I sent you a private message. Look for the circle with the D in the upper right hand portion of the screen and click on it, and you’ll see the option to read the private message.
Top LACs have top professors and student bodies. The main difference between a LAC and university is the LAC teaches only undergrads, the classes are typically much smaller, and professors rather than TAs teach the classes. So, if you have the money and would send your D to a top university and then law school, I reason why you wouldn’t send her to a top LAC.
We have twins who applied to college this year. One knew they wanted a bigger school and one knew they wanted a LAC. The one headed to a LAC might want to go to law school. I say might because kids change their minds all the time. The LAC child had several merit options, which if they were a fit, she would have taken. But, she ended up at a full pay one. She, too, liked Vassar, but ultimately chose a different one. But, we would have paid full price for Vassar (which really seems fabulous).
Top law schools want to see top grades (3.8+and top LSAT scores), except maybe for Harvard/Yale, they aren’t as concerned with the undergrad name. Nonetheless, top grades/scores + top LAC may give your D a boost just as a top university might.
1 Like
This is a very tough question. We struggled with this exact question around about four or five years ago.
Our youngest was also set on attending a smaller school, such as a liberal arts college. She was the #1 student in her high school (it was not close), but had very little in the way of ECs. We visited a few local LACs (such as Bowdoin) and I ran the NPCs on several of them. Being full cost at Bowdoin or Williams or Wellesley is quite intimidating. If law school is in your future, it makes sense to save money for law school.
I am also an immigrant but went to university in the US. My wife and I both attended highly ranked universities in the US for graduate school. One thing that we both noticed is that the other students there came from a very wide range of universities. Many graduate students at a top university will have a bachelor’s degree from their in-state public universities.
There is an opportunity cost of the four years of hard work that a student puts into their bachelor’s degree, and there is also an opportunity cost of what you do with your money.
There are perhaps three things that I would put at the top of the priority list. One is that whatever you spend on one child needs to be available to other children. You do not want to be full pay at Williams for one child and then tell any subsequent children that you cannot afford to pay for university. Another is that you do not want to spend money that you feel that you need for retirement. You do not want to mess up your future over the difference between Williams versus a less expensive school. Also, there are real advantages for your daughter to graduate from law school or other graduate program with little or no debt. This means that saving some money for law school makes a lot of sense.
My understanding is that admissions to law school depends a lot on GPA and LSAT score, and much, much less on which school you get your bachelor’s from.
We ended up going with affordable schools for undergrad (which means not Bowdoin or Williams). We decided spending $75k or more per year for Bowdoin or Williams was not worth it. So far this has worked out very well for us. I think that this is a personal choice, and a hard one.
8 Likes
The question that has to be asked on the other side of the coin is whether law school is worth it. There are 1.3 million layers in the US today. How many does one country need.
Unlike medical school, law school is no guarantee to a good job. There are lots of law school graduates who are not working as lawyers and many of those who are working as layers are not working in jobs whose salaries justify the expense.
The other problem is that a lot of lawyers hate the work once they are employed, and as a result many of them leave the field even after they get a decent job.
Frankly I would spend the money on a top notch undergraduate college education and go to a state law school rather than the other way around.
2 Likes
A low ranking law school may be a waste of money, since law hiring is heavily driven by law school rank. However, a state flagship law school that is highly ranked within the state may be a reasonable choice for practicing law within the state.
Discover law schools | Law School Transparency can give some idea of each law school’s graduates’ outcomes.
3 Likes
The high-paying Big Law jobs definitely care about prestige but if someone’s goal is to enter one of those public service jobs with income-based repayment, a local law school may be perfectly fine.
1 Like
That’s an important point. The OP’s D really should research why she thinks she wants certain goals.
1 Like
I’m not sure why this discussion has become about law school, but I think it’s fair to take the OP at their word and answer the question assuming law school is the plan.
Depending on the kid and other options, I think LAC’s provide a great foundation for lawyers. Admission data suggests they do well in placement.
Being able to pay and getting value from the payment is a completely personal situation. There is no way to know the options unless you get to regular admissions and can compare financial aid packages. If you want to play the ED game, you’re going to have to risk no financial support.
If money isn’t an issue (for the next 8 years…what if you lose your job)…then I’d support the choice of an LAC 100%.
1 Like
This is just not a factually correct statement.
4 Likes
Can you elaborate?
Except for maybe some into foreign language and English comp classes, a TA is rarely the primary instructor. Also, class size tends to be more about school wealth than if they happen to also have graduate and professional schools under a University designation. Lastly, class sizes at LAC’s are naturally limited because with less than 500 students per year, is is amost impossible to have 100’s of students interested in a class in a single term.
1 Like
Thanks. Fair points. We should also note that while TAs will not be the primary instructor they might often be the primary contact, discussion leader, and person to answer questions, all of which are a big part of instruction.
1 Like
But TA’s are not limited to Universities. LAC’s may also utilize upperclassman as TAs. The job duties outlined below for Williams College almost exactly describes what my responsibilities were when I was a TA at an R1 university.
2 Likes
LAC’s these days may also hire adjuncts like research U’s. Biggest difference, IMO, is the undergraduate focus of pretty much all LACs (as well as many non doctorate-granting institutions like Rose-Hulman) while at RU’s, it depends on the uni and department (some care more/less about undergraduate instruction vs. research).
1 Like
What’s your point? Are you trying to say that there isn’t a difference between LACs and large research uni’s with regard to student contact with professors?
It seems to me that there are generally two questions here that have been, to some degree, combined into one. The first relates to the value of LACs versus “Brand-name impressive” universities, and the second relates to the saving of money for law school.
In my opinion, those questions should be decoupled. On the first question, I agree with what many others on this thread have stated or suggested: top LACs have tremendous brand value and many are viewed as being as good as or better than some of the “brand-name impressive” schools identified above. Top LACs certainly put students who perform well in a good position to gain admittance to top graduate programs. Top high school students can and do turn down offers from top-ranked national universities, including Ivies, in favor of some LACs. At least for me, the LAC v national university distinction (in isolation) would not affect how much I would pay for undergrad.
As a data point, I took a quick look at the bios for the managing partners at the two highest revenue law firms in the US, both of which have average profits per partner in the solid seven figures. For one managing partner, the law school was Harvard and the undergrad Lehigh. For the the other, the law degree was Northwestern and the undergrad was Bucknell, an LAC. I think this is consistent with the general impressions many on this thread have conveyed.
The second question, i.e., the finance question, is a harder one in my opinion, and I can see good reasons for handling it in different ways. Personally, I think it makes sense to talk the issue out with your child a bit. The good thing about really smart kids is that I think most generally recognize when parents have their best interests at heart (e.g., taking care of their long-term educational goals). The downside of having really smart kids is, however, that they can sometimes be very strong-willed and have very strong opinions. About some things they may be right, about others, probably not so much–even very smart kids lack life experience that us older folks have. Good luck!
5 Likes
I will say that we were pleasantly shocked at how much personal contact my D has had with professors at her flagship. Weekly dinner, movie nights, and hikes freshman year with her floor’s professor. She knew his kids and was also lucky enough to have him for a class. She’s still in touch with her study abroad professors and tutored their kids. On a first name basis with the assoc honors engineering dean, got hand written notes from profs even in large lectures, is a grader for a course and has the profs cell phone number, etc…
Two of her courses first semester freshman year had less than 25 students. Big lectures all have recitations of under 25. Profs were readily available, and not just in office hours. The PhD students who TA’d have been fabulous but work together with the profs. Doubles the amount of opportunities for help and review sessions.
From what I hear from other families with kids at large public’s, my D’s experience isn’t unusual, especially for honors college.
4 Likes
@debono To answer your first question, are liberal arts colleges worth it as compared to T-20 research universities? Similarly ranked LACs will have similar name brand, prestige, and academic quality. Nobody is going to compare Williams or Vassar negatively to Harvard or Georgetown.
The second question, is do you really want to pay 80K per year for any school? (yes, for this year, top schools are already approaching 80K annually just for tuition, fees, R&B, excluding books, travel and other miscellaneous expenses).
If she has her heart set on a liberal arts college, there are many good options that offer substantial merit scholarships (in the range of 20K-40K per year) if she and you are willing to move down the rankings a bit. Some women’s colleges can be especially good value if she is interested - Mount Holyoke, Smith, and Bryn Mawr are prestigious and offer merit scholarships. Among co-ed LACs, there are a number of options ranked roughly in the 20-60 range - a few that come to mind are Lehigh, Lafayette, Davidson, Oberlin, Macalester, and Dickinson. Check out the Colleges that Change Lives list of LACs.
Do make sure that your daughter has a good mix of safeties and matches along with the reaches. Due to test optional policies this year, admissions were especially unpredictable and are likely to continue to be so. No matter how accomplished your daughter is, do not assume that she’s going to get into all or most of her reach schools. Look at the parents of class of 2021 thread if you want real life examples. I know several 4.0 UW, 99% test scores, national award, etc. kids who were WL or rejected at many or all of the selective colleges and universities they tried for.
Finally, regarding the perennial debate over access to professors - any motivated student can develop close relationships with faculty. It’s more of an expectation at LACs that this will happen and it might require a little more effort at a large public university. But it can be done anywhere. Honors colleges at state universities are also a fantastic middle ground if you are price sensitive. Most public flagships will have large, well-regarded History and Political Science departments. U Mass Amherst, U MD College Park, and Rutgers spring to mind. There are many others.
5 Likes
‘Ray Bucknell !
1 Like
Thanks for your reply. Much appreciated.