Applying to Ivies as a French high school student

Student Lounge International Students
1

<p>Hello,
Be warned, incoming long post, with lots of questions.</p>

<p>I'm from France, currently studying in high school. My dream is being able to study in an Ivy League college in the United States, or another "high ranked" university.
I did say "dream", however. That's because I don't know if my grades are actually competitive when translated to an American GPA. Does anyone know how I can compare our grading system (out of twenty) to the US GPA? I couldn't find any official ressources on the Web.
Moreover, should I convert my grades and then use the result on the Common App? Or should I just not complete the "GPA" section and let the admissions office figure it out?</p>

<p>I'm having a hard time filling out the Common Application.
I know that all necessary ressources are supposed to be available, but there is information that I'm supposed to provide that has no real equivalent in my country, or that I'm not aware about: for example, school counselor (I've never met one), college/university affiliated courses (I am not aware of any organism in my city which provides access to university courses, will it play against me?), the "courses I'm taking this year and their level (AP, IB) and credit value" (I don't even know what all of this means), the academic honors (do they mean at exams?)...
I'm really lost, I don't have a clue about where to start, how to fill this out.
I also think that they ask for all high school years, but in France, 9th grade isn't considered as part of high school. Should I include it whatsoever?
If I am restricted and not able to carry out everything the colleges ask for in the best ways (eg. not having honors...) because of my country's educational system, will it subsequently affect my chances of being accepted?</p>

<p>Now about admissions themselves.
First of all, how important are grades (be they SAT, TOEFL or high school scores) compared to the extracurriculars, essays and recommendations? Can the latter really help at all if I know alumnus and professors? Do I absolutely have to include a team sport in my extracurriculars? I have several extras which I am really passionate about, but I don't play sports at all. Is it bad, and will it play against me in any way?</p>

<p>If I didn't get accepted to my target schools on first try, I've thought about several alternatives and would like to know which one of them is the most advisable: taking a leap year, transfering after a year, or reapplying for the following semester. Taking a leap year would imply traveling and getting some real life experience.
Furthermore, is it true that the essay actually cuts it sometimes?
Like, even if grades are somewhat bad, the essay can make one admissible if it is authentic and interesting enough, and most of all, justifies that lack of good results? I don't personally have bad results, though I did in early high school grade. But in 11th grade, I worked much more, and my results became higher.
Is evolution taken into account, and will those mediocre grades I got during my freshman year give me less chances than someone who got great scores during all his high school years?</p>

<p>Wow, that was long, I suppose. Thank you very much if you took the time to read it.</p>

2

<p>First of all, you shouldn’t be filling out the common application if you intend to apply to an Ivy or another selective college - I assume you’d like to start Fall 2014 (or Fall 2015?)
Therefore the “new” common app will be posted in August and that’s the one you should be using.</p>

<p>Second, to translate your grades, divide the French grade by 3 for each class to create your weighted GPA. Unweighted is more complicated but typically a 14 in 3e, 13 in 2e, and 12 in 1e-Term = A, and go down one step for each letter. Then convert where A=4, A- = 3.7, B+ = 3.3, B=3. (3.00/B= la moyenne, roughly – a B is like a 9 in a course at the 1e/Term level).
This conversion is based on the national system whereby a certain percentage of students is allowed to reach a certain score in each country.</p>

<p>Your counselor will have to provide the above explanation along with your “bulletins” or (better, if it has been filled out) your Livret Scolaire.</p>

<p>All "s</p>

3

<p>@MYOS1634
Oh, ok. But I guess the new Common App won’t be that different from the one I have right now?</p>

<p>Oh, so you’re implicitly telling me that I have to include my grades from 3e. That’s pretty embarassing, and will definitely make my chances very low. I didn’t get horrible grades in all subjects, but still. Damn.
If I had re-taken (“redouble”) 10th grade and gotten great results, would my chances have been higher?
As for grade conversion, alright, that’s clear.</p>

<p>I’ll try to see if I can actually find a counselor, because up to now I didn’t have one.</p>

<p>Uhh… You mean I can mention 3e and 2nde in the “Honors” section? I don’t really get how it works, but alright.
If I understood well, IB/APs are subjects that you’re not required to take but choose to?
I’m in S (I guess it doesn’t change anything if you’re from S or ES?). So IB/APs would be the “Option math” or “Option Physics”?
12 and above at everything… You mean in class, not for the Bac? What if I scored 17 at some stuff and 9 at others? I thought so, the bac seemed important.
Again, are you saying that Ivies want an average of 14 for your whole year or just for the bac?</p>

<p>Well, if they indeed look at 3e scores and don’t take evolution that much into account, I think I’ll be rejected right away. But if I don’t try, I’ll be 100% sure to fail, so why not.</p>

<p>Well, I am taking a few (not a lot) extracurriculars that I find extremely interesting. I founded a small buisness, as an example. How about volunteering, internships and all that? Does it count as extracurriculars?</p>

<p>I get it.
The essay should reflect who I am personally, how I’ll contribute to the school, what are my achievements, goals, ambitions and what in my life made me choose this path, etc…? Basically I have to stand out amongst other essays.
I’m not. I have middle-eastern origins, but that is all. So that won’t count.
About obstacles in life, I don’t really know how you would define them and how serious they have to be to really have an influence on my essay, but there are some things that made me change drastically.</p>

<p>Okay, so my connections won’t help either. I thought a recommendations from a professor or an alum would be good, but apparently not. I’ll try to have convincing and persuasive letters of recommendation anyway.</p>

<p>Well, in ninth grade, I don’t quite remember, but I had behavior problems. My grades weren’t that horrible - I had excellent ones, and bad ones (in sports, for example), but overall I think they’re not good enough for me to get in, especially if you consider the fact that since I switched to a much more competitive high school in 2nde, my results didn’t improve that much (though I had no behavior problems).
So yeah, overall, I stand little to no chance with those grades. Hmm, I didn’t think it would be that bad.
What are my chances now? Taking a leap year and reapplying after Tle to acquire life experience? Transfering from a less reputable college? Or just try to get in an Ivy for graduate school?
I guess my results at the Bac, SAT, 11th and 12th grade won’t be able to make my application more competitive in the eyes of admission officers?
I guess I can forget Harvard, Stanford and all, but maybe I still stand a chance for less competitive Ivies such as Cornell…? Or am I being delusional now?</p>

<p>Ah, great, I’ll watch that. Even if it doesn’t depict everything right, it might be useful.
Yeah, I heard too that the French system was more competitive. Does that mean that S with Spe Maths will be useful in the application?
80% are less selective? I guess the 20% left is the Ivy League and the rest of the top tier colleges.</p>

<p>Thanks, that link seems interesting. I’ll take a look at Alexandre’s posts, too.
Thank you for your advice, even though it’s not as reassuring as I thought it would be… Haha.</p>

4

<p>

Your “counselor” for college application purposes can be any school official who has full access to your student file. International students often ask their principal or vice principal, or just another teacher. This person does not need to know you very well; they just need to add an ‘official’ perspective to your application: have you ever faced disciplinary actions at school? How do your grades compare to those of your classmates? How does your school compare to other schools in the country?</p>

<p>

The “lower Ivies” seem to be quite fond of international students who can pay the full fees. However, you’d have to be quite exceptional to qualify for admission with financial aid.</p>

<p>

Your personal essay is your main opportunity to show the human being behind your grades and test scores. Decide which image you’d like to portray of yourself and choose your essay topics accordingly. Are you a formerly isolated foster care kid who has found meaning in the arts? The child of well-connected parents who has taken full advantage of his many resources to promote a good cause? The next Albert Einstein?</p>

<p>Most applicants are well-served by a reflective essay that highlights one of their strengths and/or ambitions. Which attribute you’d like to highlight and which context you do it in are up to you. For example, you could demonstrate your resilience by writing about an abusive situation that you have survived, or you could demonstrate it by writing about some business success that you’ve worked hard for. Both approaches can work, but they portray different images of the same person.</p>

5

<p>i am in an exactly same position!11th grade in france. gpa doesnt exist but my moyenne is approx 14/20 . i am sure that i can score a 14+ on the baccalaureate. i have a couple of EC’s. expect to get a 1300/1600 on the sat. are:berkley,ucla,ucsd,bu,nyu acceptable colleges to apply to?</p>

<p>Sent from my GT-I9300 using CC</p>

6

<p>@b@r!um
Any school official? Oh, alright.
I’ll try to see the principal, or my main teacher. Thanks, I thought a high school counselor was, like, a specific guy who handled admissions and all that.
I understand… Never faced any disciplinary actions, I’m pretty high ranked but not the first - mainly because it’s one of the most competitive highschools in Paris. Do you think the admissions office will take that into account?</p>

<p>Ah, so if I can pay, they’ll let me in more easily. Okay. I guess that since schools like Harvard and MIT are need-blind for international students, it’s harder because of that?
But I can pay full tuition for Cornell and all. Maybe that’s going to be possible, after all.</p>

<p>Yeah, presenting myself, my interests, accomplishments and ambitions. That should be a good way to compensate for early high school too.
I don’t exactly know how I’d like to present myself yet, but what do you mean by “the next Einstein”? Just curious.</p>

<p>I understand. I should just be the most authentic possible while putting an emphasis on a part of me or my life that I find to be interesting or to really define me. I guess originality is a BIG factor, too…</p>

<p>I just spoke to a Harvard alumni I know, who told me that my mediocre 9th/10th grade marks were okay and could be compensated with extracurriculars and essays - especially ninth grade which apparently isn’t really that important. That’s reassuring.</p>

<p>@international96
I guess 14 is good, it’s an A approximately. So you seem to be good to go.
What are your EC’s?</p>

<p>Oh, and there’s something I don’t understand. Should you have A as an average (moyenne g</p>

7

<p>I was looking for a thread like this</p>

<p>do you think it’s a bad thing if I do a 1re ES but want to get a computer science degree at a university such as UC berkeley? I know that I stand little to no chance for MIT and Stanford though.
do they care about baccalaureate results at all?</p>

<p>and also, what do you think is the better between these two options:

  • getting into ES and getting excellent grades, while not having excellent grades prior to that, or;
  • retaking 10th grade (redoublement) to have excellent results and then go ES or S? do universities dislike it when students re-do a year?</p>

<p>considering that I’ve had mostly B’s, two or three A’s and maybe one C during 10th grade, I’d like to know if you think that really improving myself during 1re (which I’ll really do, up to now I didn’t work a lot, like barely an hour a day, but now I work much more) and Terminale can make it possible for me to get accepted at uc berkeley, ucsd or ucsb as an international undergraduate??</p>

8

<p>i am in the premiere es currently.
the last thing i advise you is to double your class(only do it if your moyenne is less then 11/20 and your are aiming for top 50 schools).if you want to do computer sciences definitely do a S.get your grades up as much as you can in the premiere if you had a bad seconde.colleges will see your improvement and thats something positive.</p>

9

<p>My moyenne is 12.8. But my moyenne in physics/chemistry is like, eight, so I don’t know if I can get in S… Why shouldn’t I double? Do top schools consider it as a bad thing?
I am aiming at top 50 schools… So you’re saying I have to double basically?</p>

<p>It’s good if colleges see improvement as positive, but will that improvement allow me to get into Berkeley, UPenn, UC San Diego and such universities?
If not, my only option is to double. I really, really want to go to such universities and willing to do anything</p>

10

<p>my advise after seeing your stats: double your class (dont know how top schools will look at this) or go to es , and dont major in computer sciences…if your having so much trouble in 2nde in the"matieres scientifiques" i dont think your grades are suddenly going to jump to a 15 in 1ere S even after doubling your class . or you should start studying 24/24 lol</p>

<p>Sent from my GT-I9300 using CC</p>

11

<p>Well before doubling, I’d like to know what top schools think of that.
Does ES really stop me from doing CS? Why is that?</p>

<p>I’m having trouble because I didn’t work, I only began working a few days ago in the whole year…</p>

12

<p>Quickly (no time for details now…)</p>

<p>Guys, one important thing when you cite colleges:
State universities (logically) serve that State’s students first, therefore 1° it’s very very hard to get in from abroad since 75-80% of a class must come from in-state and of course out of state students are admitted too and 2° you have to pay full price in most places.
For example, all public universities in California require that your parents have $55,000-60,000 in their bank account and since that’s 3 times the national average income for a French 2-parent family of 4, I’m not sure applying to them will do you much good if you don’t have the money.
Differentiate between public flagships and private colleges.</p>

<p>Second, there are excellent colleges that are called Liberal Arts Colleges and are essentially the equivalent of the French prépa. Like the prépas, their goal is to give you an intense academic experience that will lead you to a top graduate program.
You can look at these rankings:
[Liberal</a> Arts College Rankings 2012 | Washington Monthly](<a href=“http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/rankings_2012/liberal_arts_rank.php]Liberal”>http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/rankings_2012/liberal_arts_rank.php)
[Colleges</a> That Change Lives | Changing Lives. One Student at a Time.](<a href=“http://www.ctcl.org/]Colleges”>http://www.ctcl.org/)
[College</a> Rankings](<a href=“http://www.princetonreview.com/college-rankings.aspx]College”>Best Colleges 2023 | College Ranking List | The Princeton Review)
[Liberal</a> Arts Colleges ? the Complete Guide to Liberal Arts Colleges](<a href=“http://www.liberalartscolleges.com/]Liberal”>http://www.liberalartscolleges.com/)</p>

<p>(Note that there are many rankings. For them to make “real” sense, you have to look at SEVERAL of them and make “groups”, i.e, 15, next 20, next 20, etc: within each group the rankings are irrelevant).</p>

<p>Note that the “Top 100” American colleges would roughly 40 National universities such as the ones you cite, and roughly 60 National Liberal Arts colleges.
To understand the system better, you may want to read:
[The</a> Colleges Where PhD’s Get Their Start | The College Solution](<a href=“http://www.thecollegesolution.com/the-colleges-where-phds-get-their-start/]The”>The Colleges Where PhD's Get Their Start)
[What</a> is the Difference Between Colleges and Universities? | The College Solution](<a href=“http://www.thecollegesolution.com/what-is-the-difference-between-colleges-and-universities/]What”>What is the Difference Between Colleges and Universities?)
[Applying</a> to the Wrong Universities | The College Solution](<a href=“http://www.thecollegesolution.com/applying-to-the-wrong-colleges/]Applying”>Applying to the Wrong Universities)
[Getting</a> Grief for Liking Southern Universities | The College Solution](<a href=“http://www.thecollegesolution.com/california-teen-getting-grief-for-liking-southern-universities/]Getting”>Getting Grief for Liking Southern Universities)
[Interview:</a> Jeffrey Selingo, Author Of ‘College (Un)Bound’ : NPR](<a href=“Interview: Jeffrey Selingo, Author Of 'College (Un)Bound' : NPR”>Interview: Jeffrey Selingo, Author Of 'College (Un)Bound' : NPR)</p>

<p>Repeating an entire grade is not done in the US for academic advantage, only for athletics (football and basketball) so it’s probably not a good idea to repeat unless you can find a compelling reason to. It may jeopardize any chance you have at prestigious colleges. </p>

<p>American colleges do not make a difference between L, ES, or S. They only want to see that you got the best possible grades in the track/major you chose. Being in “section européenne” or “internationale” can be a plus. The only exception to this is if you plan on applying to an Engineering school, in which case you’ll have to have an S bac.</p>

<p>A 14 is above an A since it places you above 95% students in France. :wink: American students who reach that level don’t just get grades, they get an A plus work for awards. The system is different. To see an example of things excellent science students do in the US, read Science Fair Season (it’s been translated as: la foire aux sciences)
However realistically only students with 15-16 in most subjects will have a shot at the very top schools like HYPMS, Amherst Williams Swarthmore etc and even that is NOT sufficient for admission (Phys ed does not really count so if you have 8 there it’s okay. POsitive evolution from a bad 4e-3e to a good 1e also counts positively).</p>

13

<p>Your counselor will have to write a school profile where they explain if your school is nationally or regionally ranked and how that affects the grading (with the bac grades as a benchmark. For example, if students in your school who typically get 12 during the year typically don’t have a mention AB, it’s not the same value for the number as a 12 during the year which will typically yield a 14 for the bac…)</p>

14

<p>with 8 in physics and chemistry, don’t do S. Below a 12 in science/math trying S makes no sense. Try ES with a math specialty and add language if you can (section euro). If you’re not in euro right now, ask the program director if they’d let you apply. Bring your transcripts. Tell your English and Subject teacher (if DNL is History, tell your History teacher. If DNL is math, tell your math teacher…) that you’d like to apply and whether they think you can make it. Explain how it fits with your project.</p>

15

<p>I’ll talk about my experiences applying to the US as a French student, since I just got through the process.</p>

<p>I’ll give you an idea of my academics first:
15.5 moyenne overall from 3eme to Tle.
16 moyenne in Tle (ES)
On the bac in 1ere I got 17 on the French oral, 15 on the written, 17 in Sciences and 18 on the TPE.
On the SAT I got a 2140 (superscore, everything at 700+)
SAT IIs I took French w/ Listening (800), World History (740) and Literature (690).
I am in a normal lycee, but there is an Anglophone Section, so I’m taking the Option International du Baccalaureat. My highschool counselor recommendation was from the head of the Anglophone section and my teacher recommendations came from Anglophone teachers who knew me very well.
One of the issues with recommendations from French teachers is that they have a strong tendency to understate your abilities whereas the American teachers will be very expressive and (one might say) over the top when recommending students. If you know the proviseur or the CPE well enough, you could ask them to write the recommendations as your high school counselors, but you will have to make sure they completely explain how the French system is different.</p>

<p>For French applicants, one of our important disadvantages is the lack of ECs and national awards. I was able to do a lot of theatre and Model United Nations thanks to the Anglophone section. I also got involved in the school (Conseil de Vie Lyceenne and Conseil d’Administration) as much as possible, and played tennis in a club outside of school. But lycees don’t offer many clubs and sports like high schools in the US do. </p>

<p>I have dual nationality, so I was able to apply as an American citizen (which is very good for financial aid). </p>

<p>Now for the fun part: I applied to 7 top 25 schools (3 Ivies and 1 state school). One of my parents is an alumni of an Ivy I applied to (making me a legacy). As it turns out, I got rejected everywhere (waitlisted at two but that essentially means rejected) but the state school (a good school, but it costs too much, because I don’t live in the state and their financial aid is crap). It sucked, but I’ll be going to a top school in the UK instead, so not the end of the world.</p>

<p>I’m not here to discourage you, but the Americans are not at all familiar with the French system and how demanding it is. They don’t understand that all of our day is spent in school, we don’t get time to do ECs. The grade conversion system I used is the one the Lycee Rochambeau (I think it’s that) of Washington DC uses. Honor classes are all the classes except art (unless you’re in the options) and sports (I think that’s it). In 3eme, a 15 in an honor class was an A+. In Lycee, it’s a 14. </p>

<p>I’m a native English speaker, but I was raised in France with the French educational system. The hardest part of the application will be the essays, hands down. We are not taught to write these very personal essays, and we are never shown how to write creatively. And yet this is a major part of the application. You will NEED a native English speaker to look over your work and edit it. The essays get easier to writer as you go on and you get better. As it turns out I wrote my best essays at the very end (and they got me into the state school). </p>

<p>You might have to take the TOEFL as well, I’m not sure, but you’ll need to make sure you check that box if needed. </p>

<p>Redoubling is not worth it, schools prefer to see progress in the next year. And it seems pretty miserable tbh.</p>

<p>Basically, if you have the grades to be admissible at Sciences Po Paris sur dossier, you probably would have the academics that admissions officers in the top 25 schools would want. But that doesn’t guarantee you admissions whatsoever. Whereas in Europe, universities look at your academics primarily, in the US they look at the whole of you - your personality, race, religion, story, family, ECs, awards, passions, etc. It’s holistic. They want to create diverse student bodies with lots of interesting people who have accomplished a lot already and who will go on to accomplish more things in the future. </p>

<p>The people who got in to the ivies from my school in the past had some really good grades in some places (like 800 in math on SAT), great bac results (17-18) or just were lucky in that their parents were professors or both went to the same ivy, etc.
Admissions nowadays are incredibly difficult: once you get past the early applications, ivies have less than a 5% admission rate. You need to have some very unique and interesting things to help you to get in. </p>

<p>If you have any questions, I’ll be happy to answer them.</p>

16

<p>Oh and a common misconception is that your section (S, ES, L) will stop you from doing a certain major. That’s not true unless your major is part of the university’s engineering school, which often requires you to apply directly to it. You can apply as undeclared and then once in the school you can apply to the major you want in your second year. You could do L and then go to the US and become pre-med. You could do S and go and major in philosophy. It is NOT like in France where universities pay special attention to what filiere you chose. </p>

<p>Hellaflush, you can do ES and then apply for Computer Science, as it wouldn’t matter if you did S or ES seeing as there are no classes that teach that kind of thing. I would not redouble, it’s a waste of time as it’s not something students often do in the US and it would look better if you started getting really good grades in ES throughout 11th and 12th grade. </p>

<p>Obviously if you plan on doing something like physics it would make sense to do S though.</p>

17

<p>ChickenLadder, I’m sorry your adviser didn’t help you better than that. There should have been a school profile and an explanation of grades with the relation to the national benchmarks in “top…nationally” terms. Your “safety” should have been one you wanted to attend and seeing your stats I hope you applied to the Honors College. Your college mix must have been too homogenous and you applied to too few schools (3 where odds were unpredictable + 1 safety = you only applied to 3 matches, which is very few.) All of this comes down to advising, unless you deliberately disregarded advice to look at a greater range and type of schools.
If you dislike your British experience or want an “American college” experience, since you’re an American dual citizen, you have the option of transferring, although the colleges will always fill their freshman class first. (French nationals don’t have that option unless they’re wealthy, since there’s no financial aid for international transfers.)
Finally, just so you know, terrific schools like Beloit, New College of Florida, Lewis and Clark, Knox, SLU (Saint Louis University), Lake Forest, Juniata, The New School, Eckerd… are still taking applications and would probably be glad to look at yours.</p>

18

<p>MYOS, 7 schools seemed appropriate given that application fees are over 50$. In France you get only 6 choices on APB and in the UK you get 5 on UCAS.
It wasn’t that I was poorly advised per se, my counselor knows more about the UK than the US. I made the decision to apply to those schools based on a number of criteria I had in mind (academics, size, location, reputation, the major I was interested in) and suggestions from my relatives.</p>

<p>I might try and transfer, but even if that doesn’t work out the UK would allow me to end up with a masters at bac +4 which is definitely nice.</p>

<p>At this point all top 25 schools are unpredictable. 4 years ago I could have sorted the schools I applied to in terms of safety, reach and match, but these days it’s no longer possible at that level. Every top 25 and perhaps even top 50 is unpredictable for all but the very best students of the world.</p>

<p>As for those schools you recommended, I’m more interested in an international career so it’d be better to attend schools with a global reputation.</p>

19

<p>If it’s any indication, one of my friends at a top Ivy league got 20 in at least one of his classes. Yes, 20.</p>

20

<p>Many schools don’t have application fees - but I do agree that 7 schools at $50 would be quite enough.
Actually, APB allows you 20 choices (and even something like 32 if your top choices are pr</p>