earlier audition dates (they accept on a rolling basis.) You might want to add Temple’s Esther Boyer School to your list. It’s a bit easier (I think) to get into and your son would get an automatic tuition merit scholarship for his GPA. I’m sure you will receive lots of other excellent advice here.</p>
<p>I don’t think it’s really a question of whether it’s easier to admitted on violin or composition - but more on what he passionately wants to devote four or five years of his undergraduate life to. The grades are fine for all those schools if he’s applying as a music major. They won’t keep him out if the music school wants him in.</p>
<p>Why not apply for both composition and performance? It will increase his chances for admission and for scholarship. If he is admitted for both at a school he may have to drop one of them, but I’d cross that bridge when you get there.</p>
<p>Thanks, glassharmonica - I had not thought of Temple and will look into it. I also assume, from your reply, that you think my son might have a stronger chance at Bard.
I think musicamusica makes sense that my son will have to try to see if these southern Cal schools will review his playing while he’s still a junior, or he won’t know if he has a strong chance. Also, in reply to Woodwinds, there are a few schools where he can’t apply as double major or double degree, but I do know that at USC you can send in a long written request of reasons for wanting to double major and they will consider it. Since he is 16, he hasn’t yet figured out which he wants to devote his undergrad life to.
I would really appreciate if folks keep posting ideas for “safety” schools (even though that is a bit of a silly concept, as mentioned).</p>
<p>Just a warning that Bard Conservatory is not a safety school by any stretch of the imagination. If applying only to the college, then it is certainly within the OP’s academic range. </p>
<p>I also do not think it would enhance anyone’s chances for admission to apply to a college both for composition and performance - often a composer will be expected to perform anyway (depends on the program) and must audition on an instrument. But it is more likely to be discouraged, than encouraged (ask cellocompmom,) to double major in both disciplines.</p>
<p>Parent Violinist, Sent you a p.m.</p>
<p>From your post, I am not clear on whether your son wants to go to conservatory/music school, for a BM, or a college/university, for a BA. I saw that UCLA does have composition and performance concentrations w/in the music major, but it is not a BM. Many of the other programs you mention are BM degrees. The difference is that in a BM program, the majority of classes will be in music.</p>
<p>The Peabody Institute site used to have a great piece on making choices between BA and BM and majoring in music in general. Don’t know it if is still there, but if it is, it might be helpful.</p>
<p>I often recommend a book entitled “Creative Colleges”, which can be found on Amazon, that lists all the schools in the country with good music programs- both BA and BM. </p>
<p>There are also double degree and double major options. Double degrees include a BA/BM program (Bard, Oberlin, Tufts) and BA/MM program (Harvard, for one).</p>
<p>Does your son have other interests, meaning academics? Does he want to spend most of his time in music classes?</p>
<p>Some conservatories/music schools will actually require composers to audition on an instrument, because they are expected to contribute to the school by playing in ensembles. Some only have a composition or instrumental audition, not both.</p>
<p>For conservatories/music schools, composer applicants submit portfolios of 2-5 pieces, often for prescreening first, and the audition is often a (placement) theory exam and an interview with questions about the works submitted. Of course, you know what an instrumental audition involves.</p>
<p>For many colleges and universities, some with excellent music departments, no audition or interview is required whatsoever, but it can help to submit an arts supplement with a CD and scores, or DVD, with a music resume and extra letters of recommendation from music teachers.</p>
<p>It sounds to me as if your son will have many options for safeties. But first, he probably will want to have a clear idea of what he wants. Tell him to look at websites, courses offered, faculty, and also, at colleges/universities, how many classes would be in music, what the distribution requirements are and so on. (My daughter chose a BA program where half her courses are in music, which is higher than most, and where distribution requirements were also lower, at 8 “gen ed” classes.)</p>
<p>I think you need to survey the general lay of the land before getting into specific school choices, unless there is a reason for staying in CA. Even then, there are some schools you may not yet know about. Once your son knows whether he wants to do almost all music with a BM or wants something broader with a BA, people here can help with suggestions.</p>
<p>It is possible to apply in both violin performance and composition to every school on your list; simply don’t apply to double major, but submit your prescreening tape and composition portfolio in two separate audition processes. That is what my son did and you are welcome to PM me for more information.</p>
<p>In terms of applying to highly selective universities and colleges, having strong arts supplements in more than one area is only a bonus at admissions time, as others here have said. </p>
<p>You have great advice here from a variety of people. It is hard to make safety school recommendations as one person’s safety could be someone else’s reach, but in your shoes, I would not be dissuaded by the scary competition. If there is somewhere your son really wants to try for, it is always worthwhile submitting the application. </p>
<p>In terms of assessing your son’s level of violin playing at the schools you mention, his current teacher ought to be able to give you some guidance there and also to make recommendations for studios that would be compatible. Now would be the time to start that investigatory process and make the trips to play for potential studios.</p>
<p>Visiting the different schools will also help your son sort out what he wants (hopefully, mine never decided until the very last minute): college v conservatory, urban v suburban campus, composition and/or violin.</p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
<p>stringkeymom- thanks indeed because we would really appreciate your details on how to submit double supplemental applications with materials as your son did. when I asked music department admin here in Calif., I feel they deliberately withheld this idea. Also, UMichigan music website said something about we discourage double applying to increase one’s chances." ANyway, that is what son wants to do. Now if I can figure out how to send a pm (novice here) to you.</p>
<p>parentviolinist - if he does decide he wants to major in composition - he may find he wants to apply to a different set of schools than if he’s applying as a violinist. For composition- for the UC’s he should be looking at UCLA, UCSB’s College of Creative Studies (not the music school) and possibly UCSD - although that is very grad student oriented. I don’t know of anyone who’s applied to Irvine for composition.</p>
<p>Do you have a sense of how developed he is as a composer, or an idea of what kind of program and teacher would suit him best? Has he gone to any prep or summer programs as a comp student - and does he have a private teacher? Be sure he’s had pieces performed and recorded by the beginning of the fall for his applications. This summer will be the time to work on making that happen, or early fall. In terms of ‘safety’ there are composition programs which accept many more students than others - although they often get more applicants, as well. For instance, Michigan accepts at least 15 applicants - looking to get a class of 8-12. USC aims for a class of 8 as well. Northwestern does not accept as many for composition - they only are looking to add a few students each year. Then there are programs which only accept 1-2 students, maybe with one on the wait list. So there’s a definite range. Some composition programs are looking for students with established resumes who could just as easily be entering a graduate program - others don’t expect the students to be developed at all and don’t even offer private lessons for the first year or two.</p>
<p>If you’re in Southern California I highly recommend the LA Phil’s young composer program, and for Northern California either the SF Conservatory prep program, or the John Adams Young Composers Program in Berkeley.</p>
<p>SpiritManager - thank you. I am floored - how do you know all this stuff? It’s terrific, and my son will definitely take your suggestions. One thing - can you tell me why you recommend UCSB College Creative Studies instead of their BM in composition? Wouldn’t it look better to grad schools to show the BM degree? Does the Creative Studies department kind of separate you from ensemble or instrument lesson opportunities? BTW, my son does take private comp. lessons in the summers and has been working on piano. Too bad he doesn’t know whether to major in violin or composition at this point.
Thank you so much - it really helps, and I may ask for your expert help this fall.</p>
<p>Everything I’ve heard in the past about UCSB was that the serious composers were usually in the College of Creative Studies. But, truthfully we never even explored the regular BM degree there - so I could be misleading you and it’s just fine.</p>
<p>How do I know all this? Well, as everyone here will tell you I’ve been around on this forum for quite some time! And we did a lot of research when my son was applying. (He’s in his 3rd year at Bard Conservatory.) However, things do change, of course, from year to year - students admitted, composition professors, even the aesthetics of a department - so already my info is starting to age…</p>
<p>I agree with others, looking for ‘safeties’ is difficult, for a number of reasons. Yes, there are music programs that aren’t quite as competitive as the top music performance schools, but even there getting in has its elements of luck or serendipity from what I can tell…</p>
<p>One note about the GPA and getting admitted, I think there is a lot of FUD out there (fear, uncertainty, and doubt), in part generated by the hoopla over how bad college admissions are and also, quite frankly, people not understanding the difference between students getting in who are there for academics versus music. High school guidance counselors are some of the worst on this, most of them simply don’t have a clue or read what someone wrote 30 years ago…</p>
<p>There are some things you need to remember about music programs…</p>
<p>-If you are talking a stand alone conservatory, places like Juilliard, NEC, Curtis and so forth, the GPA and test scores are not a factor at all or are very minor (a lot of parents of kids who go to Juilliard, for example, find out pretty quickly that all those AP classes their kids took don’t amount to much, either in admissions or once you are in there…). About the only thing grades can do is be a negative, and that would be a kid who was a complete screw up, not someone with a 3.9.</p>
<p>-For music programs in universities, I am pretty well convinced that they don’t apply the same standards they do for the academic students. It doesn’t mean I think grades don’t matter or that if someone is a talented music student if they want to go to U Mich, USC or other top music programs in universities, that they don’t have to keeep their grades up, if they are way below the curve of typical applicants it may stop them from being admitted, and there is some evidence that having higher grades can help with merit (academic) scholarships. However, I am also pretty well convinced that they give credence to music students applying for the amount of work music takes…a kid wanting to enter academically with a 3.9 might be denied, whereas a music student with a 3.6 might get in. Why? because they understand what serious music study means, the admissions department knows ( believe me, the music school lets them know, and then some!) that to get to the level to get into a top music school, this isn’t a kid playing the instrument as a hobby before college, this isn’t a kid practicing an hour a day and getting by, and that the dedication it takes to make the entrance level for music means they are likely not to have the 4.0 GPA, the 8 aps and so forth that seem to be de rigeur at top programs…in other words, they make allowances, much as admissions departments make allowances for kids from disadvantaged backgrounds and so forth who have shown real achievement, likewise they know serious music students have a tradeoff to make. In other words, I wouldn’t compare your S to academic admits at the schools within universities, I would compare it against what typical music students who get in get…and a 3.9 is nothing to sneeze at IMO as a music student, that is pretty damn solid…if he was a 3.5 or a 3.2, you might need to be concerned.</p>
<p>What I would be more concerned about is how good your son is on violin, that IMO will probably be the more limiting factor. Violin is incredibly competitive (not that anything in music is an easy admit) and the level is staggering (want to get an idea? Do a google search on the Menuhin competition, find the website and look at the performing level of the kids in the Junior category, it gives you an idea of what it is like out there…I realize these are a small number of the top violin students out there, but there are a lot of kids who if not at this level, aren’t far behind). I don’t know who your son’s teacher is or what level they are at, but it may be wise to get an evaluation (or maybe more then 1) from teachers at the kind of music schools you might want to apply to, to see where you S is, what he needs to work on and so forth. Competitions don’t necessarily mean much, there are even national competitions out there that quite frankly don’t mean much and there are a lot of them, so it may not mean much in terms of level of playing. Even if your S had a 4.0 and a 2300+ SAT, if his playing is not up to snuff, he won’t get into the music school, and given the competition out there I would be more worried about that at this point, hence the evaluation. </p>
<p>As far as violin versus composition, that depends on your son’s passion, I would not say either is an easy admit. Composition is very different then a performance degree, and it is as difficult an admit (maybe more, depending on the program). If your S is going to go into music, he better have a passion for it, it is an arduous journey and one of the more difficult fields to ‘make it’ in…</p>
<p>My daughter plans to apply as a performance major on two woodwinds. Not as a double major, but as another poster said, she can fill out two applications, audition on both, and then decide, based on admissions and scholarship offers, which instrument she will major on and which one she will take private lessons on. You are correct that many schools do not offer up this information. They like to say that a student should just concentrate on one or that they cannot do both. Playing two has increased my daughter’s chances. She has won more concerto competitions because she gets to audition twice. I think it is more a matter that it is too costly for the conservatory to give one student private lessons on two instruments, not that it isn’t possible to do two well. My daughter doesn’t need a degree on both, but she will study with top teachers on both instruments. Have your son fill out applications for both violin and composition and see where it takes you.</p>
<p>One practical note about applying separately for composition and violin - not all the audition dates are the same. Could mean two trips to some of the schools… or having to choose which information sessions to attend if they do happen to be on the same day. Again, cellocompmom probably has real life experience for that.</p>
<p>Thanks, all. Musicprnt - thanks for the Menuhin competition link - I recognized one of the senior kids from my town. I watched a few, and I think my son pretty much plays at that level, though I certainly hope most of those kids apply to conservatories and not universities, or yikes. The Menuhin competition seems “unfair” in that they have kids in the senior category that are four years apart in age, yet my son’s birth year would put him in the youngest side of the senior category there.<br>
Anyway, do get back to double supplements, I’m concerned some UC’s seems to have an electronic supp. that you enter a code number that they send you once they receive your general app. marked music major. I’m concerned that once you enter the code number and fill out the electronic supplement with say “composition” audition stuff, that you can’t go back in to a second supplement app. with that code number. I’ll guess I’ll find out in September when they put this suppl. app online, or I may call ahead. Thanks all!</p>
<p>I would definitely contact UCLA. You didn’t used to be allowed to apply to both the School of the Arts and the rest of the college - and, if you were rejected from the School of the Arts you were denied admission at UCLA regardless of your stellar academic qualifications - so they may be very strict about not allowing a student to try multiple applications in the School of Music? Definitely one for the school itself to answer!</p>
<p>And with any large university, anything that CAN go wrong with an electronic application, WILL go wrong with an electronic application. I would echo Spiritmanager’s caviat: call them.</p>