<p>Hey forum, first post be nice please :D </p>
<p>Would I be considered an international student?
I'm Asian but hold a Canadian citizenship and all..
I went to school in America since 5th grade.</p>
<p>And asking in general, do international students compete in their own national (where they hold citizenship) or racial pool?
If so, would me being Chinese make me disadvantaged because I would be competing with the millions of Asians overseas? </p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>Your application will be evaluated side-by-side with your American classmates. However, if you are applying for financial aid and you are not a US citizen or eligible non-citizen (e.g. permanent resident), you will be competing with foreign students for limited resources.</p>
<p>If you haven’t already, find out if you are eligible for in-state tuition rates in your home state. States have different policies for non-citizens.</p>
<p>Thanks for the fast reply 
Lol I won’t be needing financial aid at all (single child, all the money’s mine :P)
It seems like a common issue in the international pool…</p>
<p>Good for you. As long as you don’t need aid, you are not disadvantaged.</p>
<p>I don’t know where you’re getting this, but international students are generally disadvantaged. If you come from an overrepresented country such as Canada, China, India or South Korea, you will be disadvantaged. (You will be advantaged if you are from Ghana, Somalia, other underpresented countries). The reason for this is because universities want to claim ’ a most diverse group of students’ from 104 countries (or something along those lines).</p>
<p>You are competing against a very competitive pool where many students have international recognization. MIT limits the number of international students to 150 (4.7% acceptance rate). Furthermore, if you look at the statistics for any top-tier school, the acceptance rate for internationals are generally much lower. Somewhere on Princeton’s site is a sub 5% acceptance rate for international students. Note, that both MIT and Princeton are need-blind international so they are generally harder for international to gain admissions. I believe Yale hovers around 3%. </p>
<p>However, public schools (lacking funds) generally have higher acceptance rates for international students.</p>
<p>Most schools, however, don’t publish this data and it is quite difficult to find.</p>
<p>EDIT:My bad, its actually a 3.7% acceptance rate for MIT for Internationals.</p>
<p>^BTW, international students at MIT undergraduate is 10% 436/4384</p>
<p>OP, you are not a US citizen/permanent resident right? Then you are not considered in the US pool, regardless if you went to a US school. There is a different pool for internationals and the admitted international students represent around ~10% of the class in most US schools. You do not compete with the Asian US students but with the citizens of your country. The race/ethnic statistics published are only for the US/permanent resident student group and reported to the federal government. As an international you compete within your country/continent with every other student. An unhooked international has an even lower chance to get in since they compete with any countryman who goes primarily in private schools/alumni/dignitaries/businessmen. Look at the students for example from a poor country in Africa and try if you can find a student who did not go to a boarding school/private school in that country. The average stats/ECs that you see here in CC are for the US students. Internationals have a higher hurdle. There is a mistaken assumption by many that if you attend a US high school you get a leg up since you will be evaluated with the US pool. The answer is NO. Many schools who receive thousands of applications from international students have started explaining it at their websites:</p>
<p>MIT
“Am I lnternational?
MIT considers any student who does not hold US citizenship or permanent residency to be an international applicant, regardless of where you live or attend school.”</p>
<p>USC
“At USC, an international student is an individual of foreign nationality who will be entering, or has already entered, the United States with a student visa. Students already residing in the United States and holding other non-immigrant visas (E2, H2, or L2, for example) are also considered to be international students.”</p>
<p>For the same reason, any student that has US citizenship, regardless of where they live, are placed in the US pool.
Again from MIT:
" If you are an American citizen or permanent resident, then you are considered a domestic applicant;"</p>
<p>If you have dual Chinese/Canadian citizenship then I would stress your Canadian citizenship, but either country’s applicant pool is huge.</p>
<p>^ I know MIT has 10% international students. It is exactly why they limit it to 10% international that the acceptance rate is something ridicuolusly low for internationals.</p>
<p>You will probably be put in the Canadian pool (why is extremely large/competitive). </p>
<p>You will, however, be evaluated in the context of your school. So you do have a very minor, probably insignificant, leg up against the ‘true’ international students.</p>
<p>Ana1, I disagree for three reasons: The first is that applicants are typically divided into separate piles depending on the location of their high school. An American-educated student would land in one of the American piles and be evaluated side-by-side with their American classmates, not one of the international ones. </p>
<p>The second reason is that your argument does not match my personal experience. Within my group of Ivy-educated friends, there seems to be a significant gap between American-educated and foreign-educated international students. For example, almost all of the foreign-educated internationals I know at MIT participated in international math or science olympiads. The domestically-educated international students did not boast achievements at that level. (I suspect that’s because American-educated students can be evaluated more holistically than foreign educated students: many foreign school systems are so rigid that it’s difficult to distinguish between “very good” and “exceptional” student; markers like participation in international olympiads might be the best way to pick the top candidates. This is an obstacle that American-educated international students do not face, and might explain why they get accepted with “less impressive” accomplishments.) </p>
<p>The third reason is that there’s a difference between the domestic/international classification for administrative purposes and how it’s actually being used to make decisions. It’s convenient to define an “international student” as “someone who’s not a US citizen or permanent resident” because these students share many of the same concerns (they need to think about visas, they are not eligible to file FAFSA, etc) but that does not automatically imply that everyone considered “international” for administrative purposes lands in the same pool for admission decision purposes.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>If you are not a U.S. citizen or permanent resident (i.e. green card holder), you are considered an international student for admission and financial aid purposes, even if you have studied in the US since 5th grade.</p>
<p>b@r!um, you can disagree as much as you want but you are wrong on your assumptions.
The information comes directly from the schools, not my personal opinion, that’s why I pasted the policy exactly as described by the schools. They have established this policy because in recent years there have been many internationals who send the kids to high school in the USA, not just the boarding school but any public school trying to get a leg up. If you are not a US citizen, or an eligible US resident, even if you are already in the USA studying on a non-immigrant visa, then you get in the pile for internationals. This is not an administrative classification, but the admissions office classification.</p>
<p>I am reposting the MIT quote that is from the Admissions webpage, not from the general MIT site:</p>
<p>"How To Apply To MIT</p>
<p>If you are an international student, you may not be familiar with the application process for American colleges, including MIT. This is a quick overview to help you understand how applying to an American school like MIT works. Some of the information in here is also true for American colleges other than MIT, but you should make sure to check with other schools before applying, since we can’t speak for them! </p>
<p>Am I lnternational?
MIT considers any student who does not hold US citizenship or permanent residency to be an international applicant, regardless of where you live or attend school. US Permanent Residents are those students who have an official copy of their Green Card in hand. If you are in the process of obtaining a Green Card, then you are considered by MIT to be an international student, regardless of where your high school is located. If you are an American citizen or permanent resident, then you are considered a domestic applicant; however, if you have lived for long periods of time outside the United States, some of this information may still be helpful to orient you in the process."</p>
<p>As for the people that you work with in silicon valley, have you thought that people who attended high school in the USA are more familiar with how the system works so even an individual with lower achievements will know how to better take advantage of opportunities? Plus, an international with high awards may be an average social status person who got in for their high achievement and wants to stay in the USA. A highly ranking socially international returns to their country the majority of the time because they have a guaranteed high position back home. As for the colleges evaluating the foreign high school, they are very familiar with each country’s educational system and there are feeder schools in each country. Colleges have their personal data from years of admitted students from each country.They do not even need to use the big “UN Guidebook” to the world’s educational systems (I can not remember the exact title of the book).</p>
<p>One thing that many tend to forget is the fact that internationals who attend reputable US high schools would more often than not be well received and rated higher than those HS graduates from other countries. They certainly are the most competitive category of internationals simply because their schools are better known. They are also trained much beforehand to write essays and take SAT, specif. SAT I, but not for SAT Subjects. Another major difference is ECs where internationals generally are not required or encouraged to do as much or of the same kinds as those of US students. That’s why admitted internationals to the top universities are normally international olympiad participants or top in their respective countries or national scholars despite having done nothing much about any meaningful ECs! Most families of internationals thus now are inclined to send their children to attend well known US schools early if they want their kids to be successful in getting into the Ivies or top unis.</p>
<p>sompornburin, I agree with that but I would argue that this is primarily for large countries (primarily Asian) that have new middle class that exceeds the # of slots available in the top high schools and top universities in these countries. If one is from a small country, the college will accept 1-2 for their phantom quota so there would be enough spaces for all US colleges to get an elite (not necessarily academically) student from that country. If the full pay student is for example Chinese/Vietnamese where the # of applicants is significantly higher and going to school in the US is a status up symbol, then they do get a leg up by attending a US high school than the other average unhooked student from their country. But for example a socially up Chinese student who has attended a domestically top high school will be ranked higher than a Chinese student who has international awards but attended a Chinese HS, or a Chinese student who attended a US HS. Colleges have a relationship with specific schools in each country and they basically guarantee admissions for at least one student from that school. In recent years with the internet and books, the number of average middle class internationals students who apply to US colleges have increased dramatically, but the reality is that the slots in each school are still at 10% for internationals and the chances of getting accepted for that average unhooked student has decreased.</p>
<p>Ana1, I am an international student. My school is a feeder to top-tier schools, but not to ivy-leagues. So I am assuming ivy-leagues would factor the SAT more for me, since it is not easy to measure extracurriculars and transcripts. However, I am giving my A-Levels, which are standardized examinations of the CIE.</p>
<p>If you go to a feeder HS for top tier, then your school is at the list that colleges have for the academic rigor of that school. They do know how to evaluate your school as well. But your SAT target has to be at the top of the average and up for the school that you want to get in. They are also going to evaluate your transcript for HS and leadership skills. They have hundreds of Pakistani applicants every year.</p>
<p>Lets say a certain institution has never taken a student from my school, how would they evaluate that application?</p>
<p>If you are international you are being evaluated with all your country people. Schools have accepted students from your country, whatever she is, before. They know how to evaluate transcripts, ECS, all info, whether a student from your specific school has been accepted before or not. They also have lists that are compiled by consultants about the academic rigor of different schools in each country. The school is not going to evaluate only the SATs. Transcripts are extremely important as it shows trends and ability to cope under intense academic pressure. There are thousands of students with perfects SATs being rejected by top universities every year, while students with lower scores get accepted. If you are not a genious, go to a feeder school, belong in a family of a top politician/elite, then your chances decline dramatically if you are an international. A US student who grew up homeless, in a rural, tiny town, in a ghetto, or any other unfortunate sad situation, has a good chance to be admitted, even with scores below average for that college because that student adds to the diversity of the class. An international under similar circumstances will not. You are Pakistani, right? My Pakistani classmates when I was in college had the following parent connections: a Jatoi and a Jinnah grandchild/prominent lawyer dad in Lachore/MD in Karatchi/textile factory/World Bank employee/PIA senior employee. All of them had graduated from private HS and some were not exactly top students compared to the rest of the student body, but I guess full pay and needed addition for international diversity.</p>
<p>Yeah I am Pakistani. Thanks for the help, really helped a lot. :)</p>
<p>I am from Brazil, where not many students are willing to study in the U.S. I did some research and found out that actually Brazilian students are exclusive to ivy-leagues (other colleges either do not have any brazilian students or have less than 5 of them per year).
Considering this fact, I ask: do I as a Brazilian have more chances of being accepted for a very selective university than a Pakistani or Chinese, for example, who represent a huge amount of international students in the U.S.?
I plan to apply to Georgetown, Johns Hopkins, Tufts, George Washington University, University of Virginia and American University. I will not apply to the ivies.
Thank you!</p>
<p>You are evaluated against internationals from your country/continent, not the world. If you apply to a LAC that does not have Brazilians, you have a higher possibility to get accepted because that school does not have a feeder HS in Brazil. Just because a school does not have a high amount of students from a country, it does not mean they want to increase their phantom quota for that country. Look at the US News rankings for LAcs, not national universities.</p>
<p>
I am curious about this because I was just reading an article about the Brazilian government funding study abroad opportunities on a large scale. Do you know if Brazilian students like to go abroad for college too or is it mainly for grad school? </p>
<p>For example, I noticed that 58 of the 62 Brazilian students at Harvard are graduate students - only 4 are undergrads. Other top universities don’t seem to have many Brazilian undergraduates either. There are 4 at Princeton, 12 at Yale, 9 at Cornell, 11 at MIT. Also 7 at Tufts.</p>
<p>Why do you believe that the more than 4,000 Brazilian undergraduate students in the US are concentrated at the Ivies?</p>