Perhaps to be fair some should share the distinct benefits of a 3+2 program
The problem is that so few people actually complete such programs. There may not be anyone on this forum that has actual first-hand experience with a 3+2 program, and can speak knowledgeably about the potential benefits.
If you do complete the program, you get two degrees after 5 years: a LAC BA and an engineering school BS. In theory, certain dual-degree combinations might be of significant interest to employers, like an Economics BA + Engineering BS, or a Chinese BA + Engineering BS. But I’m not sure if that would be feasible. In practice, it might be necessary to major in a physical science or math in order to complete all lower-level engineering degree requirements at a LAC.
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This degree of matriculation/completion may be representative of LACs:
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My son is a first year at an LAC with a 3-2 program (and 4-2 and 2-1-1-1). The benefit for him was that he knew he belonged at an LAC but he was starting to become interested in engineering late in his high school career. To his analytical mind, the availability of the 3-2 program was a sort of academic safety net in case his interest in engineering bloomed into a full-blown passion during the next couple of years.
I think this is a pretty significant benefit. The number of LACs with engineering programs is small. The 3-2 programs offers LAC bound kids who aren’t yet 100% committed to engineering a bit more time to decide and many more options for schools.
As it’s playing out, after he had been at his college for only a month S told me that 3-2 was off the table and asked if we could afford 4-2. So the I’m-not-leaving-early effect can kick in pretty quickly.
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With the extra year of course work, a 3+2 program could provide enough schedule space to do an H/SS major alongside the lower level engineering requirements at the “3” school (it may be more difficult if the H/SS major has a long sequence of prerequisites, such as a foreign language/literature major for a student who needs to start at the beginning level of the language). However, many “3” schools limit the student’s major there (e.g. Bowdoin limits the student’s major to physics), although some do not (e.g. Brandeis).
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@ucbalumnus no I don’t have to go to college in Maine (and the only college in Maine that I would consider is Bowdoin), but NYC is 7 hours away from where I live and that’s too far away for them. Anything within 4 hours is OK.
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@Corbett I know, I tried to tell my parents that Bowdoin requires all first years to live on campus but they’re not the best listeners haha.
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Looks like the 4 hour limit from Brunswick, ME might reach to NH, VT, MA, RI, CT, and parts of upstate NY.
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Holy Cross also has the 3-2 program with Columbia. Would love to hear the stats on how many actually take advantage of this.
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@ucbalumnus yeah so it’s not like I’m limited by that much–some of the best schools in the country are in the northeast/New England. Like some of the schools on my list: WPI, RPI, Brown, Tufts, Northeastern, BU, etc. I think I may be better off at one of these institutions…
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@sciencenerd: one last thought on the 2-1-1-1 mentioned by @Merc81 and how it may fit better into a LAC situation than a 3-2. At Middlebury College (my alma mater) there is 2-1-1-1 with Dartmouth engineering. This works better than the 3-2 plan because in your junior year you are away doing engineering at the same time that many of your classmates are studying abroad (languages are big at Midd and so is studying abroad). In your senior year you are back at Midd and finish your 4th year with your class. Midd isn’t as close to your home as Bowdoin, but it is definitely not NYC either. Your 5th year is spend back at Dartmouth getting certified as an engineer. The program is outlined
http://www.middlebury.edu/academics/options/preprof/engineering/dartmouth
You must apply sometime in your sophomore year, and there are courses you must take your first two years. However, you receive a true LAC experience and you get a certified Ivy league engineering degree in 5 years. Of course you could go directly to Dartmouth and do the same in 5 years. Good luck on whatever you decide.
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The Dartmouth website lists all of the schools that participate in the 2-1-1-1 program.
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Some additional details on the LAC / Engineering combined engineering programs (either 3-2, 4-2, or 2-1-1-1).
Employers highly desire graduates of these programs since the students possess the advantages provided by LAC such as critical thinking and better communication skills, as well as the technical proficiency provided by the engineering school. Given the extensive technical prerequisites required for an engineering degree, it just isn’t possible to get it just by attending a 4 year engineering program.
The most popular program of its kind is the one with Columbia University. Columbia has this with about 100 LACs. In the two years of the program Columbia enrolls approximately 150 students (75/year). These students live in the same dorms for the first year if I am not mistaken, so plenty of opportunity to make friends with others in the same situation. Columbia has no quotas, so they will admit as many of qualified applicants as possible. However, if you miss a single qualification, you lose the guaranteed admission status and must meet typical Columbia transfer requirements (closer to a 3.8 - 3.9 GPA).
To be guaranteed admission for Columbia has extensive requirements:
1 - Must a 3.3 overall GPA, a 3.3 GPA in prerequisite math/science courses, which include Calculus I - IV, Differential Equations, Physics I, II, and Quantum, Chemistry and Computer Science. Depending on your intended engineering major there may be a few more. Plus you have to get a minimum of a B the first time you attempt to take any Math/Science course.
2 - Must have 27 credits in humanities and social sciences, including Economics and a Writing course. Must also fulfill all graduation/degree requirements of your LAC. At many LAC that go on a 4 courses per semester load where each courses is a unit, this translates to approximately 8 units/courses. Check with the engineering liaison at your LAC.
3 - Must get good recommendations from Math, Science,and the Engineering Liaison at the LAC.
Anyone who thinks it is easy to get/maintain a 3.3 GPA in a STEM major at Bowdoin or other selective LACs is sadly mistaken. It will require a great deal of hard work and tremendous stress to try and not get a single Math/Science grade less than a B in the first attempt.
The requirements at Dartmouth are not as extensive, however, there is no guaranteed admission to Dartmouth, Space is limited, could vary from year to year, and is very competitive. From what I understand you will need approximately a 3.5 GPA to be competitive. Dartmouth follows the 2,1,1,1 program.
Washington University in St Louis has somewhat similar requirements to Columbia, but the GPA requirements are 3.25, and the Math / Science GPA is calculated across all Math & Science courses.
RPI also participates, but seems to go by their usual transfer requirements for entry.
Financial Aid: With most schools in this program, during the first year at the engineering program you are doing an exchange program with the engineering school so your LAC tuition/financial aid covers your first year there. During the 2nd year the engineering school financial aid takes over. From what I understand, Columbia, Dartmouth, and Washington U meet 100% of demonstrated need (need only and no merit scholarships). RPI not so much since they just don’t have the same financial resources as these other schools. With some of these schools they limit maximum aid to price of tuition. You are on your own for room and board.
In conclusion, these are not easy programs to get into, and they are not easy to do well in. Engineering, or the STEM major at the LAC will require long hours of work to get the grades necessary to gain admission to these programs. However, even if you don’t get in, a STEM major at a liberal arts school will provide you with an excellent education and you can always pursue a masters degree in engineering with an undergraduate STEM major.
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It is a mistake to assume that normal engineering students will not learn critical thinking and communication skills. Of course, how much is learned depends on the curriculum at the school and the choices made by the student.
Note also that the extra year of course work could theoretically be used to take additional humanities and social studies courses if that is of interest to the student, but many “3” schools require the student to major in a science, preventing the use of the extra year of course work for that purpose.
I.e. it looks like 0.75 3+2 transfers to Columbia per year for each associated “3” school.
Columbia states that it does not guarantees such for 3+2 transfers, unlike for frosh and other transfers.
https://undergrad.admissions.columbia.edu/apply/combined-plan
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@ucbalumnus On the Columbia Financial Aid I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification. Year 1 of the program your LAC determines your aid. Year 2 of the program Columbia does.
However, in terms of exposure to greater humanities and social science course I stand by my earlier comments. The LACs do require the student to major in math or science since you still need all the calculus, physics, chemistry and computer science foundation courses for an engineering education. However, as part of the 3-2 program you have 3 years to fulfill those prerequisites as opposed to 2 in a traditional 4 year engineering program, allowing the student an additional year to take non-technical courses. Taking non-technical courses is NOT optional. Columbia requires 27 credits, Dartmouth requires 8 courses as a requirement. So the students will absolutely have taken more humanities and social science courses than someone in a traditional 4 yr engineering program, since the student in this program still has to fulfill the same foundational math and science courses.
As far as critical thinking and communication skills, this is one area where LACs truly shine. As opposed to the lecture format at most engineering schools and larger universities, LACs focus on a more discussion based method of teaching in much smaller class settings, where far more classes require active student participation. It is just not possible to do that with 200 students in a lecture hall. By no means does that mean all engineering schools are like this, but most are. If, however, the student attends a school like Bucknell, Lafayette, Union, Harvey Mudd, Swathmore, Smith etc. then yes they are also likely to develop the critical thinking and communication skills LACs excel in.
As far as transfer rates, on average you are right. More often what happens is, the LACs that are further away are likely to send no one to Columbia for years at a time, while a number of closer ones end up sending multiple students each year.
A science major includes more than the frosh/soph prerequisite courses for engineering. The extra year of schedule space that a 3+2 program adds will be consumed by the junior/senior level courses for the student’s science major, precluding the taking of that many additional humanities and social studies courses.
There are “3” schools where students may major in anything while taking the frosh/soph prerequisite courses for engineering. Brandeis is such a school. There, a student could major in a humanities or social studies subject while taking the frosh/soph prerequisite courses for engineering.
These are the same as for traditional four year engineering students at Columbia and Dartmouth, right?
Within other traditional four year engineering programs, MIT requires 8 HASS courses (about 1/4 of the entire degree, and including some advanced courses).
All ABET-accredited engineering bachelor’s degree programs must include some humanities and social studies courses. There is some discretion left to the school, and some require fewer than others. An example of a school requiring fewer is Brown, which requires 4 humanities and social studies courses (about 1/8 of the entire degree), but that is more than what Brown requires for non-engineering majors (it is well known for its open curriculum with no general education requirements).
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@akin67 @ucbalumnus thank you both!
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The 3-2 programs seem to be any easy way to set yourself up to NOT be an engineer after college.
Most families already find paying for 4 years of college to be financial agony. So unless your family is loaded, why would you deliberately sign up for 5 years?
On top of the added year’s tuition, you’re also looking at a year of potential lost income in the job market.
Why buy an airline ticket for an itinerary that requires a connecting flight, if the non-stop ticket is cheaper & faster?
Rather than repeat, some of my thoughts are in #21 here:
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/17379163#Comment_17379163
and #36 here:
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/9266071#Comment_9266071
and #s 5,7 & 8 here:
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/oberlin-college/859076-engineering.html?
Suggest you should read the whole threads, of course.
Here’s another old thread where I provided a lot of links to other presumably relevant threads in #2; however I am too lazy to review those now:
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/11499176#Comment_11499176
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