<p>If you don’t have a JOB, an internship is a START. Get your foot in the door. One step at a time.</p>
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<p>Sounds pretty accurate. The 2002-2007 era was the so-called ‘jobless recovery’ where many of the folks who were laid off in tech prior to 2002, got their jobs back. But there was almost no demand for new grads. After 2007, the economy basically crashed. For much of the past decade, even guys at the tops of their classes aren’t even granted the courtesy of interviews at firms who hire many foreign guest workers.</p>
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<p>Look, I gave you the facts of life relating to labour participation rates. Male-dominated fields should be expected to have higher labour participation rates, for reasons that are pretty undeniable (ie: men don’t have the burden of child-bearing, and men aren’t involved in childcare). This isn’t sexist – this is simply a fact of life. </p>
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<p>The numbers would seem to show that large numbers of STEM grads in the past decade are unemployed. Google et al don’t get 1000 applications per position they hire for because there’s a shortage of grads, that’s for sure.</p>
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<p>As I told you, I don’t need an internship. I am fully trained and qualified. I think you’re proving my point – there is very little demand for domestic STEM labour if one has to essentially work for free on some internship to get a ‘job’. The reason for this is clearly the mass importation of H-1B’s who have taken most of the entry-level jobs. </p>
<p>Besides, internships are typically for undergrads, while they’re in school. You’re not even eligible in most cases once you’ve graduated.</p>
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Wow. No wonder you are having such difficulty. You appear to be living in the stone age.</p>
<p>My, with such a positive attitute, appreciation for those trying to help you, and such refreshing, contemporary thinking, its a surprise you haven’t been snapped up by multiple employers :rolleyes:</p>
<p>Free? Neither of my s’s internships were unpaid. You really need to be way more open-minded if you are truly serious about finding employment.</p>
<p>You might consider yourself trained and qualified. But if you havent been in the workforce in 10 years you will be considered stale and out of date by potential employers.</p>
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<p>I beg your pardon? ■■■■■ much?</p>
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<p>I think you’re missing my point – if employment existed in sufficient quantities to cover the STEM workforce that graduates, than these internships would be completely unnecessary and inconsequential. Especially for people who have graduated and thus are fully qualified to participate in the field.</p>
<p>Your “point” is irrelevant. You can argue and complain 'til you are blue in the face. Knock ourself out. But the reality is that this is the current state of the workforce. You have two choices-- take it or leave it. It is what it is. All your complaining is not going to change it. So you either get your foot in the door and take something, ANYTHING so you have a current job in the field on your resume, or you can continue to sound like a provincial thinking sourpuss.</p>
<p>Oh, and apologies if I was unclear earlier. Each of my s’s had 2 internships during college. All 4 of their internships were paid. And some were surpisingly high paying.</p>
<p>jym, it may very well be the current state of the workforce, but I would implore you to please stop the lies about STEM graduates being in demand, particularly engineers. Fields that are in demand don’t present arbitrary (and very unnecessary) barriers for people who are fully trained/qualified in those fields to enter the workforce. H-1B is obviously a huge reason why many grads have had a very difficult time entering the workforce, as grads are simply being crowded out with low cost foreigners.</p>
<p>And besides, not everyone can/wants to return to their previous internship employer. I did an internship, and the company went out of business in the tech bust. The general rule is that most employers don’t even care about internships unless they were with their specific company. An internship at, say, GE, is not going to help you if you’re applying to Microsoft.</p>
<p>I am no fan of the H1-B folks, but the field simply isn’t as dismal as you perceive. I am sorry you have had such a tough time of it, but your negativity oozes through the monitor. Surely it becomes equally apparent to potential employers as well. </p>
<p>And I disagree. An internship with GE sure looks a heckuva lot better than no experience in the engineering field. Internships offer opportunities other than simply in the specific field. It offers corporate/organizational experience and all that goes along with it. Myopic views of the world will not help. Really. Be more positive and open minded.</p>
<p>And please stop conflating “STEM” grads with engineering grads. The opportunities for engineers are much better than for biology grads.</p>
<p>In between all your grousing, did you even bother to click on the link I provided from the other thread? There seem to be a LOT of job openings (not internships- JOBS)<a href=“https://navsea.usajobs.gov/JobSearch/Search/GetResults?Keyword=engineer&Location=&search.x=27&search.y=13[/url]”>https://navsea.usajobs.gov/JobSearch/Search/GetResults?Keyword=engineer&Location=&search.x=27&search.y=13</a> Quityurbtchn and look into them.</p>
<p>Engineering is much better off than biology, and could probably survive without major restructuring. But that’s not really saying much, because biology employment is about at Great Depression levels. Engineering employment is definitely at a major trough. It’s really only good for those with 2-5 years of experience who are under 40. It’s not fair to say that engineering is doing well right now.
Mark’s case may be an extreme one, but it’s certainly closer to the truth than the relatively rosy picture you’re trying to paint.</p>
<p>I am not trying to paint any kind of picture. I am simply sharing my family’s experience and those of many of my s’s classmates, my s’s previous employer and my H’s current employer. I agree with you, though. Mark/Wolfgang is an extreme case. </p>
<p>When my s worked for a big corporation, he was involved in helping to recruit to fill an entry EE position. They were having a tough time filling it, and the candidates they were interviewing were getting multiple job offers (this was a year ago).</p>
<p>Yes, this is a tough hiring climate/economy. Never said otherwise. Things may not be as “rosy” as you think I am trying to portray, but they are not as bleak as you suggest. Sure its hard to find those entry level positions. Thats why you take the summer internships-- to open doors for entry level job offers after the internships. That said, neither of my s’s took job offers from their internships. And each of them had multiple job offers. By fall of their senior year. And my kids’ experience is not all that special. And these were in the past few years.</p>
<p>BTW, my personal rant would be about all the outsourcing overseas and to untrained cheap labor.</p>
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<p>Its not extreme though – I know guys who have EE PhD’s who are in the same boat, even after 7 years of post-grad work on their M.Sc.'s and PhDs. Sent out thousands of applications, only to receive very minimal employer interest. </p>
<p>Most of us who have gone through STEM programs know they’re harder than your typical Arts or Business degree. For many of us, it was essentially a labour of love. When I went into EE/CS, I never believed that I’d live in a Mansion, or drive a Maseriti. I thought I was signing up for a relatively decent middle class career. Yet to see 2/3rds of STEM graduates unemployed or underemployed strikes me as crazy. Even crazier is importing hoardes of cheap guest workers on the H-1B, while domestic talent isn’t even given consideration. </p>
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<p>Sorry, I’m not interested in working for the Armed Forces. And your link only brought up a handfull of jobs that were anything but at the very senior level. </p>
<p>In fact, most of the jobs listed have this restriction on applicants: "Current permanent Department of the Navy civilian employees " or similar. I count only a half dozen positions that may actually accept applications from outsiders.</p>
<p>If you were really desparate for a job you would not be quite so picky. Good luck to you.</p>
<p>This might be of interest:
<a href=“http://www.nber.org/chapters/c2666.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nber.org/chapters/c2666.pdf</a></p>
<p>1957 publication?? Did someone open a time capsule?</p>
<p>Browsing through the last few pages of this thread, there wasn’t anything glaring that I disagreed with. Yes of course it would be better for our economy if Americans bought the products we developed.</p>
<p>However, I still don’t understand how we would prevent the potential outsourcing. Wouldn’t that be the next step for companies if H1-B is cut back significantly?</p>