Are college students active participants in their education?

Parents Forum
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<p>George Leef, of the John William Pope Center, shares his deep concern that both college student achievement and student engagement in their studies get the short end of the stick in the trade-off between academics and the "college experience".</p>

<p>(His findings are based on the National Survey of Student Engagement.)</p>

<p>"NSSE accumulates data by sending a questionnaire to a large number of college freshmen and seniors. For the 2006 survey, more than one million were sent to students in the US and Canada. The schools those students attend range from the most prestigious to the least. Institutions, however, have to choose to participate and not all do. In North Carolina, all of the UNC campuses participated, along with 24 of the independent colleges and universities. (The two best-known of the independents, Duke and Wake Forest, chose not to participate.) Results are based on approximately 260,000 randomly selected responses... </p>

<p>On the whole, 66 percent of freshmen and 64 percent of seniors say that they devote 15 or fewer hours to class preparation per week. (The results are broken down by type of school, but there is surprisingly little difference in the amount of studying reported by students at top research universities and students at colleges offering only a baccalaureate degree.) Only 18 percent of freshmen and 20 percent of seniors report that they study 21 hours per week or more.</p>

<p>The average amount of study time is roughly half the amount that professors think is necessary for adequate progress. Students find that college is a fun environment and most of them decide that they don’t want class preparation to get in the way of other activities.</p>

<p>Another key question asked about writing assignments. The decline in the assignment of major papers seems confirmed in the student replies: 82 percent of freshmen and 48 percent of seniors say that they never have to write papers of 20 pages or more. Shorter papers are far more common, but more than a third report that they never or less than 5 times a year have to write papers of 5 pages or less. What we don’t know is how demanding those papers are – do they call for a good deal of research, or mostly personal feelings? – and how carefully they are graded. Even so, the NSSE figures show that many college students get little practice in writing. The weakness in writing ability among American graduates has been the subject of much criticism among employers, as the National Commission on Writing reported.</p>

<p>Student engagement or lack thereof is also reflected in the degree to which they discuss course ideas and material outside of class. Those who are mentally “plugged in” to their studies are likely to get into discussions outside of class often. Sadly, the NSSE data appear to show that large numbers of students are only marginally interested in their coursework since they say that they only “sometimes” or never discuss it. Even at top research universities, 45 percent of freshmen and 38 percent of seniors give those responses. In this respect, liberal arts colleges have the highest level of student engagement, with 62 percent of freshmen and 69 percent of seniors saying that they “often” or “very often” discuss course ideas outside of class.</p>

<p>Similarly, the data show that very few students engage with faculty members outside of class, with the great majority of them reporting that they never (43 percent for freshmen and 28 percent for seniors) or only “sometimes” (39 percent for freshmen and 45 percent for seniors) discuss class ideas with faculty members outside of class.</p>

<p>All in all, NSSE gives a picture of American college students that tells us that many appear to coast through their courses without putting in a great deal of effort. This view is entirely consistent with the data in the National Assessment of Adult Literacy (which I wrote about here) showing low and declining levels of literacy among college graduates.</p>

<p>In his revelatory book Beer and Circus, Murray Sperber quoted a University of Missouri student: “Most students here, except for the journalism majors, feel they don’t need to try hard [in classes] and they can get by and get their degree. You find that when you walk into your first class here….Most Mizzou students are satisfied with easy schoolwork because other things are more important to them, mostly partying and following the Tigers.”</p>

<p>NSSE confirms that that attitude toward college work is widespread." </p>

<p><a href="http://www.popecenter.org/clarion_call/article.html?id=1758%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.popecenter.org/clarion_call/article.html?id=1758&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>What a stupid opening question, with all apologies to the OP!</p>

<p>Of course, this depends on both the student and the college. And note (if you read the link) that some top colleges don't participate.</p>

<p>It is no surprise to me that many college students don't put much into their studies and disappoint the faculty. One only need read various posts on these boards to see that many students at less selective institutions are attending mostly for reasons other than education (OK, maybe the education gets equal billing?), instead there for fun, because it's expected by their parents etc. </p>

<p>And there's no doubt in my mind that many colleges, in their quest to keep enrollments up and please the customers, students, I suppose, don't go out of their way to overstress students with too much work.</p>

<p>These things are part of the reason it is so important to look carefully at the culture and academic climate of prospective colleges, lest one have a disappointing fit. Employers often know what comes out. Prospective students should, too.</p>

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<p>Parents of high-schoolers, I wouldn't be that disheartened by that report. If you value scholarship and your child values scholarship and that is a primary consideration in their search you will find great institutions for your child to attend. And I promise that some are even outside the top twenty. </p>

<p>I have written many posts on my D's god-awful preparation for college level writing (compared to her preparation in math and science) and her desire to attend a college that would require excellence in writing even for a science major. (Afraid of snakes? Major in Herpetology.) </p>

<p>In her search she concentrated on schools that were less than 10,000 students and many times preferred schools less than 2,000. Most of the schools she considered are LAC's so those are the schools I can talk about. I hope other parents will mention research institutions and master's level colleges. </p>

<p>I can say without any hesitation that the following liberal arts colleges are the polar opposite of the college experience reported by most of the students above. Hamilton, Rhodes, Centre, Scripps, Hendrix, and Millsaps all demand written competence, stress writing and communication skills in general and tell prospectives up-front that they are likely candidates for carpal tunnel syndrome. In fact even a brief gander at their websites will convince you that this is their primary focus. I am sure there are a hundred more, maybe two-hundred more that share the same values. You will not make it out of these schools without being able to read and write. </p>

<p>**I am positive that there are research U's that have similar values, some of which may be state schools.<a href="That%20ought%20to%20buy%20me%20some%20time.;">/b</a>)</p>

<p>My D chose to attend Rhodes. Her current schedule is two science course with labs, a writing course and a interdisciplinary "Search" course. She has been required to write 9 papers so far all of which have been graded on a scale apparently designed by the Marquis de Sade on one of his "bad humour" days. She reports that in one class of 15 there are no A's yet at all. By anyone. In the other, maybe one. (And we're talking on any assignment, not average.) </p>

<p>As to involvement out of class, she has received 4 personal e-mails unsolicited from professors in the last 2 weeks, one asking her to consider a volunteer placement the prof cared about and felt she was uniquely talented for, one asking her to be a research assistant next semester, one "teasing" her about her very high grades in his class, and one congratulating her on her performance in classroom discussions and the class in general and urging her to consider his sub-field. The experiences of her friends similarly situated have been...uhh.. similar. LOL. (Maybe I need the writing course).</p>

<p>I think the key is to place those values high on your parental radar during your search and if they are also high on the student's radar then I think you'll be amazed at what you'll find some colleges are doing. I know I was very impressed. </p>

<p>As always, just my opinion.</p>

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<p>Like Cur says - check the schools out.<br>
One of my DD's profs called DD on her cell to inquire as to where a certain restaurant they had talked about it the past, was located. I've been on campus and met several professors, all of whom know DD by name, and have obviously spoken with her about things both inside and outside classroom; obviously know her as an individual and as a student scholar. I KNOW she has written numerous papers - including one 43-page whopper she churned out as a sophmore, to finish an incomplete she took for health reasons. Yes, I'm sure there are lots of schools where kids don't spend as much time on academics, don't "engage" with profs, don't discuss class things outside of class - but that has certainly not been my kid's experience!</p>

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<p>If you are comfortable-</p>

<p>Name names, anxiousmom. ;) It's valuable to those still looking.</p>

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<p>Daughter's at Rice U. Okay - it won't let me edit above. I'm not surprised at some of the results of the survey- and I do think many kids go to school just to party and get by with the smallest amount of work. But I'd be surprised if the "15 hours of less" of studying applies to science and/or engineering majors - wherever they go to school. This would be more useful data if it wasn't self-reported.</p>

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<p>* I'd be surprised if the "15 hours of less" of studying applies to science and/or engineering majors *</p>

<p>During finals, my bio major daughter at Reed, slept in the library, didn't even go back to her room ( which apparently is not unusual- which is why the library smells the way it does during end of term)</p>

<p>Yes I know there are other schools where you can graduate without writing a paper- not at Reed-
It is good to check that info out however- if the education is at least as important as the piece of sheepskin ;)</p>

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<p>"If you value scholarship and your child values scholarship and that is a primary consideration in their search you will find great institutions for your child to attend. And I promise that some are even outside the top twenty...I think the key is to place those values high on your parental radar during your search and if they are also high on the student's radar then I think you'll be amazed at what you'll find some colleges are doing. I know I was very impressed."</p>

<p>Absolutely, and thank you Curmudgeon because that has to be one of the best assessments of how we should think about a good "fit" that I have come across on CC - after all, the college experience is all about finding the right balance between the academic and the social. </p>

<p>As to the OP question, I don't take offense at all simply because according to Leef this is the million dollar question behind the National Survey of Student Engagement (NSSE). The NSSE is a program "designed to measure the extent to which students are active participants in their education. If there is evidence that students are really engaged in their college work, that is at least indicative of educational progress – and vice versa." Whether it really does do that is quite another question.</p>

<p>BTW, many of the participating colleges in NSSE are no doubt on CC parent's and student's radar. </p>

<p><a href="http://nsse.iub.edu/nsse_2007/regional.cfm?stateabbr=tx%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://nsse.iub.edu/nsse_2007/regional.cfm?stateabbr=tx&lt;/a>
<a href="http://nsse.iub.edu/nsse_2006/2006-colleges.cfm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://nsse.iub.edu/nsse_2006/2006-colleges.cfm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Last year, S spent 15-20 hours per week on one course alone, but it was a notoriously difficult one. This year, he does not quite have the same workload, but he still spends more than 20 hours a week on class prep, not taking into account a couple of study groups. His school does not participate in NSSE.</p>

<p>I have noticed a tendency over the years for profs to assign shorter but more papers which means that many of these papers do not require extra research. They are not, however, of the "what I feel about this week's readings" variety. S has two short papers coming up, and the prompts require a great deal of thought and close reading to be answered. </p>

<p>The reason for the shorter and more frequent papers is that profs want to help their students write better. If they assign a long term paper that is due at the end of the class, they can comment all they want--the student may not pick up the paper, or, if s/he does pick it up and read the comments, will not have a chance to act on them and improve his/ her writing. In upper-level classes in the humanities and social sciences, longer papers are assigned, but many students, especially in math/science majors, will not be taking those.</p>

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<p>Marite, excellent point about writing shorter and more frequent writing assignments - practice does make perfect and at the same time short assignments encourage the development highly desirable skills - to be able to express oneself succintly - short essays do indeed require great thought and effort on the part of students.</p>

<p>The following is from a recent Inside Higher Ed article on the NSSE study:</p>

<p>"NSSE is one of the few standardized measures of academic effectiveness that most officials across a wide range of higher education institutions agree offers something of value.Yet NSSE does not release institution-specific data, leaving it to colleges to choose whether to publicize their numbers.</p>

<p>Colleges are under mounting pressure, however, to show in concrete, measurable ways that they are successfully educating students, fueled in part by the recent release of the report from the Secretary of Education’s Commission on the Future of Higher Education, which emphasizes the need for the development of comparable measures of student learning. In the commission’s report and in college-led efforts to heed the commission’s call, NSSE has been embraced as one way to do that. In this climate, will a greater number of colleges embrace transparency and release their results?</p>

<p>Anywhere between one-quarter and one-third of the institutions participating in NSSE choose to release some data, said George Kuh, NSSE’s director and a professor of higher education at Indiana University at Bloomington. But that number includes not only those institutions that release all of the data, but also those that pick and choose the statistics they’d like to share.</p>

<p>In the “Looking Ahead” section that concluded the 2006 report, the authors note that NSSE can “contribute to the higher education improvement and accountability agenda,” teaming with institutions to experiment with appropriate ways to publicize their NSSE data and developing common templates for colleges to use. The report cautions that the data released for accountability purposes should be accompanied by other indicators of student success, including persistence and graduation rates, degree/certificate completion rates and measurements of post-college endeavors...</p>

<p>Participating public colleges are already obliged to provide the data upon request, but Miller said private institutions, which also rely heavily on public financial aid funds, should share that obligation.</p>

<p>Kuh said that some colleges’ reluctance to publicize the data stems from a number of factors, the primary reason being that they are not satisfied with the results and feel they might reflect poorly on the institution.</p>

<p>In addition, some college officials fear that the information, if publicized, may be misused, even conflated to create a rankings system. Furthermore, sharing the data would represent a shift in the cultural paradigm at some institutions used to keeping sensitive data to themselves, Kuh said.</p>

<p>“The great thing about NSSE and other measures like it is that it comes so close to the core of what colleges and universities are about — teaching and learning. This is some of the most sensitive information that we have about colleges and universities,” Kuh said.</p>

<p>But Miller said the fact that the data get right to the heart of the matter is precisely why it should be publicized. “It measures what students get while they’re at school, right? If it does that, what’s the fear of publishing it?” Miller asked. “If someone would say, ‘It’s too hard to interpret,’ then that’s an insult to the public.” And if colleges are afraid of what their numbers would suggest, they shouldn’t participate in NSSE at all, Miller said.</p>

<p>However, Douglas Bennett, president of Earlham College in Indiana and chair of NSSE’s National Advisory Board, affirmed NSSE’s commitment to opening survey participation to all institutions without imposing any pressure that they should make their institutional results public. “As chair of the NSSE board, we believe strongly that institutions own their own data and what they do with it is up to them. There are a variety of considerations institutions are going to take into account as to whether or not they share their NSSE data,” Bennett said.</p>

<p>However, as president of Earlham, which releases all of its NSSE data and even releases its accreditation reports, Bennett said he thinks colleges, even private institutions, have a professional and moral obligation to demonstrate their effectiveness in response to accountability demands — through NSSE or another means a college might deem appropriate."</p>

<p><a href="http://insidehighered.com/news/2006/11/13/nsse%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://insidehighered.com/news/2006/11/13/nsse&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>I concur with nmd's second line -- it depends on the school and the caliber of the students. What's important to remember is that there are only ~200 selective schools out of the 2500 four-year institutions. Many colleges, including many state U's, accept students with a C+ average. Earning a C+ in the vast majority of the 35,000 high schools (college prep classes) just means that one has to show up and barely do a modicum of HW -- definitely less than 15 hours per week. So, why would kids put in more time in college?</p>

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<p>Let's be careful how we judge preparation. God forbid that any poor soul would have to read one of the 20 page papers I wrote as a 20 year old. Oh mercy! Pass the Pepto Bismal.</p>

<p>I'm sure your children are all brilliant but most of them don't have that much to say including my own. Unsure of that? Read the student forums for 15 minutes. The 20 year old brain is not fully developed. It does not have the reasoning and analytical skills of an adult. It is unusually attracted to risk--which we all know isn't a good thing for a 20 year old writer unless it's a poetry class.</p>

<p>Personally, I use reading as a barometer of education. How many pages has he read this week? What is he reading? Is it challenging? Is he reading unassigned material too? Is he applying his reading to his understanding? Has his understanding progressed to a more sophisitcated plane? </p>

<p>Don't flame me, but I don't think he needs a professor calling him or emailing him in order to make intellectual leaps. He's finally developed an email relationship with his world-reknowned intimidating advisor (thanks marite ;) ) but prior to that he was inspired by great lectures and seminars and inhaling books of all sorts--only about 1/4 of which were assigned reading. He reads non-stop when he's home too. He visibly quivers when we take him into a bookstore. </p>

<p>Uh, yup, that's worth the $45K.</p>

<p>Never the most confident writer, he seems to have overcome all hesitation via his internship and part-time job as a quasi-foreign newspaper correspondent. Still, I am more interested in talking to him about what he's read than reading the 15 page policy papers he wrote for his job or his 500 level course. </p>

<p>Maybe when he's in grad school he will write something that I don't already know. Anyway, that's my two cents.</p>

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<p>cheers, </p>

<p>who said these schools surveyed cost $45k/year? I bet many of the less selectiv members of the survey panel are half that.</p>

<p>And that's my point. There are many colleges that will take average students and let them slide by for four years. And it is those same students that end up in dead end jobs and careers so often written about in the popular media.</p>

<p>Of course some of those same kids will go on to great careers in fields that don't need a lot of high level educational prep. But they'll be different paths than those kids that do well (by doing more than 15 yours a week homework?) at more rigorous institutions.</p>

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<p>I think BB's post draws an even more pessimistic assessment of college education than Leef's. It also misses the whole point of the NSSE survey - which is to refute the deeply engrained conventional wisdom that reputation and related assumptions about "the caliber" of a student body paint an accurate picture of the quality of education at any postsecondary institution whether public, private, elite or not. When it comes right down to it, the academic reputation of a college or university reveals very little about the quality of learning that its students experience. NSSE findings- as well as Leef's interpretation of these findings - challenge the conventional view of college quality. Isn't this why USNWR, and other ranking systems that rate colleges largely on the basis of their institutional resources and public reputations, come under constant fire and have to be continually revamped? A school's academic reputation as judged by others says very little about how much active learning, student-faculty interaction, and a supportive environment characterize a campus. </p>

<p>The NSSE study does focus squarely on whether or not colleges are using their resources to help students learn and get the most out of school. Several posts did hone in on the significance of this type of information (as well as the conclusions that educators may draw from it) for students and parents to use in the college search process. One would also hope that this type of assessment gives campuses additional insight into the dynamic of effective teaching and student learning. Whether our kids attend an Ivy or a "lower ranked" private or public U - isn't this precisely what we want for our now adult off-spring? If not, why is college attendance at a 4 year liberal arts institution, which entails great expense of resources, supposedly a necessary step between highschool and being flung out into the workforce?</p>

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<p>Sorry, newmass. I did not intend to open up the state vs private argument or debate the merits of the data. My sole point was to offer a counterpoint to the 20 page paper threshold.</p>

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<p>Cheers:</p>

<p>I'm glad I inspired your S to go talk to his advisor. Now, if I could inspire mine to do the same when he is not absolutely required to...:(</p>

<p>But you're right, I don't care to read the papers he's written, and as for the problem sets... they might as well be Arabic.</p>

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<p>cheers, of D's 9 papers zero have been 20 pages or longer. Most, maybe all, in the 5 to 10 page range, none of which were "what I believe" papers. All have required sources and study. I find the 20 page question pretty useless also.</p>

<p>I do OTOH find that prof/student interaction both in and out of class and both formal and informal is something that I value and my D likes very much . I don't believe she needs it for validation as she's a pretty confident cuss.</p>

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<p>Our S estimates that he spends 6 hours a day outside of class in a normal week -- so that would be at least 30 hours per week. The two weeks prior to Thanksgiving were much more intense than that, with the comment coming home that he thinks he has done more work this semester than in all four years of high school combined (at UVA, majoring in systems engineering) . He even brought books home for the Thanksgiving break and has used them! Despite the engineering major, he seems to be writing a paper every week. I'm not sure about the contact with professors, but he seems to know (and like) the tutors well.</p>

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<p>Here's an earlier thread on this topic:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=115867%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=115867&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>It's all about preparation. In my state, nearly half (50%) of Cal State Frosh (over 40,000) require remediation in math and/or english. To expect them to write a ten page paper (much less a 20 pager) is folly.</p>