<p>Here's a question from the ignorant mother of a junior. Some schools say they are "needs blind", which I assume means that they don't look at a student's financial profile before determining whether to accept him (or her). I thought that all schools had to be "needs blind"? Can a school that is not "needs blind" actually favor students who can self-pay?</p>
<p>Yes, they can. This is because schools do not have unlimited funds (no, not even H; which is incidently, need blind) and therefore cannot pay the fees of every admitted student (imagine if that were to happen!). So, in a school that is not need blind, if two candidates are of similar quality, the one that can pay would likely be admitted. </p>
<p>"Need blind" usually refers to domestic students, for exmaple, at College A, if you are an American citizen, your financial status is considered separatley from your application, but if you are an international student, then your financial status can be a determinant in your admission. Incase anyone wants to know, some U.S unies (Ivy and others) consider Canadians and Mexicans under the need blind policy, so take that into consideration when applying (if you're from those countries).</p>
<p>colleges that ARe need blind may gap. So you might be admitted, but still not receive the $$ you need to help attend.
Other schools may not be need blind but meet 100% of need
some like H may be need blind and may meet 100% of need, but that need is their version of EFC, and aid package is made up of loans, workstudy and grants-</p>
<p>A school can meet 100% of your demonstrated need by giving you all loans. so check your schools website for the average financial aid.</p>
<p>Sorry to be cynical but need blind is, in my opinion, an outright lie. If you have the opportunity to access some back issues of those college guides that state the percentage of students getting aid and how much they receive you will clearly see the pattern doesn't vary much from year to year. Check out the ivys with the largest amount of $$. like HYP and you'll see around 60% end up without aid. Year in year out. Totally random? Need Blind? Get real! My unsubstantiated guess is they say we have X amount of slots we can fund - then will fill the rest with kids who can pay. But I've never heard anyone in admissions admit that.</p>
<p>I haven't seen any evidence that Ivies do what teefore suggests. What I have seen evidence of is that Ivies hae a very hard time attracting and finding low income students who qualify for admission.</p>
<p>Most low income students attend low quality schools that have lots of uncertified teachers, ill equipped labs, few AP/honors/IB courses, and GCs who are more knowledgeable about how to help low performing, troubled students than how to help students who are doing well academically and have the potential to go to an Ivy.</p>
<p>If you use a search engine, you will find plenty of articles written in the last year in which Ivy adcoms and similar people discuss how hard it is to attract low income students, and what they are doing to try to raise the numbers of such students at their colleges.</p>
<p>Info from one such article was posted within the last 5 days on the Harvard board and on the Parents' Forum here on CC.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, yes, there are plenty of schools that favor students who can full pay. If "full pay" means that a student's family also will fully pay for something like a new library or athletic center, all colleges will favor a student who meets their minimum admission standards and has parents willing to make that kind of donation.</p>
<p>Most colleges in the US are needblind for US citizens. Few are for foreign students. Those schools that are not needblind tend to be the private schools who are targeting their dollars to get the students they most want. However, needblind and giving full need are two different things. There are not that many colleges that are need blind AND give full demonstrated need. Many of those colleges are our most selective schools and they often give some leeway to those kids from disadvantaged backgrounds.</p>
<p>Northstarmom - sorry for my rant! As I stated, I have no substantiation for my opinion - just an observation of the numbers. And yes, I fully agree that it may be difficult to find lower income students to meet the criteria of an ivy education - since as you stated, they often don't have the advantages or the resources (SAT prep, AP classes etc) that middle and upper income households provide. One final note...all that being said, we must remember that private colleges are BUSINESSES, plain and simple. They may be non-profit but they are businesses none the less. And as such, they must find a way to produce income. Do they manipulate the admissions process to achieve that - no idea.</p>
<p>I'll weigh in here as well.</p>
<p>Working at one of these schools (might I suggest the acronym should be MYHP), there is NO correlation or cross-comparison between admissions and financial aid. Refuting teefore's claim, when we say we are need-blind, we are need blind. At MIT, over 50% of our students qualify for need-based grant from the Institute (more qualify for other types of aid, but I will agree with NorthStarMom that we all struggle to recruit as many low income applicants as we can). Over 75% of our students receive some kind of scholarship (inclusive of those provided by outside agencies -- like Gates, National Merit, etc). And if you define financial aid to include students who work (since term-time employment is traditionally defined as financial aid), I can bump the number as high as 90%. And at MIT, we are need-blind for all populations (international and domestic).</p>
<p>But this is not a numbers game, the true picture is this: we admit those who are qualified and we aid those who need it. End of story.</p>
<p>I have worked, in my 15+ year history in financial aid, at schools who award full-need and those who gap, and my experience is that more schools ARE need-blind (at least when it comes to US citizens) than aren't. In fact, I have never worked at a need-conscious school (and that includes mid-tier schools, local colleges, and more exclusive privates). Need-conscious admissions is a rarity in my experience. If it ever is used, it is used sparingly (for International Students or for students on waitlist as an example), but again in my experience, I have never worked at a college which practices this form of admissions.</p>
<p>Much more common, however, is the practice of using you financial aid packaging strategy to build a class. Many schools use merit-based funding or other tools (merit-based financial aid) to help mold and sculpt the class they desire. This is what I would call admissions-aware financial aid. But that is a subject for a whole other post.</p>
<p>I also want to add that I worked in the admissions office of a school that admits that it is need award. However, during the admissions process the decisions are made in a need blind fashion, with accepted students marked as "A", "B" or "C". The lists then go to financial aid where the packages are allocated in that order. Only then, are cuts made with decisions made from the "C" group as to who is gapped, who gets some grants, who has to be cut. So the decision making is really need blind except for the tail end of the procedure and only for those kids who are in the "C" category. Since just marking the box for financial aid does not indicate how much aid a student needs, not even if he is eligible for any, it really can't have much impact on what it will cost to accept such a student. A throrough analysis is necesserary first, and that is done after the student is slated for admissions consideration.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Since just marking the box for financial aid does not indicate how much aid a student needs, not even if he is eligible for any, it really can't have much impact on what it will cost to accept such a student.
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I agree, after all lots of applicants file a FAFSA not because they need aid, but just to be in the running for possible merit money. So colleges should know that checking the FA box doesn't necessarily mean you need money.</p>
<p>However my husband--the cynic--claims that grades, scores and talent have little bearing on acceptance, all you really need is a nice fat EFC as bait and all the fish will come swarming.....</p>
<p>I LOVE this! Thank you barkowitz for stepping in! I stand corrected! My only gripe with your response is this quote: "But this is not a numbers game, the true picture is this: we admit those who are qualified and we aid those who need it. End of story." Your acceptance rate is ???? I'm guessing around 10% - the other 90% just didn't cut it?
TaraMom - your husband is not alone in his opinion.</p>
<p>Well, as to that, take a long look at Matt McGann's or Ben Jones' blogs on the Admissions process (you know, I am only the Director of Financial Aid -- smiles).</p>
<p>But I will say that from my understanding we are looking for a match between the candidate and MIT which is hard to quantify, but is something that the Admissions officers are able to note. I know that is a nebulous answer, but it is the best one I have for you. </p>
<p>So, I do stand corrected as well... There are many qualified students who do not get in (our acceptance rate was 15% or so this year), but financial aid wasn't what kept them out.</p>
<p>Barkowitz,
I want to reiterate my thanks for stepping in and offering an "insiders view". I certainly realize that ther admissions process is extremely challenging at schools such as yours - It's a job I could not do. Again, my uneducated guess is that 60-70% of the applicants are very qualifed to attend and have worked hard to get accepted. Those decisions to deny have to be difficult. One final point and I promise it's not a jab! I didn't realize that it was considered a form of financial aid for a student to have an on campus job. Thanks for the clarification - Yipee - we got aid too!</p>
<p>Taramom, there are alot of people who feel as your husband does. And there well may be schools that do look at the big EFC. However, the way it works for those schools where Financial Aid and Admissions are separate, they don't even look at the EFC until after the decisions are pretty much made. The school where I worked is not need blind, but Admissions wanted the top kids regardless of need, and it was only the tail end that were considered with need taken into account.</p>