Are AP tests worth it if you want to go to Ivies?

[Metrical]

<p>

I’m currently the valedictorian. Guess what? I took the hardest courseload. And guess what? I’m going to do it all over again. But GUESS WHAT? I’d like to save my time and energy on a little something i’d like to call GRAD SCHOOL. Grad School is where you learn the COOL stuff everyone talks about. Undergrad does teach you this but GRAD SCHOOL IS WHERE THE PARTY IS AT. So I’d prepare myself for that. Anyhow, it’s a little off tangent to what we’re discussing. So i’ll leave my motives alone.

</p>

<p>Someone seems a little bitter. With that attitude you’re setting yourself for another 4 years of work with no fun, and no ‘gf’ . Yeah, my CC “stalking” did turn up an interesting thread. Maybe you should cheer up a bit, prepare to enjoy undergrad.</p>

[CalvinTBOD]

<p>

Besides, once you get to college, you’re going to realize that these classes serve as GPA boosters.

</p>

<p>Completely untrue. If you really want GPA boosters, overload on Spanish I or something. In fact, although AP does not give you credit in the Ivies, they allow you to skip certain classes. My brother attends Columbia University, and he got a 4 on the AP Chemistry exam in high school, and was not allowed to skip the intro course in college. And that’s the one class that’s killing him right now (he blames the professor; ironically, he blamed the AP Chem teacher for his lack of a perfect AP score back in high school). And he’s an Engineering major.</p>

[LoremIpsum]

<p>

he got a 4 on the AP Chemistry exam in high school, and was not allowed to skip the intro course in college. And that’s the one class that’s killing him right now

</p>

<p>You bring up an interesting point, Calvin: sometimes acing the AP test will allow you to bypass the introductory college class, which also happens to be designed to be the killer “weed-out” class that colleges sometimes use to get incoming freshman to change their majors early on. GenChem 1 is a typical example, the place where many aspiring pre-med and engineering majors come to discover that econ or history might be a more suitable alternative.</p>

[jengajenga117]

<p>Hahah i got 5 3s got into 4 Ivies and I am Asian</p>

[meursalt]

<p>

Seeing as you didn’t get into any of the Ivies you applied to, nor have qualified for these awards, you are in no position to judge what is considered prestigious. Not everyone qualifies, and those who do have an advantage (however small). </p>

<p>Also, what is left besides subjective and objective variables? AP Scores are objective variables. I thought that should be pointed out.

</p>

<p>I received the AP Scholar with Distinction. The argument in your first paragraph is therefore negated. </p>

<p>As for your second argument, what is left? Ethnicity, personal life situations, trauma, things done by God. </p>

<p>As for the replying of each argument for 1 post, I shall do whatever the hell i want.</p>

[meursalt]

<p>

Not sure what sort of painful experiences you have had with APs, but studying for AP exams is stressful for a month or two at most, and it has NEVER interfered with my ECs. Nor have I passed any up because I elected to take the exam. If you take the class, taking the exam is not that much more work.

</p>

<p>Is everybody YOU? I think not. That whole paragraph is therefore negated.</p>

[meursalt]

<p>

Hahah i got 5 3s got into 4 Ivies and I am Asian

</p>

<p>Good luck at Penn!</p>

<p>And might i add how contradictory of you to support my side that AP exams don’t help with admissions and were not worth the effort.</p>

[meursalt]

<p>

You bring up an interesting point, Calvin: sometimes acing the AP test will allow you to bypass the introductory college class, which also happens to be designed to be the killer “weed-out” class that colleges sometimes use to get incoming freshman to change their majors early on. GenChem 1 is a typical example, the place where many aspiring pre-med and engineering majors come to discover that econ or history might be a more suitable alternative.

</p>

<p>Well if you’re not designed to be a pre-med to BEGIN with, then it doesn’t matter if you get weeded out by the intro courses or you get weeded out by the MCAT’s. Sooner or later, you’ll realize that you are probably not premed or engineering worthy.</p>

[beatlesdisturbed]

<p>Metrical is absolutely right.
AP Exams are considered rigorous, and benefit you in the admissions process. It shows that you challenged yourself by taking the class AND the exam.
Self-studying is even better. It shows motivation, determination, and skill on your part. Again, it only helps you.
Don’t take the exam if it’s going to break the bank, but if you can afford it, take it. Mention that you couldn’t take the exams for financial reasons in your apps.</p>

[meursalt]

<p>

Completely untrue. If you really want GPA boosters, overload on Spanish I or something. In fact, although AP does not give you credit in the Ivies, they allow you to skip certain classes. My brother attends Columbia University, and he got a 4 on the AP Chemistry exam in high school, and was not allowed to skip the intro course in college. And that’s the one class that’s killing him right now (he blames the professor; ironically, he blamed the AP Chem teacher for his lack of a perfect AP score back in high school). And he’s an Engineering major.

</p>

<p>By refuting my argument that the basic classes are GPA boosters, you left another one open to attack. What good did it do him by taking the AP exam?</p>

[beatlesdisturbed]

<p>^You don’t have to use the credits. Plenty of students are going to start from scratch even though they don’t have to. I know people who ignore their AP results and start from scratch at college.</p>

[guitars101]

<p>Yes, AP’s are worth taking. It DOES show a school what you are capable of achieving thru an AP score. No, they do not take them into account as far as credit for classes, but they can be used as a pre-requisite to get into a tougher class. my son did this at Harvard. </p>

<p>All in all, why wouldn’t you want to show a college EVERYTHING that you are capable of and make your application more desirable?</p>

[Pancaked]

<p>

That’s a contradiction, my point was clearly that the person with the high AP scores (and the grades, perhaps I wasn’t clear on this?) would have the advantage. You completely rejected this point, and then supported it a few lines later.

It was just unclear. I interpreted your comment as one student aced the exams (presumably with average course grades) while the other student aced the class (presumably with average exam grades). </p>

<p>

Um, last I checked the “performance” in the AP class shows the ability to handle AP material. As you’ve stated, AP tests simply show how well you know the AP material, or in other words, how well you’ve mastered the AP material; oh wait, wasn’t that the point of the class?

I TOTALLY disagree. You’re acting like AP tests are some incredible test of intelligence. You can 5 about half of the AP exams with a month of reading Princeton Review. I’m not saying the scores are worthless, but they just aren’t a big deal. The key to succeeding in college is not being able to read a 200 page review book and score in the top 20% on a fairly simplified standardized test. The key is being able to keep up with coursework, the notes, the studying, the professor’s unique style of teaching, the quizzes, the exams. That’s what makes a successful college student. AP scores do add some credentials to your profile… But the class is significantly more important.</p>

<p>It’s like the grades vs SAT score. Elites could care less about your 2400 if you got crap grades in school. You aren’t a good student. However if you were at the top of your class, getting a 2100 SAT is fine. You’re a good student.</p>

<p>

Colleges do care. Look at LoremIpsum’s son, he clearly received an advantage for his AP scores.

You’re misinterpreting Lorem’s antecdote. The college valued this student’s significant drive for learning outside of school (presumably scheduling conflicts or lack of availability prevented him from taking the courses in school). The school is not saying, “We liked you because you got 5s on some AP exams, and that’s really important to us.” They’re saying “We liked that you didn’t [issue] hold you back and took your education into your own hands by successfully self-studying 4 exams.” </p>

<p>If you’re taking the class already, the exam loses most of its weight. In the absence of the class, the exam is the only way you can judge success.</p>

<p>I’m not going to debate about the money point. Money is NOT the reason why elites set high score standards or do not accept credit. Feel free to maintain your conspiracy theory about forcing kids into introductory classes at elite schools to gain profit, but you have zero evidence. </p>

<p>Some things for you to enjoy:</p>

<p>

A 2004 study of the University of California system found that “the number of Advanced Placement and honors courses taken in high school bears little or no relationship to student’s later performance in college.”

</p>

<p>

“AP scores aren’t that important in the admissions process. Having taken AP classes is far more valuable. MIT expects that you’ve taken the higher level courses, if they’re available – especially in math and science.”</p>

<p>Associate Director of Admissions
Massachusetts Institute of Technology

</p>

<p>

“AP exam scores are typically not available to admission committees for any advanced placement coursework taken in the senior year. AP tests are taken in May, and the results become available well beyond the admission decision-making process in the spring. AP test results are important, however, for placement
purposes, and students can obtain college credit and placement for strong AP test results. Carnegie Mellon does pay attention to the quality of a student’s selection of coursework. Advanced coursework – whether it is called AP, honors, or accelerated – does indicate that a student is enrolled in challenging coursework
and proceeding at an accelerated rate.”</p>

<p>Director of Admission
Carnegie Mellon University

</p>

<p>

"We prefer AP-level work and accord such work more weight in our evaluation of the curriculum an applicant has chosen. We have to have the decisions made before we receive a lot of the AP scores, so one’s having taken the course is probably more important.</p>

<p>Associate Director of Undergraduate Admissions
University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill

</p>

<p>

“This is a good one. There are a lot of misconceptions about a 3 on an AP being a ‘passing’ score and giving college credit. Carefully check each college’s policy, as many grant credit only for scores of 4 and 5. Still, even if you don’t present AP test scores, the fact that you took the challenging class (whether AP, IB, fourth year, or honors) will be noted and rewarded in the review process.”</p>

<p>Dean of Admissions
Lewis & Clark College

</p>

[meursalt]

<p>^^then what’s the point?</p>

[LoremIpsum]

<p>

You’re misinterpreting Lorem’s antecdote. The college valued this student’s significant drive for learning outside of school (presumably scheduling conflicts or lack of availability prevented him from taking the courses in school). The school is not saying, “We liked you because you got 5s on some AP exams, and that’s really important to us.” They’re saying “We liked that you didn’t [issue] hold you back and took your education into your own hands by successfully self-studying 4 exams.”

</p>

<p>That’s a fair analysis: these schools are looking for signs of self-motivation, and his self-designed and directed community service project was probably as critical or more critical than the self-studied APs. My son received 3 personalized letters, one from the regional rep at Brown who advocated for him in committee and one each from Amherst and Williams as part of the early-write acceptance process. All three letters specifically commented on his dedication to community service and two also mentioned his outside academic commitments. None of them commented on his exceptional stats (36.0 ACT, 240 PSAT, 1 in 400 class rank, etc.).</p>

<p>What can we conclude from this?

• That top grades and top stats are not enough by themselves (he was rejected by MIT, Yale and Princeton)
• That innovative self-directed community service projects appeal to these elite schools (my son’s community service project was still a work in progress and may not been far enough along to impress the other elite schools with his achievement)
• That self-directed academic study outside the usual classroom environment also appeals to these elite schools
• That one needs to establish a complete “package” which includes high class rank, high test scores, leadership in some ECs and a willingness to do something for one’s community (however you define community)</p>

<p>In summary, you need to show that you are smart enough to handle the workload and self-motivated enough to take advantage of all the opportunities the elite schools have to offer (ECs, research opportunities, community service as well as classroom interaction).</p>

<p>So while AP tests are only a small part of the puzzle, NOT taking them after completing the coursework does imply less dedication to academics: wouldn’t most seriously motivated students want to know if they really mastered the material they had just studied?</p>

<p>If you heard the NPR broadcast about Amherst’s admissions process, you’ll know that an application can sometimes hinge on a single poor comment in an essay. It obviously takes very little for one to be moved into the 80-90% reject pile, and not taking the actual AP exams could be seen as enough of a potential red flag to be moved out of consideration during the final rounds.</p>

[hockeyplayer777]

<p>@Meursalt. Go take all your annoying ■■■■■■■■ to reddit or someplace where it’s welcome. I have AP tests to study for and I don’t want to get on CC and just get annoyed reading all your crazy talk :)</p>

[Pancaked]

<p>Indeed. Though AP exam scores don’t carry much weight, neither does that typo in the crux of your essay that killed the flow and mood. At elite schools, everything adds up, and everything is meaningful. Competition is insane.</p>

<p>Will it make a difference? Probably not. Could it? Possibly. Why would you take that risk?</p>

<p>Lorem, it’s nice to finally hear some confirmation about that one essay comment- I’ve been saying for a while that one tiny little detail in an application or in an essay can throw an admission officer in or out of your favor. It’s completely unpredictable and often might not make sense, but when candidates are so highly qualified, subjective factors like that suddenly mean a lot more.</p>

<p>Anyways my point about taking the class and getting good grades being far more important than your AP score still stands.</p>

[Metrical]

<p>

Will it make a difference? Probably not. Could it? Possibly. Why would you take that risk?

</p>

<p>We kind of agree on this. As for the rest of your points on AP courses I won’t argue any further than to say that while AP exams were never as important as the main criteria (SATs/GPA/Essays/EC/Recommendation Letters), they are not completely worthless. I would never tell someone not to take it, if they are financially able to. It’s not worth the risk.
Admissions representatives did mention that AP exams are much less important than the actual exam grade. I never said this is not true (and your quotes do support the point) but rather that a holistic review process of the applications ensures that even the smallest and most seemingly insignificant details can change the decision for or against you. </p>

<p>I do have to respond to one other statement: </p>

<p>

I TOTALLY disagree. You’re acting like AP tests are some incredible test of intelligence. You can 5 about half of the AP exams with a month of reading Princeton Review. I’m not saying the scores are worthless, but they just aren’t a big deal. The key to succeeding in college is not being able to read a 200 page review book and score in the top 20% on a fairly simplified standardized test. The key is being able to keep up with coursework, the notes, the studying, the professor’s unique style of teaching, the quizzes, the exams. That’s what makes a successful college student. AP scores do add some credentials to your profile… But the class is significantly more important.

</p>

<p>The key to succeeding in college is up for debate, at least you can say that it is not clearly defined. If we assume the a successful college student has the high GPA (rather than the one walking away with having learned the most, simply because that’s not something I can quantitatively account for), then it reasonable to say that an AP grade is a fair way to judge said success. Many classes in college have 3 or 4 exams total, some don’t have “quizzes”; when a large portion of one’s grade is dependent on performance on exams that require a clear recollection of large amounts of information, it becomes more like the AP Exam than the AP Class. Some students at schools like MIT don’t even have to show up to class to ace it (my friends have been told this by interviewers and later confirmed it when they went to MIT).</p>

<p>Bottom line: While I do believe that taking AP classes is more important in college admissions that simply acing many exams, it is a fallacy to say that AP exams are unrepresentative of college courses. High School classes are nothing like college classes, and by that fact alone, neither are AP classes.</p>

[LoremIpsum]

<p>

Meursalt. Go take all your annoying ■■■■■■■■ to reddit or someplace where it’s welcome.

</p>

<p>While Meursalt certainly is rather combative, it is often helpful to have someone around willing to take the other side of an argument to provide detailed clarity of the issues for undecided readers.</p>

<p>Let’s cut Meursalt some slack: he apparently had some fairly decent stats, but missed getting into any of his target schools (perhaps a similar tone was reflected in his essays?). It was a brutal year and there are a lot of students like him, frustrated, in a panic, or praying to still get accepted off of some school’s waitlist. Meursalt’s biggest mistake was to not ladder his range of schools down to a more-reasonable acceptance rate in the 25-35% range. If you’re applying next year, don’t make that same mistake!</p>

[meursalt]

<p>Pardon me but i know at least a couple of people with my type of stats that were accepted into Harvard/Princeton/Penn. Then again, these people were first generation/had trauma afflicted to them. The trauma (death of family member) would certainly have been a great essay topic. I believe the reason for my denial is the tone of my essay, which could be construed as cocky. Lorem, are you willing to read it?</p>

<p>I think my stats were more than “fairly decent.”</p>