<p>Thank you Adofficer. And I apologize as well. I did go overboard slightly. It just makes me angry when people think a simple test score makes one individual brighter than the other.</p>
<p>Most of us in admissions don't think the SAT/ACT measure "intelligence" - they measure your achievements in the subjects you are taking the test in. Thus, we have to take the scores with a grain of salt, keeping in mind the privileges - or lack there of - a particular student has had (or not had).</p>
<p>Adofficer. Thanks. </p>
<p>"We look at intellectual curiosity and love of learning (not just getting good grades for college admissions), potential for growth academically and socially, whether or not a student will take advantage of the opportunities offered to them at the school, different talents and perspectives...again, I could go on. "</p>
<p>Could you please tell me exactly how do you "look" at "intellectual curiosity and love of learning"? Also, could you explain to me why HYP is full of students with extremely high stats and very small amount of "student who take advantage of the opportunities offered"? Should don't it be 50/50 if what you say is correct?</p>
<p>BTW, this discussion remind me of rich people saying " money is not everything". ROFLMFAO.</p>
<p>BTW, I am schooled in Six Sigma etc big statistics. I know one single data point does not mean much. On the other hand, one will not be able to compare anything which can not be quantitatively measured.</p>
<p>For example, if I work hard and save everything I earn. With that, I send my D to Spain for a month to perfect her language skill. It will count less, you guys are saying, than a girl who learnt a couple of sentences of Spainish from a CD as that is all her drug up parents could afford? Even so it will take at least two more years for this other girl to catch up (if possible) to my D's level, Harvard will take her over us because her "potential", and "love of learning"?</p>
<p>laser,</p>
<p>read the Overachievers by Alexandra Robbins. Although the first paragraph starts out a little over the top, woven in between the student stories is some good sound facts and advice (which is definitely why the book is worth a read for parents and kids going through the admissions cycle).</p>
<p>From p. 202
[quote]
Harvard's dean of admission and financial aid, Bill Fitzsommons told me that applicants have to do some unusal things to distinguish themselves is a "misconception". "in brad terms, there are 3 ways to get into Harvard," he said. </p>
<p>Each year out of 23,000 applicants and 2,100 admits, </p>
<p>about 200 to 300 students get in because "they are among the most exciting potential scholars of the coming generation." </p>
<p>The second category consists of "people who do something extraordinarily well.' 200 to 300 excelling in dance, drama, or athletics, whose achievements "are almost surrogates for energy, drive and commitment." </p>
<p>The third way to get into Harvard is the most common: students who have "plain old accomplishments on a day-to day basis. it is not about gimmicks, but about substance."</p>
<p>Harvard tells students there are hundreds of excellent colleges choices, and while Harvard may be one of them, other schools might be a better match.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I am also going to suggest that you read a couple of threads on the parents forum:</p>
<p>*My Dinner With An Admissions Officer *</p>
<p>LARGE family wedding had me sitting next to a nice young man who I soon found out was an Admissions Officer at a private, elite, East Coast college (it's not appropriate to mention the school name, suffice it to say that it's one of the well-known, highly selective schools; he's been there perhaps 3-5 years after some experience at at least one other highly selective college). </p>
<p>*Just How Hard Admission Can Be *</p>
<p>Admissions stats provide a reality check - even very high-scoring students have a low probability of admission at some schools.</p>
<p>*"Whoever has the most APs wins" *</p>
<p>Good discussion of how AP classes figure into the "college admissions arms race." Post #49, by Ben Jones of the MIT Admissions Office, is particularly worthy of note; it is full of wisdom as well as information. </p>
<p>Especially take not of post 49 by Ben Jones- Admissions REP @ MIT (and CC poster)</p>
<p>
[quote]
First, the MIT adcom perspective.</p>
<p>I don't know the exact numbers; I couldn't tell you even if I thought it would be helpful. Numbers mean nothing to us because ~70% of our applicant pool is qualified in those terms.</p>
<p>Based on the thousands of apps I saw last year both in selection committee and as a reader, I can tell you that the average # of AP's for admitted kids was 5 or 6 (that's total for all 4 years of HS - i.e. 1-2 per year if evenly distributed). Many admits (most likely the majority) had no college classes. The most common AP's taken were in math and science (no surprise, it's MIT). The overwhelming majority got 4's and 5's on all tests.</p>
<p>I'll pause here to add that I frequently saw kids with perfect SAT scores and perfect grades and a gazillion AP classes get rejected. Why? Because often these kids knew how to grind, but brought nothing else to the table. And that's not who we're looking for at MIT. We admit kids who show genuine passion. Sure AP's can be one of many passion indicators - but I emphasize one of many.</p>
<p>When I was on the road, kids asked me repeatedly whether or not they should take a given AP class.</p>
<p>"Well," I'd respond, "would you be taking it because you genuinely want to, or simply because you think it will get you into college?"</p>
<p>Sometimes they didn't know the difference, which is a tragedy that deserves its own thread. But I digress.</p>
<p>And this is where you all start saying that adcoms are talking out of both sides of our mouths: we encourage kids to follow their hearts in the choices they make, and then as adcoms we want to see that they've taken "the most challenging courseload."</p>
<p>To which I say: guys, I work for MIT! If a kid doesn't want to be taking a challenging courseload in high school, that kid is certainly not going to be happy here.</p>
<p>Quite simply, the students who are happiest here are those who thrive on challenge. Most of our admits have taken AP math and science because they would have been bored silly in the regular classes. Indeed, they genuinely wanted to take those classes. They don't look at MIT as the prize; they look at MIT as the logical next step. It's an important distinction.</p>
<p>When faced with the choice, we will always choose "the right match*" over numbers. We're not lying when we say that. You've heard me beat that sentiment to death in other threads, so I won't do so here.</p>
<p>(*Match = mission, collaborative spirit, hands-on, balance, character, and passion, among others.)</p>
<p>But the reality is that when you have 10,500+ applications for ~1000 spots and 70% of the pool has great numbers, your pool is going to have plenty of kids who have the passion and the match and the scores/grades/AP's. So we admit those kids - what other choice do we have?</p>
<p>But then (understandably) you guys say "Look! You need X, Y, and Z to get into MIT!" To clarify, we don't require those things; many of our admits just happen to have them. And, I might add, for the right reasons.</p>
<p>This brings me to the more important part, where we toss my affiliation with MIT out the window and I give you my thoughts as a parent.</p>
<p>There is only one coin. There are many sides to the coin, but there is only one coin. And you can flip it however you like.</p>
<p>So when a parent says to me, "Why does HYPSM put so much emphasis on AP's?" I reply "Why do you put so much emphasis on HYPSM?" When a parent says "My kid's value as a person/student shouldn't be measured by how many AP's he/she has taken" I say "...and your kid's value as a person/student shouldn't be measured by whether or not he/she goes to HYPSM." I could go on and on.</p>
<p>There are literally hundreds of amazing colleges and universities out there (some of which actually admit kids with no AP's!). Many of them would actually be better matches for your child. Many of them would provide your child with a better education. Most importantly, many of them would ultimately give your child a greater sense of happiness and fulfillment. The right match will do that.</p>
<p>And the match goes both ways. We try to determine if your kid is a good match for MIT. Your kid should be trying to determine which school is the best match for him/her. As a parent, what are you doing to help him/her figure that out?</p>
<p>Here's a hint: if you're spending time obsessing that a lack of AP's is going to keep your kid out of Stanford, you're missing the point.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>*This year's applicants - please listen *</p>
<p>No matter how stellar your credentials are, build your list of places to apply to from the bottom up says this mom whose high achiever son is taking a gap year after getting no acceptances. </p>
<p>I would also suggest you read the article : **Inside the admissions games <a href="admissions%20at%20the%20university%20of%20chicago">/b</a></p>
<p>*Receipe for success *- 5,822 extremely qualified applicants. 540 places in the Class of 2009. 11 admission officers balancing scores of priorities from the campus community.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.williams.edu/home/focus/recipe/%5B/url%5D">http://www.williams.edu/home/focus/recipe/</a></p>
<p>Sybbie. Thanks!!!!!!!!</p>
<p>................ND had 'such great apps' this year for EA that they did not take any non-legacies with an ACT of less than a 33..................</p>
<p>...........Most of the kids admitted to ND from our H.S. in the past have been legacies, and have been poor representation for the school..................</p>
<p>NIK - maybe your own words have a good indicator of a possible reason for what has happened as well - maybe some rejection d/t rep of the past - could well be</p>
<p>JeepMOM-don't get the last sentence (d/t)? I only meant that there are several large ND families in town. Of the last 7 that have started at ND, only 3 have finished, and one is presently a freshman. They would have been poor students regardless of where they went, but was just pondering if maybe they have led anyone at ND to think kids from around here are hard-core party kids w/little respect for education. Again, just a thought. This has gotten WAY off track and serious. And a little nasty, especially laserbrother. What's with the comment about drugged up parents? I hope you are not as bitter as you come across.
AdOfficer has been the consistent voice of reason. My D is fine, like I said, all of her other apps went well. She applied to 6 schools of varying selectivity, was denied at ND and admitted EA t a similar one, admitted to 2 great state schools, and awaits word for one other selective LAC (NOT a HYP!!!LOL) on April 1st. I see now she was just not what they were looking for....but what another was. Who knows what that was, I just know that I stand by my assertation that no single criteria should EVER be a deciding factor. As I said in a few earlier posts, I am a strong believer in fit. This entire country needs to calm down. You can learn a lot from threads lke this, I know I did, but I learned more from my daughters' attitude and outlook, desires and dreams. Everyone calm down, maybe it's time to change the subject. Maybe it's time to let our children know they are valued and like AdOfficer reiterated, ther are SO any great schools here. My child that is at the college of HER choice, a little second tier LAC
in the NE is setting the world on fire. Again, fit. Peace, people-it's just 4 years and it's what our kids think and do that matters.</p>
<p>The only way for the thread to change its topic is to be removed from this forum.</p>
<p>If you did learn a lot from your daughter's experience, then why are you still complaining about it?</p>
<p>I understand that you wanted to share your point with everyone, but it just seems like you still want to know what exactly happened with her application.</p>
<p>And I would want to know why as well. However, it's just best to move on. If she likes Notre Dame so much, then she can perhaps transfer a year later.</p>
<p>This argument won't change her rejection.</p>
<p>NIK - sorry about the abbreviations - what I was meaning was that may the reputation of folks past could well be affecting the present - those that have gone before may have given them a bad taste - but that said...................... I am a very firm believer of 'thngs happen for a reason' - we may not know what that reason is - or agree with it at the moment - but - we land where we are supposed to be. It certainly sounds like your gal has several good landing places - she will choose the 'right' one - for her.</p>
<p>It is really nice with the process is all over - and everyone can relax - and take a big breath - time to exhale :D</p>
<p>"Most of us in admissions don't think the SAT/ACT measure "intelligence" - they measure your achievements in the subjects you are taking the test in. Thus, we have to take the scores with a grain of salt, keeping in mind the privileges - or lack there of - a particular student has had (or not had)."</p>
<p>I have to disagree, SATs ( not so much ACTs) do measure reasoning skills. Analogies (I may be one of the few who are sad to see are no longer on the SAT )have long been recognized as a test of intelligence. Also, my son, took the SAT at age 12 and got a 740 on the verbal part, this did not reflect anything he was learning at school ( he was in a regular school ) -- So, I will agree that SATs do not tell the whole picture, I think that they DO measure the ability to reason as well as what the student has learned in school.</p>
<p>AdOfficer -- thank you so much for posts #80 & #81 -- they so eloquently sum up some very important concepts.</p>
<p>ManUtd-Please read the posts...I am not complaining....You aren't getting it at all. My posts initially were compaining, but also asked some questions-which obviously A LOT of people wonder about. I have let ND go, it was easy-it's the process that intrigues me as well as the experiences of other people. I am not complaining, re-read. I think unfortunately this thread is out of control and it should no longer be about me or my D, as it's evolved into thoughts on many, many other things.<br>
Anyone out there know how to remove a thread? Thanks</p>
<p>Nikrud, I took a quick look at the Notre Dame EA acceptance thread and it looked like 33 was a pretty solid cutoff there. Those who got in with lower numbers had some really high SATs. There were those rejected even with a higher 33, if there was a slight flaw in the app (that I noticed). As to a few that might have reported lower scores, I would not take them as gospel, as there is often a truth element in anything like this that is not officially substantiated. Highschools will often not release any accept/reject info without the actual (not copy) acceptance letter or a release for them to check with the college if the letter is lost. They have fooled too many times by kids who did not report accurate information. So giving that thread some error, margin, it looks like the adcom was telling the truth.</p>
<p>Also, you know it is not all of the story. You had better believe that the recruited athletes, development, celebrity, etc categories did not have to meet that threshhold. What the adcom meant was those kids who did not stand out on the ND 2007 Wishlist but did not get washed out when the app was read because grades, ecs, recs, curriculum, essays all were within ND's acceptable standards were held to the 33 ACT standard. There are categories of admissions that are not in the general pool and not examined that way if they meet a school needs and wants. </p>
<p>A few years ago, a former adcom from Duke wrote a tell all book about Duke's process. Actually Duke has always been straightforward about their general admissions methodology, but book went into details. THe kicker that would get a student in was the SAT1 number. I would think ND does something of that sort.</p>
<p>Nikrud,
I am sorry that your daughter was disappointed by Notre Dame, but glad to know that she has other great prospects and a good spread of applications. Of the most selective colleges, larger universities tend to be more numbers-oriented, smaller colleges more flexible and focused on subjective factors. Also... I think there is a general misconception that the EA/ED process somehow gives a boost to students with below-median scores.... I think that comes from a misinterpretation of data. EA/ED is where most colleges latch onto their hooked applicants, particularly recruited athletes and legacies -- and that may in turn impact on reported average scores. But among unhooked applicants, there is no benefit whatsoever to a college to cut any kid a break -- they are just filling a slot early with one student when they know that they will have many more apps from highly qualified, compelling students later on. </p>
<p>I do understand your opening post to be one more out of curiosity rather than a complaint, and I understand your frustration -- but the point is, test scores ARE important. They are not the end-all, but it is probably useful for your school's gc to know that an unhooked applicant will need high scores to do well in the EA process in the future. </p>
<p>I am the parent of a kid with weak test scores who did very well in the admission process last year -- she got into most of her reaches and is essentially studying on an Ivy League campus with an ACT of 28 -- but part of the process is targeting well. Some schools place more importance on individualized factors than others. Fit is very important, and it has to be two ways: the applicant's strong points have to coincide with the college's needs. So all we can do as parents is make sure that our kids hedge their bets with good safeties as well as their reaches.</p>
<p>I am a high school college counselor that also happens to have a son that's a senior who applied EA to Notre Dame and BC. No legacy or hook, 34 on the ACT w/a 3.9 uw GPA, from a public high school on the west coast. He actually e-mailed ND first and asked if he should apply early. They were very guarded, but did say he "would be a candidate for early admission." He had no indications from BC. He was accepted early to ND but deferred to RD at BC. </p>
<p>I help kids everyday chose schools that I think (hope) will be a good match for them. It can be a stressful process for many students and their families. Admissions is always a surprise.</p>
<p>My D called Notre Dame last fall and asked if it would be in her best interest to apply early based on low-ish SAT and ACT scores. THey told her no, she would be stronger in the regular applicant pool. Early action is for those with really strong STATs.</p>
<p>Nikrud, I did not see your last post. I typed mine over a period of time so you posted before I finished. I am glad you posted this thread, and am sorry that some posters got a little sharp. I don't usually go to this section of the board, but when CC highlighted it, I had to read this. My son is interested in ND, so I took looked up info on it. (he hasn't shown much interest in colleges yet--he's a junior). We used to live in ND country, where many of the top students in our area schools applied there as their first choice. To stand out in that crowd, you have to be one of the very top students. It did not often come down to the top 5 or even 3 % but the top 3 to 5 kids in the schools that were considered. So the geographics did not help you. Also, ND seems to give a bit of a favor to certain Catholic schools in that area that feed them tons of apps, including the best students in each class. In the Northeast where I now live, it 's a little bit of a different story. You don't see that many top kids here applying to ND. They apply to the ivies and other NE schools as a rule. Even the catholic schools here do not feed their best to ND consistently. BC and Georgetown are the favorites here. So the kids who apply here are not always the very top of class. The accept rate is not that hot either. That really puzzled me, until I realized that kids here are competing with those top kids in the midwest. Also some of the Catholic schools here have a bit of connection with some of the Catholic colleges here, and that comes into play too. </p>
<p>I also heard a few years ago that ND got a lot of flak when the book, "The Early Game" came out. ND has been insisting forever basically that it is NOT easier to get EA. Well, the data that this book collected pretty much demonstrated otherwise. So they are now being much stricter with EA, to make sure that what they are doing is consistent with what they are saying about EA. I found their EA 'warning" on their website rather ominous, and if they are upholding what they say now, EA is going to be a tough route. From your post, it looks like this is the case.
Thanks for posting. I felt you brought up some very important info.</p>
<p>twosonmom - there are plenty of kids who hit high scores on the SAT before they cover the materials in school. Your son sounds quite bright, but reasoning skills are not the sole basis of intelligence, and they can be taught. Intelligence is not taught...and "regular schools" can teach reasoning skills, even at an early age. Also, analogies were removed from the SAT because of their cultural bias...</p>
<p>Possibly that might be true. My sister got in early action into Notre Dame 3 years ago with a 31 ACT. She was neither a recruited athlete or a legacy to ND. The only real hook I can even possibly see besides her good application was that fact she's Asian (which I believe is considered a URM at ND). They might have changed since then with that book coming out.</p>