<p>^^^ This is similar to a case in which we expect to get A for a paper and our English teacher marks it with a big red B! In our own assessment it was a brilliant peice of writing... lol...</p>
<p>Nikrud, why did your daughter apply EA? Just wondering. She may have had a better shot RD, as hbh500 says:</p>
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I think one must realize that early action is a different ball game than regular decision. ND will admit to anyone that they are only looking to accept kids who would DEFINITELY have been accepted regular, and consequently many kids in the gray area (under 1450, under 33) find themselves rejected when the worst they expected was a deferral.
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<p>I'm also wondering why your daughter's GC advised applying EA. </p>
<p>I want to emphasize that I'm NOT implying your daughter wasn't qualified, or that her GC made a mistake. It's just that people who deal with ND usually know the specific parameters of EA, which is different from other schools'. My friend's daughter applied last year, and they agonized whether or not to do EA. Her SATs were 1440, and they felt that was on "the cusp." So she did RD instead.</p>
<p>Nikrud, </p>
<p>You do raise an interesting point about the possibility of ND being out of reach for non-legacies from your D's high school...however, I don't know that that is what is really going on. It could be - I don't work there, so I really don't know - but I think what may be at play here is that you guys are from the mid-West, an area that Notre Dame does well in (recruitment-wise). True, it's a private institution with a national reputation, but my guess would be that Notre Dame gets a lot more apps from the mid-West than a lot of institutions on the coasts. Thus, maybe students with the grades, the testing, the ECs, the talents, the curiosity, etc..., are still getting steamrolled because only the best of the best from the mid-West are applying and there is such a high concentration of them in the pool. </p>
<p>Someone mentioned "Tufts syndrome" on this post (and it has been mentioned on others). Having actually worked there personally and knowing several folks still there, I'd like to debunk the myth - Tufts doesn't deny kids it thinks are not going to come; demonstrated interest has nothing to do with admissions there either. There are several places that will not admit a kid if they think they are a safety for the student, but Tufts isn't one of them nor is it really a safety for anyone, especially nowadays when they get over 15,000 applications a year from the best kids in the country...</p>
<p>LOL. Nikrud, while trying to find faults by others, why don't you take a mirror and look at yourself. If your D had a 2300+ SAT, 35 ACT, 5 on all 11 AP courses, and some 800 SAT II s, the outcome of the application could have been different. While EC are really subjectives, these test scores are hard data points. IMHO.</p>
<p>We are immigrants to this country and we know no one at any universities. The only thing that we have for my D and S to get into good schools are 100% solid numbers. We let our kids know that very early and we work with them everyday. Everytime they got a A- in something in the quater, we talk to them. If needed, we would schedule a conference with their teachers to seek help. Solid grades and test scores do not fall from sky (to most of the populations). Last time I checked, my D's grades were 4 A+ and 3 As in a very competitive HS (99.2% of the graduates go to colleges). And we had a good talk with my S who had only 2 A+ and the rest of As. </p>
<p>Just be thankful that this is a great country and we have schools for most of everyone who wants to get a college education, even those who get less than desireable grades or test scores.</p>
<p>Also, it is just $50, not $50,000. With the time you spent on typing here, you could have easily earned far more than $50.</p>
<p>The "Tufts Syndrome" myth circulates about my MA high school as well, but I think it's somewhat out of date by now. "Brandeis Syndrome" is much more real to us.</p>
<p>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
LOL...that's funny...I should tell my friends at Tufts that one :)
For you though, it's going to be tough to get into any elite privates in Massachusetts since you're from there and the MA pools at places like Tufts, Harvard, MIT, and Brandeis are HUGE. And, traditionally, Mass residents (and most New Englanders, for that matter) revere privates schools more than the publics, making the competition even stiffer...this was something we in admissions always talked about at NEACAC (the New England Associate of College Admissions Counselors) meetings...the publics are good up there too!</p>
<p>I have read all of this thread with great interest. ND is one of my son's top choices. We have been to two info sessions at ND. They have been extremely clear that an applicant should be in the very tippy top of their pool to apply EA. </p>
<p>They treat EA very differently than most schools. Do I like it? No. Were we well aware of it? Yes. At least in all of our dealings with them, they were explicit in what they expected for class rank, GPA, and test scores to apply EA. A year ago, we were told one should have a 32 to apply EA. This fall, we were told 33. I emailed and asked our adcom if my son should apply EA, because his was slightly lower and he wouldn't have results of the Oct. ACT by the application deadline. She advised waiting. So after much thought, he did apply RD.....(and of course then the Oct. ACT was a 33! lol)</p>
<p>Laserbrother-rather random and strange post, but..ok. Since many immigrants are complaining that they aren't getting into selective schools bc of what you call the 'subjective' things, guess we are all unhappy about the process for some reason. LOL. I think you misinterpreted a lot of the posts, this is merely a discussion. We did not 'groom' our children to get admitted to a particular University. We have simply allowed them to grow up, develop interests, enjoy their friends, expand their minds, and enjoy life, while always reminding them that their education was the most important thing for THEM. No, I did not push my children for A+'s instead of A-'s. They didn't take SAT/ACT prep classes. If D's denial could have been avoided by doing those things, we all agree we'd get denied again. I don't see much difference in an A- or an A+, or b/w students who score in the top 10% nationally. I certainly don't see the difference once they're in college. Oh my, such strong feelings about college admissions. We are not here to diss one another or the way we have raised our children. College admissions in this country are just becoming a freak show- everyone needs to calm down....and take a deep breath. I look forward to enjoying watching my kids go through college and beyond-they have much to learn and much to offer. P.S. About the $50...point was, $50 X 15,000+ apps...Where does that money go? Hopefully not back into the sleek brochures and letters telling thousands more kids they should apply! Lol. Put it into scholarships!</p>
<p>but for hotchkiss it is very obvious that the top get rejected the bottom get mass accepted.. at least from the profile the college office gave out..i m talking about tufts</p>
<p>This makes me feel real wonderful. I got a 26, but the rest of my app is great. I guess I have no shot now. I probably wasted money applying. But you know what, I don't give a damn. I love ND and I did the best that I could. Maybe I am not good at these type of tests? I am one of the most intelligent students in our whole school. I get better grades than those who even got a 34 or 35, and I don't think it is fair to allow 1 test to be the deciding factor in admissions. It has to be taken into account that some students will just not do well on it, and yet they could possibly be a lot more intelligent than those that do get the 30+ or the 1300+/1600 on the SAT's. I did all that I could, and if one little test screws me over I will be pretty upset.</p>
<p>At our high school, one of the top kids got rejected ED from Boston College despite all kinds of Catholic connections and excellent grades, recs, etc. This was a major blow to the student and to the other kids in the school who figured "Boy, if they were rejected this is going to be really tough." Student took major scholarship to USC instead. Another got in regular decision with less stellar rating.
It is a bit funny, I know no one in California Bay Area who is ND crazy for the academics, just for the football. I also have never met a fellow physician or med student in the area here, in Texas, or Florida where I have studied who went to ND. I think it is partially a regional phenomena which colleges are popular. In many states the top state university gets you farther along in Business, politics or even state graduate schools then many of the Ivies.
I was super ****ed when my parents would not even let me apply to Ivies because they cost too much. This was the days when high school student did not have credit cards or checkbooks. I went to Chapel Hill. loved it, and would not have taken any other college experience instead.<br>
I know your daughter will end up at a good school. I hope she enjoys it for its campus, fellow students, activities, and stimulating professors rather than be miserable at a college that has a great name but students she dislikes and professors who won't talk to her.</p>
<p>Nikrud. Shake hands. At least we agreed that education is THE MOST important thing. </p>
<p>While you said I misunderstood you. I, in the same fashion, think you misunderstood me. Our kids do just about everything like any other kids in US. Heck, my D even got a BF since 9th grade. </p>
<p>BTW, about not difference b/w the top 10%, I think you are very wrong there. There are about 3 million HS graduate each and every year, so the top ten 10% is about 300,000. I bet you that there is a statistical significant difference between the first 3,000 and those at 297,001 - 300,000. If each University took 1500 kids per year, 300,000 kids will fill 200 schools. R U saying there is not difference between the first 10 and the bottom 10 out of 200 school?</p>
<p>AdOfficer-
You make a lot of good points. The midwest pool at ND is quite large. It's still not as bad as it is for people from the NE!<br>
Syrystress-
I did know about ND's EA stats, although I had not gotten the info about scores as high as 32 and 33. Oh well. D was tops in all other stats, AP's, SATII's etc. and I do realize that there was more to it than the one score. I think a lot of it was frustration bc the msg we were getting was that there was actually a cut-off...but I really, really don't want to start THAT one again! Sheesh. The proverbial can of worms.<br>
I would love to see a really good debate on this forum about the state of college admissions in general. Not about individual schools or students(egad!). Why are we, as a nation so obsessed? Why do so many kids apply to the same schools? Why do so many kids apply to some just to see if they'll get in? Why do they apply to highly selective schools knowing full well there is NO merit money, fully aware that their families cannot or will not foot the bill? And what about that price? Oooooh, so many good topics.</p>
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We are immigrants to this country and we know no one at any universities. The only thing that we have for my D and S to get into good schools are 100% solid numbers. We let our kids know that very early and we work with them everyday. Everytime they got a A- in something in the quater, we talk to them. If needed, we would schedule a conference with their teachers to seek help. Solid grades and test scores do not fall from sky (to most of the populations). Last time I checked, my D's grades were 4 A+ and 3 As in a very competitive HS (99.2% of the graduates go to colleges). And we had a good talk with my S who had only 2 A+ and the rest of As.
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<p>laser,</p>
<p>First of all I think that your comments to Op were a little harsh. (Nikrud, while you may not beleive it now, your D will end up where she needs to be and this process will be a thing of the past).</p>
<p>While your philosophy with your kids works for you and yours it doesn't mean that you are doing everything right either. In fact, your myopic view of what it takes to get a kid into an elite college could be detrimental to your own kids and you could be setting them up for some major disappointment in the admissions cycle. </p>
<p>Yes, it is great to have good scores and great GPAs, other than public universities which tend to be more numbers driven, what you are doing with your kids will not guarantee them admission into an elite school. </p>
<p>Keep in mind that elite college admissions in the U.S. are a holistic process and many students with "perfect scores and perfect numbers" who do not get a seat at the table. For most of these schools they are looking to build a well rounded class where students can learn from one another (remember that education takes place both in and outside of the classroom) grades and scores are only one piece of the puzzle. </p>
<p>Also elite admissions also operates a bit under the premise of "those to whom much has been given, much is required" so students are evaluated in context of the opportunities they have been provided with and whether or not they have taken advantage of them. For example, a student who has parents who are college educated (whether or not they got the education in this country), who are middle income/upper middle income, who live in an affluent area, who have the means for test prep, EC, acess to better school systems are going to be evaluated differently from the student, whose parents did not graduate high school, comes from a single parent household, attends a low or underperforming school and works to help support the family.</p>
<p>NDjake. Fortunately, you can't make me. </p>
<p>As this single test thing, I agree with you that one single test does not mean much. However, no one restricted you to only one test. If you plan it right, you should have taken one earlier. In case the results are less than desireable, then take another one. A 26, however, is way on the low side. Isn't the national average around 24? </p>
<p>I don't really care if you are intelligent or not. All I were saying to OP is that each of us should examine our own effort first.</p>
<p>sybbie719. I was, indeed a little harsh to OP. </p>
<p>Your last paragraph is very interesting. R U saying if I would quit my job, get divorced, and get lock in jail, my D would have a better chance of getting in an elite school? That if I work hard, take good care of my family and pay extra attention to my kids' education will somehow make them more difficult to get in?</p>
<p>o.k. The National average of ACT is 20.9 for 2004.</p>
<p>laserbrother - with all due respect to you and your children, straight As and top standardized test scores are not the only things that matter for college admission, or in life. Nor are super EC resumes...
Also, keep in mind that not everyone has the support of their parents like your children apparently do or the luxury to indulge their academic and extracurricular interests. Not every child can only concentrate only on schoolwork - there are many students, both immigrant and non-immigrant students - who have to work several hours per week to support themselves or their families, have to take care of sick relatives, live in poverty, face discrimination or racism...I could go on. Thus, GPA and testing - or "stats" - aren't the only things we look at in making up our classes at elite colleges and universities - they simply don't tell us the whole story. We look at intellectual curiosity and love of learning (not just getting good grades for college admissions), potential for growth academically and socially, whether or not a student will take advantage of the opportunities offered to them at the school, different talents and perspectives...again, I could go on. </p>
<p>The point is this isn't a zero sum game. We don't live in a meritocracy where everyone has the same opportunities to achieve academically and extracurricularly as their peers. And we want our students to learn from each other's experiences and perspectives, not just from their professors. Because we make our decisions based on whether or not a student has taken advantage of the opportunities presented to them in their particular circumstances - academically AND otherwise - we can't simply quantify people as "the top 10%" of that year's graduating seniors. In addition, it's really dangerous and short-sighted to talk about schools as "the top 10" and such - rankings and prestige are ridiculous when it comes to higher education...if your kids go to Yale, Amherst, Bowdoin or Brown or Stanford and are miserable for four years, do you really think the time, energy, and money are worth the name as compared to maybe the University of South Dakota, where they might be thrilled, work just as hard, and gain from unique opportunities for four years (just using these schools randomly - don't anyone go off on me about the merits of one over the other)? Do you really think your kids - smart as they already seem to be - will not have good lives if they choose Eckerd College over Swarthmore? College, like high school, is what you make of the opportunities afforded to you...</p>
<p>I'd also like to add that standardized testing has severe limits...there's a lot of educational research out there suggesting that there are serious cultural biases in the exam, not to mention ridiculous costs associated with it, a variety of problems in the administration of the test, and the fact that it only really measures your analytical achievements, not your creative, experiential, or other forms of learning...</p>
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R U saying if I would quit my job, get divorced, and get lock in jail, my D would have a better chance of getting in an elite school? That if I work hard, take good care of my family and pay extra attention to my kids' education will somehow make them more difficult to get in?
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<p>No, I am not saying that (but if you think it would work, then do you). </p>
<p>What I am saying is that everyone is evaluated in context of the opportunities that they have had available to them and how they used those opportunities. If a student does come forward with the profile you posted, s/he is going to be evaluated from a perpespective of in spite of all of that, s/he has done well and made full use of the opportunites available to them. Just want you to understand a little about the process and not get mad
if a student coming from the back ground that you wrote about, gets in to Harvard and heaven forbid your kid gets waitlisted of rejected :eek: because because H won't bea t a loss of students coming from this type of environment while here you are sitting on high proclaiming what parents/ students should be doing.</p>
<p>Cross posted with Adofficer who summed it up pretty well. Thanks AO</p>