<p>i will need a lot of financial aid and most of the colleges i am applying to say they are need-blind, including columbia- my first choice, but is this true?</p>
<p>Personally I have no idea, but last year I had a teacher who said that she was friends with a person on the admission board of brown. She asked him how they go through the application and such and he said how the first thing they do is separate the people into two piles, those who need aid, and those who do not. Brown is a school that claims to be need blind. Anyways, I don't think either of them have any reason to lie.</p>
<p>If they want you - they'll get you there. I have a friend at Penn who said it was cheaper for her to attend Penn than Minnesota State with the package they gave her. </p>
<p>Apply and find out. I think the only Ivy that isn't 110% need blind, is Brown.</p>
<p>i know some schools arent for internationals, but what about domestic students?</p>
<p>this is what i found on brown's website:</p>
<p>Need-Blind Admission</p>
<p>Beginning with the Class of 2007, Brown implemented a need-blind admission policy for all US citizens and permanent residents. </p>
<p>"Need-blind admission" simply means that your ability to pay for your education will not be a factor in the admission decision. Its basic premise is that a family's financial circumstances will not be considered when reviewing a student's application for undergraduate admission. Family and individual circumstances are considered only with respect to financial aid.</p>
<p>This policy has allowed us to further open our doors to students who had previously thought an Ivy League education was out of reach. Brown is committed to maintaining a student body that is strong in intellect, diverse in character, and driven to achieve. Any student who possesses these qualities should have the opportunity to study at Brown. The need-blind policy further underscores this commitment.</p>
<p>Through scholarships, loans, and work study, 100% of an admitted student's financial need will be met.</p>
<p>O ok, so maybe they weren't 100% need blind before which explains everything.</p>
<p>First of all, they will all admit, on closer examination, that they are not need-blind. They know they take "developmental admits" ahead of everyone else all the time. They also accept legacies (who, by virtue of their education than anything else will be wealthier, and they know it) at a much higher rate. Thirdly, it is always amazing how, in April, when a school finds itself competing for a candidate, more "need" can be found. Fourthly, some so-called "need-blind" schools - Amherst is the prime example - have placed heavy emphasis on promoting economic diversity - well, they can't promote economic diversity of the student body in admissions unless they know the financial status of the applicants, AND ACT UPON IT.</p>
<p>Each school has a highly trained, professional staff. They know about zip codes - and they use them for recruiting purposes. They know about schools, and who attends. They know who plays squash, lacrosse, rides horses, spends time in Europe - the list is endless. They don't need to know the financial status of every applicant to know the kind of class they are admitting - and they don't make mistakes. They have a financial aid budget, and every year the percentage of students requiring aid who are admitted mirrors the one from the year before - as it should. These are professional people with a budget, and they know what they are doing. So give them some credit for what they do - at this level, they pretty much get the class they want.</p>
<p>so are my chances lower if i apply for financial aid?</p>
<p>Hi Mini,</p>
<p>I've missed you. </p>
<p>One of the biggest reasons that the schools are not need blind; they ask you right on the first page of the application if you are applying for financial aid and request that you check the box.</p>
<p>that makes me kind of sad.. :( i dont even know yet how much aid i need, and the worst part is that the other person from my school who will be appying to columbia has a library named after his father at columbia.. anyway thanks for your help parents</p>
<p>I don't think lying is the correct term. Rather, I think that colleges and the layman often have different concepts of what "need-blind" means.</p>
<p>Technically, "need-blind" means that a college financial aid office has the authority from the board of managers to increase financial aid spending above budgeted levels to meet the needs of all admitted students. It doesn't mean that somebody won't get fired if they routinely go over budget!</p>
<p>In practice, no "need-blind" school is truly "need blind" in the sense that they have an unlimited budget. Need blind schools have a financial aid budget and the admissions office is expected to enroll an overall class that meets that budget through a very consistent mix of full-fare customers and financial-aid customers. Or, in plain English, it's a lot easier to be "need blind" when you know that half of your students pay the full $40,000.</p>
<p>How does this impact admissions chances for the average student? Probably not that much. There is perhaps some advantage to being a full-fare customer when it comes to choosing between two equally qualified mid-pack applicants, but a lot of that sorts itself out in the ED round. Conversely, wealthy students may be held to a higher standard when evaluating test scores, grades, and EC opportunities.</p>
<p>The question really is to what extent need impacts admissions in so-called "need-blind" schools, and the answer is "hugely" but not necessarily as applied to any individual candidate. In that way, things remain uncertain.</p>
<p>But it IS possible (if you are willing to work with the data from Harvard and Williams and abstract from it), to know the economic composition of any entering class pretty well. Both Harvard and Williams report that 70% of those receiving financial aid come from the top 20% of the population (incomes roughly $100k and above), but below the top 5% (roughly $150k and above, and who don't receive need-based aid.)</p>
<p>Take any "need-blind" school, and go to Princeton Review on-line or a school's common data set and find the percentage of students who are receiving need-based aid. For sake of argument, let's say around 50% (like Swarthmore - actually this example will look very much like Swarthmore or Princeton.) So, 50% of of students come from families with incomes of $150k and above. 70% of the remaining 50% come from families with incomes $100k and above, or 35%. 10% receive Pell Grants (incomes of $40k and below). This leaves 5% of the student body from the broad middle class - family incomes from $40-$100k.</p>
<p>So this is what the hypothetical class looks like:
50% with family incomes above $150k
35% with family incomes from $100k - $150k.
5% with family incomes from $40k - $100k.
10% with family incomes below $40k.</p>
<p>So what does this mean in terms of admissions? Can't really tell - sure would have an impact in my town, where a family income of $100k or above is a real anomaly (and, sure enough, virtually the only students accepted at HYPS from my town are athletes). What we can tell is that only 5% of the student body comes the middle 50% (broadly speaking) of American families in income. My town's vals and sals, etc. would be competing for that narrow band of admits that make up only 5% of the college's population!</p>
<p>never knew college admissions would be this technical and strange!</p>
<p>It's really not very technical. Once a school has decided that 50% (or 60%) of students will be "full-freight" customers, is going to compete for football or hockey players or rowers or crosscountry runners, is going to hold some places for low-income minority students, and will admit legacies at a higher rate, there really isn't a lot of "play" in the admissions game.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>so are my chances lower if i apply for financial aid?<<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>What they are trying to tell you is not necessarily. Now if you go to a small school, and your classmate's family has a building named for them that was built in the last 5 years, it may well matter, but it may not - you may still have attributes that will want Columbia to accept you as well.
You just can't let that worry you, BUT, you also shouldn't fall totally in love with any 1 school, regardless of whether you need aid or not. Figure out what it is you love about Columbia, and find other schools that share some of that special something - good luck.</p>
<p>thanks for the encouragement, my school is actually a well-known public school, and i checked past records and people with lower stats etc.. have gotten in, this year someone i know who did not participate significantly in school activities, didnt win any awards etc.. got into columbia, an athelete was also admitted and so was the library-donor's elder daughter (he has two kids)</p>
<p>You should definitely apply if you want to go there. Your chances will not be determined by your need for aid. </p>
<p>Consult "Equity and excellence in American Higher Education" by Bowen, Kurzweil, Tobin, and Pichler. They reveiwed admissions decisions for a large number of students applying to a large set of selective colleges. I think Columbia was included, the group definitely included several Ivies. They concluded that once they controlled for the standard qualifications (grades, test scores, etc) need did not influence the admissions decisions. So need blind does mean exactly that. </p>
<p>I am sure it was true that any of these schools would give a second look to someone who could contribute a huge amount of money, but there are so few of these people that they do not show up on average admissions statistics.</p>
<p>Most importantly, there is nothing you can do about your financial status, so you should apply where you want to go.</p>
<p>Admissions to elite colleges is enough of a lottery that I don't think anyone should worry about the nuances of need blind admissions. Just assume you will NOT get accepted and focus on your back up strategy instead. If you DO get accepted, be surprised and happy and hope their definition of need fits your family's definition. I've seen too many cases where a lower income (lower in this case is below 100K/year!) does not realize how high the family contribution is going to be, even with a college meeting all need. </p>
<p>Interestingly, there are other ways in which colleges spin and control this process. Most kids from prep schools will not be fin aid candidates. So, a number of colleges have (i) special tours for prep school kids (ii) on campus non alum interviews (iii) higher level school visits - perhaps the director visits, not a new admissions officer.</p>
<p>A few years ago, the Daily Princetonian had a series of articles about the decline in jewish students at Princeton. The reason appeared to be a decision on the part of Fred Hargadon, admissions dean, to de-emphasize recruiting from more urban schools, focusing instead on more traditional surburban and southern schools. </p>
<p>In a similar vein, as others suggested, it is easy to identify high SES schools, target them for visits and recruiting efforts etc. Heck, if they can find athletes at these schools, so much the better.</p>
<p>Want to shape the class a different way? Just emphasize community service on applications. You just cut your fin aid requirements in half...</p>
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i checked past records and people with lower stats etc.. have gotten in, this year someone i know who did not participate significantly in school activities, didnt win any awards etc.. got into columbia, an athelete was also admitted and so was the library-donor's elder daughter (he has two kids)
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<p>I think that one of the biggest miststeps that students on CC make is comparing themselves to others in terms of stats. Yes, stats is an objective criteria that may get you over a hurdle, but the admission process at selective schools, including Columbia is not a purely stat driven, but rather a wholistic process. </p>
<p>Colleges build classes based on their institutional mission and the institutional mission trumps everything. However the institutional mission changes based on what the school is trying to achieve. Regarding the person with the "lower stats" the school would be remiss in accepting any student nor do they take students who do not have a pretty decent chance of graduating. So despite their stats, or what one feels are significant ECs or lack their of, the college believes that this student has something to offer the class. At the end of the day the adcoms as representatives of the college are making te final decision. Stats are also considered in context of one environment. To get caught up in the minutia of some ones application, you would drive your self bonkers.</p>
<p>At its basic level being need blind means that having a finanical need (regardless of the amount) will not be held against you in the admissions process. The biggest disconnect comes with financial need as some schools meet 100% of your demonstrated need (this "need" can be met in a variety of ways) and the school determines your need which usually differs from what the family believes is their need.</p>
<p>Columbia will meet your demonstrated need as they calculate your need to be. If it is not enough, you can and should ask for a financial review as the worse that can happen is that your package does not change.</p>
<p>All you can do is toss your hat in the ring and show your best self. If you do not apply, you have a close to 100% chance of not being admitted.</p>
<p>maybe i am looking at this too narrowly, i do have some safeties and the option of a gap year, but even being realistic i so badly want to go and get admitted. i am so happy i found cc because it gave me a good dose or reality and the competition, before i thought that my ecs were enough to get me into a good college, but now i am going to emphasise other parts of my application.</p>