Are AP tests useless as "admission tools?"

Parent Cafe
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<p>Most of my son’s applications (and the common ap) had spaces for self reported scores. I don’t think they would ask for the scores if they weren’t being considered. </p>

<p>And yes, I think self studied APs add strength to an application. That my son was an AP national scholar, mostly thru self study when he applied seemed to help him greatly (as his GPA wasn’t even close to stellar and he was accepted at some very highly selective schools). </p>

<p>Lastly, most APs can be self studied-- my son managed chemistry, physics, english language and us history totally self studied; and statistics, macro econ and us gov&pol with only rather poor online course support. The ap courses taught as his public high school were not particularly well taught, be he was able to see that and supplement on his own.</p>

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<p>Someone on the Yale forum did a pretty thorough analysis of last year’s SCEA results and if I remember correctly, “lots of 5’s on lots of AP’s” correlated much better with successful admissions than did SAT scores.</p>

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<p>No different from extra recommendation, supplimental materials, etc. If the grades are good, it can’t hurt. At the margin, it might make a difference (why didn’t the kid report/send in the scores?).</p>

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<p>I’m planning on using AP tests to (hopefully) demonstrate that I am capable in most all my classes and that the reason I have gotten relatively lower grades (Bs) in some classes (English, for me) is not that I’m bad or anything, but that our class is really hard.</p>

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<p>IBfootballer-- a more effective way of demonstrating that is through the school profile and specific mentions by counselor and teachers in their recommendations. High AP scores and lower class grades can also communicate a lack of self discipline (my son is the classic example of this).</p>

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<p>Be careful of temptation in"self reporting" AP scores.
Last year a girl from our high school was rescinded because of dishonesty in self-reporting her AP scores. I suppose the school found out when the real scores were sent by the college board. I don’t think her scores were awful (I have no idea what they were), it’s that the school considered it academic dishonesty.</p>

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<p>Colleges want rigor - AP classes and AP-equivalent classes linked to decent AP test scores can demonstrate rigor. Reporting APs definately count in admissions. </p>

<p>On the flip side, if your school offers lots of APs, but you don’t take them, you look like a slouch. </p>

<p>Grade Deflation - for students from schools with really tough grading standards, a B in chem matched with a 5 on the Chem AP can dig a student out of the GPA deflation hole.</p>

<p>So why would a teacher tell a student’s family that APs have nothing to do with admissions? Terror on the part of teachers unions. With parents pushing like crazy for APs and School systems pushing for them, there are fewer and fewer slots for the teachers who were barely qualified to teach at the regular level, let alone at what is essentially college level. What do school systems do with the teachers who can’t do the job?</p>

<p>And GASP! homework. AP English requires writing (and correcting papers.) Chem and Calc requires problem sets (with corrections by teachers). At many public schools teachers have defined their role as 5 class a day and out the door - in part from lack of support from parents to ensure that homework gets done. With the push for more APs, teachers are back in the difficult position of having to push students and families to get that homework done. (and then teachers have to spend hours correcting it.)</p>

<p>And GASP GASP GASP! AP scores level the playing field and expose teachers to objective measures. If teacher A’s students get 5s, but teacher B’s get 2s and 3s, the armor of unions and tenure has an exposed chink. Unions really hate objective measures of work quality. What do you do with the teacher who can’t teach at the higher level?</p>

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<p>I couldn’t disagree more. Take US History, for example. You could teach an AP US History course as basically a year-long AP test-prep course, very broad, fact-intensive, and shallow, and have your students score very well on the AP test. My impression is that’s exactly how it’s taught at most high schools. Or you could teach a deeper and richer course, more like a college history course, sacrificing some breadth of coverage for more intensive work on some periods or some aspects of historical inquiry, and larger research projects that involve more work with primary documents and more emphasis on original historical research, at the expense of some fact-memorization. Very likely the students in this latter course wouldn’t score as well on the AP test (except those that did an intensive AP test-prep on their own). Does that mean the teacher of the latter teacher is not as good a teacher, or that the students in the latter course didn’t do as well on an “objective measure” of what they learned? Nonsense. An AP US History course geared towards successful performance on the AP test is nothing like the history courses taught in America’s top colleges, where the comprehensive fact-intensive US History survey course was abandoned decades ago in favor of more narrowly-focused but more in-depth study, even at the intro level. The AP US History test measures something, but it’s not the quality of the high school history course, and it’s not the student’s readiness to do college-level work. The idea that the standard geared-to-the-test high school AP US history class is the equivalent of college work in history is pure bunk.</p>

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<p>Amazingly enough, I find myself in the unusual position of being in … complete agreement with Clinton. The AP tests were designed --and should be used solely – for PLACEMENT purposes. The use of AP tests in admissions should be frowned upon by all parties involved, and so should the boondoggle of granting credit towards college graduation. </p>

<p>Although the AP program had noble intentions, there is nothing noble in its current (ab)use. High schools should focus on educating high schoolers and stop pretending being something they are not, namely entities able to deliver a college education. Colleges should stand united in rejecting the AP courses as substitutes for a real college education. </p>

<p>The victims are the students who are robbed of the education they *should *receive in high school and in college. High schools should focus on building foundations for future education. Colleges should focus on the in-depth discovery. The mile-wide and one inch deep survey programs shouldn’t have a place in our education, let alone be revered as they are today.</p>

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<p>I couldn’t agree with you more “b”. Sadly, we’re finally seeing the decade of “kids taught to the test” arrive at high school level and sadly they are missing the point. The CB tests are optional at our high school where we have a minimal number of AP branded classes and the kids that opt out have a major project in lieu of taking “the test.” I think it’s the way our district copes with yet another standardized test. Gosh our kids take the PLAN, the PSAT, the ACT, some take the SAT and the SATIIs, the MME and AP tests and probably a few others I’ve forgotten…if we aren’t careful we’ll reduce our kids to numbers who are incapable or writing or original thought.</p>

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<p>I disagree whole-heartedly. I think it’s very good to consider AP scores in admissions.</p>

<p>First, colleges DO look at these scores in context. Indeed, the CB sells a school report to colleges which includes the # of kids taking each AP test at any given high school and the scores received. Now, I’m not going to pretend that high school AP courses are college level courses, but ANY additional OBJECTIVE information a college can get about a kid–particularly a kid from an “unknown” high school is-- IMO, a good thing. It’s one thing for a college admissions officer to read a glowing rec from a teacher at a high school he’s never had any previous contact with saying that Janie Jones is the “best history student I’ve ever taught” and another for the same admissions officer to see that Janie received 5s on the US history and European history exams–and nobody else from her high school did better than a 3. Not only does this tell a college that Janie knows some history, it also tells the college that Janie can write. AP exams do test writing ability in a way that SATII exams just don’t. </p>

<p>Moreover, some AP courses don’t really “match up” with SATII exams. An AP score is in a sense another subject test in such cases. Art history comes to mind. I know a young woman who was passionately interested in the subject. Without taking a course, she took the AP exam and got a 5–without any studying. Writing “I’m really interested in art history and that’s why I am applying to Prestige U which has one of the best art history programs in the US” when you’ve never taken any AP course or any other course work might be viewed skeptically by an admissions officer who thinks Janie might be inventing her interest in the subject. Doing it with a score of 5 on the AP exam in art history makes the claim that it is a passion for that subject which has lead to the application a lot more believable. </p>

<p>Additionally, there are kids who struggle with a subject and then “get” it. Nonetheless their final grade will include the low test scores they received before they “got it.” So a kid might struggle mightily in a subject like calculus, but grasp it by the end of the course. His/her overall grade for the year might be a B but a 5 on the AP BC Calc will convince a college that the kid DID learn the material by the end. The 5 better reflects the knowledge he has of the subject by the end of the year than the B grade which includes a rocky first semester. </p>

<p>There are kids who learn some subjects on their own. A friend of my kid’s was a genius in science. Due to a scheduling conflict, he was unable to take physics, so he studied it on his own his junior year. He took the physics B and C exams and scored 5s on both. I think that’s pretty darn impressive and I don’t see why that should NOT have been considered in the admissions decision at the colleges to which he applied. </p>

<p>Finally, at all too many high schools, there are some kids who are penalized because they just won’t “play the game.” Some teachers dislike kids who challenge them in the classroom. Others are influnced by what they know about the child’s family. I once taught in a summer program. One of the kids–a really nice kid–was in way over his head. Yet, he had glowing teacher recs and great grades. It came out that he was from a very large family from a small town. The kids were great kids and one of them had gone on to be valedictorian of the flagship state U. There was a “halo” effect–the teachers obviously were influenced by the fact that this is another of the kids from that great family. Put into a summer program where nobody knew anything about his family, it was readily apparent that the kid was NOT the academic star his teachers thought he was. </p>

<p>There have been several studies in which teachers were asked to grade essays. The names of the authors of the essays were changed. Jennifer and Michael got better grades than kids with odd names. Teachers aren’t perfect and some are infuenced by the fact that they just don’t LIKE some kids. </p>

<p>So, all in all, I think it’s a really good thing when colleges DO consider AP scores in admissions.</p>

<p>To those who say American kids are “over tested”–I agree. However, given the grade inflation in the typical US high school–with such atrocities as 40% of the class graduating with straight As–I think it’s understandable that colleges use the AP scores in the admissions process.</p>

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<p>We should not confuse the dangers of “teaching to the test” with the reliance for standardized testing. </p>

<p>Without appropriate control mechanisms, our education system will be assured to drop even further in mediocrity. We DO need to verify that children are taught the necessary basics of reading and writing as well as having basic math skills. In many cases, the decision to fight standardized testing comes from an attempt to hide a failing system and an inadequate curriculum taught by a subpar faculty. </p>

<p>Again, all we’d expect from our high schools is to graduate (more) students who should be able to start college without the need for extensive remediation.</p>

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<p>Sometimes the lower scores do reflect lower teacher quality. Lower scores aren’t always due to a teacher choosing to delve more deeply into one part of the subject area. Sometimes, it’s because a teacher does a lousy job at communicating the material. Or moves too slowly. Or teaches at too low a level. </p>

<p>Now I’m wondering what percentage of AP test-takers who receive “passing” grades are using those credits to reduce the time they spend as undergrads to less than four years. I remember one friend who pushed through MIT in 3 years, another who finished Cal Berkeley in 3.5. I’d think that most of the students who are pulling 4’s and 5’s on the AP tests are primarily using them to demonstrate rigor for admissions at selective schools, and will use the AP credits to place out of general ed requirements (as xiggi says, for placement purposes only). I’m also curious to know what colleges have the highest percentage of students using AP credits to accelerate getting their degree. </p>

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<p>Agreed, but APUSH geared towards the test might be just like the intro history courses taught at many of America’s other colleges. Consider a reasonably bright kid with a bunch of AP credits. Throw in a family that’s struggling to pay for a middling college. Why not use those AP credits to lop off a year?</p>