<p>Each reader takes some sort of notes when reading. The format varies from school to school.</p>
<p>As for decision calls, some schools take them and some don't. I don't think you can expect a dean to read the notes to you, but they will give you a general idea of how the pool was and how your application fit into it.</p>
<p>Personally, I like it when the student makes the call. GCs often call to talk about a list of kids, so we often speak just a little bit about each candidate.</p>
<p>I'll let you know how unfair it is when my friend hears back. He's legacy, but has just under a 3.2 GPA and only decent SATs (I beleive low 2000s). He's ranked 29/177 at our private Catholic school. If he gets in, then I think its unfair.</p>
<p>that's outrageous.
One of the students at my school has about 3.3 and the only thing he is good at is baseball. He is a pitcher.
He doesn't have any awards/honors nor any ECs. He got into Notre Dame.
Talk about the stupid expectations and the top rank of ND.
You should definitely post it on ND forum, or maybe report it on news.</p>
<p>It can be hard to look at some of the above examples and say they're "unfair" when it's been established that being a legacy was a clear advantage in this circumstance. Also getting recruited for a sport typically gives one a significant edge in admissions. There's a lot that's inherently "unfair" about the process but it's usually not considered a surprise that hooked applicants have more leeway than unhooked ones as far as stats. The school needs students the same way students need the schools, and they admit to fill their needs. </p>
<p>There could have been nothing wrong with your daughter's application. It might have really been that competitive and it came down to who connected with admissions/the school with their essays, recs...as much as it sucks to hear it, at some point it just isn't a science with SAT, rank, GPA...and I sort of feel the opposite about it, that some colleges might give off too much of an impression that a certain formula of numbers qualifies one, when in truth once you reach a certain level of competitiveness, the 32 or 34 isn't necessarily the problem. It depends on the read you get and lots of other subjective factors that are also important.</p>
<p>Agree with Princedog.
We should also consider this: Suppose a kid gets admission to school A and school B. She can only choose one, let us say that she choose A for some reason although B was higher ranked in USNWR. Can the Dean of Admissions of school B say that it was unfair?
So, we too need to grant the freedom to schools to choose from among many competing candidates.</p>
<p>Princedog-I think that one of the problems in this situation is exactly what you mentioned. It doesn't/shouldn't come down to a 32 or a 34. ND made it sound like students below a certain ACT score were not even considered. And these were kids w/scores over 30, and extremely established leadership qualities, etc., as well as solid standing in the top 5% of their class of nearly 400. They deserved a fair read, and an adcom should not be so glib as to say it was bc of a score below 33. I think a lot of people are beginnning to feel that ND is overrated, and although every applicant should clearly understand that regardless of their stats, etc, there is no such thing as a sure thing in college admissions. But ND misleads students when they give their pep talks to prospective applicants in regard to what they look for. Yes, they are fairly honest about the legacy advantage. But when they say they look for exceptional students, leaders and kids that are involved in everything from church to varsity athletics, well, then, IMHO kids meeting that criteria should have their applications read thoroughly and completely. Don't ignore a student bc of a couple of ACT points. I hope the adcom that said this was just your basic idiot, overworked, yes, but hopefully not representing the admissions office there. I look at it this way-it's their loss-really. I know of some kids who got in there on a wing and a prayer, but I now many more who were extremely deserving and denied. Statistics, of course, but come on...ND is getting a rep of having pretty strange admission policies. D will be fine, I thank everyone for your warm wishes for her. She has some great options, and in the end, I think she will find her 'fit.' If we don't have to travel to South Bend on a regular basis, I'm happy about that too! LOL.</p>
<p>I think college rankings should be determined by students and parents, the users and consumers! Just a thought, and probably one for another thread! lol. Also, some people have mentioned in their posts forums for particular schools. Is this something that can be reached thru CC? I am new to this, but would love to read some of those for the schools where D has been accepted. Any info or links would be greatly appreciated!</p>
<p>Daniel Golden's book, The Price of Admission discusses admissions at Notre Dame in some detail. After reading it, I think you wouldn't be as surprised by your daughter's outcome. So many slots are taken by legacies, recruited athletes, development admits, etc, that "the poor schmuck who has to get in on his own has to walk on water." (Daniel Saracino, assistant provost for admissions, Notre Dame.)</p>
<p>nikrud, the way I look at it is this, if a school is so arrogant to make such decisions, that 1 point on one test is the make or break point, who needs them? I am very serious...I can understand having standards and expectations, but to out of hand reject kids based on one set of #s without looking at the rest of the package, well, imagine what kind of class they will have? and if they are so narrow in mindset, who needs em</p>
<p>I wonder how the 33 was arrived at....</p>
<p>Hold on a minute - I think we might be going overboard. Did the admissions counselor say that all they looked at was the ACT score and if it wasn't 33 it was an automatic reject? Remember, the guidance counselor talked to the admissions counselor and then (at best) the guidance counselor talked to nikrud - or perhaps told the daughter, who then told nikrud? Anyway, even assuming the former, perhaps we have a bit of the old game of "telephone" going on? Even while assuming, as we must, that the GC was completely honest with nikrud? (One of the reasons that I think this is a possibility is that even if we assume that ND did have a "33 or reject" policy for this year's EA class, I sincerely doubt that the admissions counselor would say so quite so bluntly.)</p>
<p>you would be suprised</p>
<p>if they didn't auto reject anyone with a score below 33, how in the world would the adcom know that all the admitted non legacy students had at least a 33, did he look at each application, did someone compile all the stats already? please, the most logical way he new that number, if that is indeed what he said, was that it was a benchmark...33 is pretty specific</p>
<p>I actually called out there today, explained what was going on, what we were told, etc. I inquired as to whether or not this had indeed been the case with EA this year. I was told that many factors came into play, and that there were some kids admitted with less than a 33, but she would not elaborate on legacy, recruited athletes etc. Of course not. lol. Evidently ND had such stellar apps that they simply decided they could afford to 'cull' their class from the top 1-2%. Our GC spoke with the reader for our state, I however, did not. They were polite and apologetic, but rather non-committal. D is afraid that this thread may get back to them, making future applicants from our HS even more undesirable. Ah...college admissions begins to resemble a Russian spy novel! I am laughing at this absurdity. ^^They are pretty blunt up there in South Bend! ;-P</p>
<p>Citygirlsmom-Here's another thought! LOL. Maybe, lol, they said the cut off was 33 since of the 2 students the highest score was a 32! If the highest had been a 33, would they have said the cut off was 34? This could all have been a case of simply giving the easiest answer w/o having to go into what the reason really was. Especially when admission decision reasons are, as has been noted in previous threads, entirely subjective. But all things considered, I just don't believe ND usues anything more than a formula once they determine how many 'schmuck' spots they have. LOLLOLLOL!</p>
<p>From the ND website...
"For the class of 2010, 50% scored between 1330 and 1480 on the SAT and between 31 and 33 on the ACT. 25% of the class admitted scored above those ranges." </p>
<p>The mid 50% ACT for last year was 32 - I think it's likely that the EA pool bumped that up to a 33 this year. If that's the case, according to my kids' GC, if you're not at or above the mid 50% you'd better have a hook.</p>
<p>Wait, I still don't see where they said they automatically discounted anyone below a 33 ACT. All I see is that it was so competitive, a 33 was the lowest that got in. Am I missing something? Because the way I see it, it doesn't look like a cutoff at all.</p>
<p>Why wasn't she deferred, rather than rejected is what I am wondering...</p>
<p>Maybe it didn't come down to scores at all but rather, she just didn't seem like the right "fit" based on essay, recs, etc. Even if those were stellar, there could have been something that told the adcom that Notre Dame wasn't the best place for her, and that she would be better off at a diff. type of school.</p>
<p>Some of the reactions on this thread are why some admission officers might be reluctant to give out certain pieces of information. I'm relieved to see that some object to saying Notre Dame is being unfair. Their practices, regardless of what you think about them, are well documented.</p>
<p>During a conversation, an officer gave out a statistic that was probably meant to give the counselor an idea about the strength of the applicant pool. You can imagine that plenty more was said, but the thing that got reported was that the school had an ACT cut off.</p>
<p>Also, just because they said 33 was the mid 50th (which is probably true based on the info here), it doesn't mean your daughter didn't get a read. She probably did. Most schools bring all applications into committee (although granted the committee read might not consist of much). However, based on the legacy, recruit, development thing, and a selective EA pool, it sounds like you would need a considerable hook (huge fundraising effort, exceptional research, started significant community service project) to be successful in that pool. Some of these schools are trying to move up in the rankings and SAT/ACT can be important. </p>
<p>I know it seems unfair. But like Dean J said, these practices/themes/trends or what have you are fairly well documented. Even just anecdotally, several people on here had the situation pretty well placed. And to look on the bright side, it really doesn't sound to me like your D had no chance or that her app was thrown out or something. It sounds like she had a shot, but it's important to remember there were probably many other "shots" for the one space that she was vying for. And at that point, the kid who got the space could have had a 36 ACT, a 4.0, and pretty exemplar ECS, or the kid could have had a 32, a 3.8, and an amazing EC activity. It is usually fairly holistic at some point (for example, someone with a 26 doesn't have a great chance, but once you get at the mid 50th), and comes down to what the student offers the school.</p>
<p>Your daughter will probably have success in the regular round. I hope she gets into a school that proves to be an even better fit - there have been many such stories on here about disappointing early decisions and then a great regular round. A lot will change from when your D applied Early and this spring and I bet she will find the right fit. If not, there may be a chance of transferring? (no idea how ND works transfers)</p>
<p>It's very un-Christian of Notre Dame to admit less admissible legacies, recruited athletes, development cases, etc. That's just corrupt and evil!</p>
<p>
[quote]
You mentioned in your post the possibility that they did institute a cut off. That is the point here.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm confused--I genuinely thought this was something that the guidance counselor told you that the ND admissions official told him or her. I got that (or thought I got that) from your post. I didn't mean to introduce a new possibility.</p>
<p>From what I have seen, there is a lot less bad faith, unfairness, and shenanigans going on in college admissions than some families want to believe.</p>