Applying to Harvard or MIT early?

Applying to College
1

Hi, I don’t usually go on CC so please forgive me if this is the wrong sub.

My “dream school,” at least right now, is Harvard. Most of the colleges I visited like Princeton, Yale, Harvard all blended in and there weren’t any defining characteristics that stood out, or maybe I just wasn’t perceptive enough. Anyways, my main motivation for wanting to go to Harvard is to be able to take Math 55, and I think the liberal arts atmosphere and leadership culture will help me grow socially and make friends with different types of people beyond science and math kids. (I don’t know if these are good reasons?)

My hesitation for choosing Harvard early is that a kid who made bio camp and Siemens nationals got rejected there (got into Stanford, MIT) and another really good math kid who made USAMO like five times and MIT Primes got rejected too (got into Yale, Stanford, MIT lol). I’d consider myself a strong science kid; I made chem camp this year and USAJMO last year.

Essay wise, I think I have a bunch of great ideas, and with enough effort can make my voice shine through (although my voice might sound bad…) but it’s easy to come up with seemingly good ideas, but infinitely more difficult to delve deeper into your personality, zooming in on a few specific traits is a lot harder than covering a broad smattering of anecdotes and things.

Another reason I want to do Harvard REA is because of the, perhaps nonexistent, advantage to applying early. I know recruited athletes and legacies comprise the bulk of those accepted in this round, but perhaps by applying early I can signal to Harvard that I’d choose them over MIT? They might not read that deeply into applying early, so I’d like to hear your thoughts.

Thanks!

tl;dr: I made chem camp and USAJMO so would applying to Harvard early give me a bigger advantage than the normal, miniscule REA boost as it lets them know MIT isn’t my top choice?

Hopefully I don’t sound too arrogant in thinking I’m some academic all star lol

2

Im a fellow student, so take my words with a grain of salt :slight_smile:
The ea advantage at MIT is quite low as well; so try not to take that into consideration. Athletes and Legacies do not make up most of the EA round and there is truly an advantage to applying early. Also, i have read that harvard admits approximately 50% of its students because they have hooks, and 50% based off of pure academic merit. So if you think you fall into one of these categories, go for harvard. However, MIT takes a more holistic view on admissions. (not that harvard doesn’t) Also, you may want to consider that harvard’s early action is restrictive, while MIT’s is not. If you are male, you will have a low chance at MIT wether it be EA or Regular, since they give a much higher preference to female (since so few women are in stem). This isn’t the case at Harvard.

3

With colleges on that level they’re going to be rejecting tons of academic all-stars. It’s what they do. Don’t let that deter you from applying if it’s your favorite.

The argument goes that there isn’t really a boost going SCEA with Harvard and the like because the seemingly better acceptance rate is actually composed of the higher admittance rate for athletes and legacies/development cases. I don’t know if that’s true.

But I agree. If they are your favorite you should apply there early. If nothing else, it gives you two shots at the target since the worst I see for you is deferral in the first round.

4

Spend more of your mental energy finding reach and match schools.

Then, pick the one you really want to go to for ED. But realize that only ~5% are chosen…and be delighted with your match and safety schools.

5

From what I understand and have read, neither Harvard nor MIT have substantial ED/REA benefits, even when compared to other Ivys. So I guess the answer to your question would be that it doesn’t make a difference. However, I’m also a student and don’t have much credibility; hopefully someone who worked in admissions can weigh in.

6

There are many great things about Harvard. One of the things that is not great about them is that they (IMO) have the attitude that Harvard is everyone’s top choice. So that is not a reason to apply to Harvard early.

MIT out-and-out states this:

https://mitadmissions.desk.com/customer/portal/articles/1421626-early-action-ea-regular-action-ra-

Harvard, in slightly different language has said the same thing.

7

“With colleges on that level they’re going to be rejecting tons of academic all-stars. It’s what they do. Don’t let that deter you from applying if it’s your favorite.”

Yeah but we’re if we’re talking Intel/Siemens winners (or whatever it’s now called), medalists at IMO competitions, we’re not talking tons here, we’re talking a very select group, maybe 50 to a 100. And Harvard does accept a pretty large percentage of these, around 25%, compared to their RD rate. Think of them as academic nobel laureates, not all-stars.
They won’t get in to all the colleges they apply but it would be surprising if they didn’t get into one of HYPSM and Cal Tech.

“Then, pick the one you really want to go to for ED. But realize that only ~5% are chosen…and be delighted with your match and safety schools.”

The OP has mentioned five schools of interest and they’re all EA or SCEA and if OP is a top STEM applicant is not going to apply ED anywhere. They usually don’t.

8

Everyone wants to go to Harvard because it is at the top of the pyramid. Sorry but you seem immature and starstruck if you think the others–Yale and Princeton --they all just blended together. You are going for brand name with no real concrete rationale for your dream school. “Anyways, my main motivation for wanting to go to Harvard is to be able to take Math 55, and I think the liberal arts atmosphere and leadership culture will help me grow socially and make friends with different types of people beyond science and math kids.” You could go to any one of 100 schools and have the same result. Your essays are not going to get you into Harvard. You better start strategizing where you have a reasonable chance of getting admitted and pick a couple of reach schools. Maybe one of those is Harvard but dont lose opportunities at other great schools because you have decided your dream school is Harvard.

9

If Harvard is where you want to go apply SCEA, you might get accepted.

10

Okay thanks everyone. There’s a big difference between zero benefit and a minuscule benefit, with regards to applying SCEA. In one case that benefit has the potential to increase, and in the other case it’s absolute. And, it seems like, unfortunately, there is zero benefit. Honestly I’ll probably still have some hope in my heart to justify applying early to Harvard, though. I like to think myself as open minded, but some things take a while for me to accept :confused:

Yeah, @theloniusmonk I’m not going to ED anywhere, and anyways I’m lucky enough to live in a state with amazing public schools that are my match.

@Center I am immature. I’m a high school senior. I’ve never been into school spirit and I’m bad at figuring out what types of environments are best for me. I feel like at any school I could carve out a place for me, Every school has unique characteristics, but they’re hard to find unless you actually attend the school for a while. Unfortunately, we don’t have that opportunity. Obviously people have more concrete reasons than wanting to take a difficult class, and my other reason could be applicable to a lot of other schools, but at least they’re my reasons. I suppose I shouldn’t be defensive when I asked “are these good reasons?” in my original post, so sorry about that.

Also, I already have my match school, and it’s a school I’d be happy attending, after the disappointment subsides. More than 75 kids a year are from my school, so I’m not worrying about that right now.

11

No, not a good reason, since this goal can be accomplished at any number of schools.

Just to give you a reality check (beyond the 95% rejection rate) - every Fall, 50-60 freshman start off in Math 55a. Within a week, the number drops to 35-50. Within 3 weeks, it settles into the final number of ~20. Also, be aware that content of Math 55 is highly dependent upon the instructor, and unlike other courses, the same instructor does not always teach Math 55 every year. While Noam Elkies has taught it for the past couple of years, Joe Harris is teaching it next year, and who knows who will teach it if/when you go to Harvard. Personally, I would not apply SCEA (or even apply at all) simply for 2 courses.

12

@skieurope If somehow I got accepted, and then dropped out of 55, Harvard’s freshman math sequence still looks a lot more appealing than a school like MIT’s. MIT offers more freedom to take different classes, but I think since I 've built problem solving skills from olympiads, but don’t have experience with advanced topics beyond real analysis/linalg, the structured sequence at Harvard would be better at getting me started?

Also, I’ve heard that Harvard has crazy grade inflation which is really nice because you can challenge yourself to take harder grad level math classes, and even if you do poorly, at least your GPA doesn’t suffer too much which keeps your options open. I want to study math both because I love it, and because I think it’s the most effective at building problem solving skills. I’m still not sure what I want to do with my life, so studying math and getting smarter while experiencing different things in college will help me the most, whether I want to go to medical school (which grade inflation is good for?), create an impact on the world through a startup(s), etc.

But, I guess it’s not wise to tell Harvard that you want to go there because they have easy classes lol

When I was at chem camp I didn’t make many deep friendships because (a) it was only two weeks long but more importantly (b) I don’t think my personality fit that well. I’m a big math and science guy, but I also really like writing in my journal, reading philosophy on SEP, etc. I suppose that’s not something special. Idk, it’s just that whenever I go to a math or chem thing I’ll make a few close friends, but not as many as I’d like. Which is why I want to take a chance at Harvard. (I know it seems like Harvard and MIT are the only schools in the world, but I really like the Boston/Cambridge area)

And another thing is I think Harvard students are more likely to have worked menial jobs at Krogers or McDonalds? When I tell STEM kids I’m working at Starbucks a lot of them think it’s a waste of time/below them.

Hopefully I don’t sound too pretentious :frowning:

If you had the time to read this, do you think these are some better reasons? Or are they still not well thought out, generic?

13

At Harvard you can take whatever math classes you want. That doesn’t mean you will be successful at them. I agree with skieurope that wanting to take two classes is not a good reason to go to Harvard. That said there are lots of good reasons to go to Harvard.

I think for 95 per cent of the kids who apply EA to Harvard it is there top choice. However that is not true for everyone. I have personally talked to few kids who applied EA and Harvard was not their top choice. I am of the belief that applying EA does give you an advantage in some small percentage of cases. I think if you really want to go there you should apply EA

14

Running some numbers would be helpful in understanding the odds. At MIT about 70% of the 1450 acceptances go to domestic unhooked applicants while at Harvard only about 30% of the 2050 do. So the number is around 1015 at MIT vs 615 at Harvard for the unhooked. If you factor in MIT being a STEM school the numbers for the stem profile applicants are roughly 900 vs 350. Further breaking down the numbers for each gender you would have 450 vs 175 for both EA and RD. By my observation-- and my kid had the good fortunate of being accepted to both this year and I had attended several admit events at each school—MIT typically accept all of the top 20 achievers of each gender in various STEM fields while at Harvard only 50% or less are accepted. For example, among four IMO members two were accepted at Harvard but all were accepted at MIT and attending. For stem kids they probably find MIT more at home anyway. I don’t think Harvard standard is higher its just space is more limited. I would agree with others OP should REA Harvard as this is his/her dream school and it seems to offer some statistical advantage.

15

I don’t think you can generalize that Stem kids find MIT a better fit than Harvard. I think it is probably the opposite. Lots of kids like the diversity that Harvard has to offer. Also just because you are good at math at the IMO level doesn’t mean you will be good in college at it or that it will be your life long goal. Additionally I don’t know whether it is true or not but MIT has a reputation for its math classes being easier than Harvards.

16

A few random thoughts.

You should be able to make USAMO this year, not sure why you were bothering with JMO unless you thought you had a realistic chance of being a winner. You are a rising junior I assume?

Math 216-218 at Princeton is fantastic as well, and I get the sense that there is less competition among the tippy top math kids there for admission.

I think you’d be a strong candidate for MIT based on my experience with talented math competition kids and their results. As you probably know, the lore is that 80% of USAMO qualifiers are accepted at MIT (probably a bit of an exaggeration, but not much).

Congrats on JMO and chem, and best of luck!

17

@jzducol Thanks for running the numbers! It seems like MIT does basically “collect” all the MOP, physics/chem/bio/cs campers and a lot of the RSI kids. RSI kids might have a better chance at Harvard because they seem to attract a bunch of the research kids. Anyways, these awards are a huge part of their/my application, but they don’t reduce the importance of essays by much, I think. The “standards” for essays are probably lower, but they still want an interesting, thoughtful kid. Of course, this might just be all nonsense guesswork, but hopefully not.

@SatchelSF Yeah, I hope I can make USAMO this senior year. Junior year (2017-18) I focused on chem so my math ability dropped from 11->6 on AIME. But, I’ll have a lot of time this year to focus on math, potentially spending 3+ hours to comfortably qualify, and hopefully solve 1 and 4. Princeton’s math department also is amazing, obviously. It seems like 215/217/218 cover what 55a/b do, except for algebra? Anyways, if I’m lucky enough to attend any of the schools HYPSM or even my state school, which also has an excellent math department but not as many advanced undergrad classes, I’ll be able to learn math, which is all I want.

Yeah, it seems like 70%+ of USAMO qualifiers get in, I think the figure should be similar for JMO. But, anecdotally, some kids from my school/state haven’t gotten in, even when qualifying for multiple times. That’s put a reality check on my idea of USAMO being a golden ticket. People have been saying that since forever, but I didn’t quite believe them…

@collegedad13 From what I’ve read it seems like Harvard’s math department is focused at the top kids, those who are going to do well on Putnam. I guess I wouldn’t be considered one of them, as I took years to make usajmo and just don’t feel smart compared to them, but I’d like to give it a shot. I’m 99% sure I’m not going to become a math professor, as that’s insanely hard and I’m probably not cut out for a top PhD program. Math efficiently develops problem solving skills, which is what I’d like to do while I found out what I want to do in life :slight_smile:

18

Harvard SCEA is holistic. They take into account other info like first-gen, URM, grades, test scores, income, etc. I would recommend applying to URM if you have a hook. Talking to a Harvard admissions officer, SCEA is mainly to get “important classes.” This is legacies and athletes. Also, academic super stars. But they also want URM and first gens in SCEA and heavily favor URM and first gen in SCEA. Do you have a hook, because if so, you will probably get into SCEA? What’s the rest of your data?
PS: what summer program did you do junior year? Just curious as I did a summer program.

19

As an FYI, MIT is also holistic, as are most top colleges in the US.

You can’t make that claim. The only hook which will “probably get into SCEA” is recruited athlete, and their acceptance rate is high, in part, because they get a pre-screen before an application is submitted. Other hooks applying SCEA might get a boost by applying early, but it’s far from a sure thing. Also while many applicants accepted SCEA are hooked, many are not.

20

@ic3kreem Harvards math department doesn’t let kids in. The AOs do. That being said every year the AOs send some applications to the math department to review. The math department usually has two senior professors review them and they tell the AOs what they think of the prospective applicants qualifications. The math department is not looking for kids who will do well on the Putnam exam. They are generally looking for kids who could be future researchers or leaders in fields using math. Some of those kids took graduate level algebraic geometry while in high school for example.

skieurope gives good advice in post 18!!!