Are many middle/high school students being pushed too far ahead in math?

<p>I remember when my kids were in elementary school hearing that the Japanese kids were doing algebra in elementary school. Therefore, when it was recommended that my kids take algebra in 6th grade it didn’t seem strange.</p>

<p>One completed calcBC in 11th and took two higher level math classes in 12th grade that were college level that were paid for by the public school district.</p>

<p>One took one class above calcBC in 12th grade that was also offered at the public school.</p>

<p>Statistics was incorporated in the curriculum.</p>

<p>Our school offers AB and BC but as an either/or. I think about 2/3 take AB and 1/3 take BC. All of the kids taking Calc as juniors take BC. One of the pre-calc teachers reguarly finishes the pre-calc curriculum by Thanksgiving and then has the kids start on calculus. They aren’t ready for the AP in early May, but they are taking practice AP tests by the last month of school. Our school calendar goes on for almost two months after the AP putting our students at a tremendous disadvantage.</p>

<p>We are seeing a lot of this. It is primarily pushed by the parents. It is fime for about 5% of the kids, many of the others get pushed ahead with various levels of grade inflation, but the gaps start to show up in higher math and science - either in high school or college.</p>

<p>A lot of this is the “marketplace.” Parents want their kids to be far ahead in math. It is fine for some kids who can get the deeper meaning of math at that pace. Some teachers are better than others at teaching it at that pace. Others just teach tot he tests because the parents want these kids to do well on standardized tests. They are getting what the want, for the most part, but frequently it is not what is best for the student in the long run. They get banged up in college math and science when the gaps start causing problems.</p>

<p>Watch this for some comic relief …</p>

<p>[I&lt;/a&gt; Want to Be a Math Teacher - YouTube](<a href=“- YouTube”>- YouTube)</p>

<p>Our curriculum is supposed to be standardized so that the algebra course taken in middle school is identical to that which would be taken in high school. The midterms and finals are definitely standardized. Back when there were fewer kids in the advanced track in our district, it was a high school teacher who came to teach them. So what building the class is held in shouldn’t matter one whit, as long as the middle school teacher has the required background and certification to teach that level. In my opinion, if there are gaps that appear later, the gaps are because the instruction was poor–not because the instruction happened two years earlier for one kid than another. There doesn’t seem to be much of anything that is taught in grade level 7th or 8th grade math that magically prepares the child for algebra, so the student who takes algebra is 7th is not at a disadvantage so long as s/he learned what he was supposed to in 6th grade. This might not be true in other districts. Here there’s this philosophy of “algebra readiness” that governs the system. I am not convinced that’s an actual cognitive reality, in part because millions of home-schooled and foreign-educated young people learn and master algebra well before age 15. Only American kids seem to need to cross a certain intellectual milestone first before they’re “ready.”</p>

<p>What might make a difference for the student is overall maturity. Since algebra and geometry are high school classes, the grades go on the high school transcript. The grades used to even be included in the high school GPA, but that practice was stopped. So if the kid is not responsible enough to keep up with the homework, seek help when he needs it, or do a few extra problems now and then to solidy the tougher concepts, then advancement might not be the best.</p>

<p>"Are many middle/high school students being pushed too far ahead in math? </p>

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<p>they are way behind most other countries, including some African countires. Actually it is very sad situation with math/physical sciences in American middle/high school. Very very sad.</p>

<p>Not only is content a factor, and pushing/catching up with overseas, the quality of Math TEACHING is not what it should be. Nor is teaching of science, for that matter.</p>

<p>I have seem many perfectly able students foiled in a math or science class by an inept teacher. Very sad. Then these students are not prepared for the next level, so it continues…</p>

<p>My 12 years old granddaughter and her 10 years old bro complained all the time how bored they are with school math (in some of better schools in NYC). I am afraid that they will stop to care soon. That is the sad part I am talking about. It is not just teaching (which is a huge part), the program is beyond inadequate. Huge eye openner for kids in science / engineering at college, many have to find help asap, others give up and switch to different majors, bit part of redundant college cost that should have not been there. Oh, forget science, many cannot keep up with Econ. classes because of inadequate math in HS. Just a shame!</p>

<p>I think American education, especially with regards to math, suffers at times from breadth and ‘survey’ of topics (that is possible to pass with memorization and algorithms) at the expense of theoretical depth and real understanding. There has been much written on this subject by math professors who do in fact see problems with kids collecting the ‘levels’ at a superficial level in earlier years, when in fact they would be far better served spending more time and going deeper on less. The whole AP machine, and the need to ‘take the most rigorous’ for college apps is much to blame here and the pressure starts early for some. </p>

<p>Here is one of many articles on the subject in the Chronicle of Higher Education:</p>

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<p>Or from this more recent article in the Chronicle of Higher Ed from last year (January 17, 2010 The Rocky Transition From High-School Calculus, David M. Bressoud</p>

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<p>IMO, most kids who drop out of calculus do so because of the time-consuming nature of the work.</p>

<p>Calc is the least time consuming subject at HS. Talking about hours upon hours D. has spent on History discussions with her D. and many more re-writing her English papers, I almost never seen her doing calc. When I asked, she said it is very easy and usually she does it at school in between other things, just like her Spanish, another easy class. If one understands math, it is the least time consuming, if one does not, he better seek help. Spending too much time on it is not a solution, especially at the level that is presented in HS.</p>

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<p>Even so, one is often better off taking the full college-level course…especially if one is heading off to an elite college and/or is planning to use stats in grad school/career. </p>

<p>Incidentally, many grad schools mandate students take their grad course even if it was taken in undergrad or earlier because they feel the coverage is inadequate for their program’s application of stats to their field.</p>

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<p>Especially if one is on the college-prep track. In the ROC(Taiwan), our equivalent of high school science and math up to and including calculus is considered middle-school material for those hoping to attend academic high schools for the college bound. Mom is still sore about the fact she was considered a slow student for taking calc as a high school sophomore at a remedial high school over there.</p>

<p>MiamiDAP</p>

<p>My son would agree with you. His senior year schedule includes AP Chemistry, AP Physics(E&M), Linear Algebra, AP Econ and English12. He says that English is by far the most time consuming! He is a “math kid” though so I’m pretty sure this is not the norm.</p>

<p>It’s a wonder MIT, Stanford or Harvard are able to find qualified candidates in the US with the educational system describes on this thread.</p>

<p>This is an interesting topic. Like ucbalumnus, I also had the same math lineup:
9th grade Algegra, 10th grade Geometry, etc.</p>

<p>Frankly I think we are really pushing our kids too much, in so many ways. Why is it so important for our kids to have Calculus, AP Physics, AP History, etc in high school? It seems that we have really begun to push kids for the sake of pushing them so they can get into top colleges, rather than to teach them a love of learning.</p>

<p>I would rather see less focus on ‘advanced’ and more focus on teaching subjects in context. If they are going to have calculus,then it should be taught as how to use calculus in the real world. Science should be taught the same way, etc. </p>

<p>OK, I’ll get off my soapbox now. . .</p>

<p>On one hand, we like to complain about how America is so far behind in math and science education, but on the other hand we’re pushing our kids too hard. On one hand AP Calculus has too much breadth and not enough depth, but on the other hand we need to include more applications rather than maybe focusing on the math itself. I wonder if anyone could explain the difference between 7th and 8th grade math, or what topics in the AP Calculus are unnecessary. Of course, that would require being more specific than just screaming “a mile wide and an inch deep!”</p>

<p>^ I think you are missing the point. There isn’t a contradiction here. </p>

<p>Pushing ‘too hard’ on the wrong things isn’t useful to anyone. Being pushed hard on the right things would raise abilities. This is a case where more isn’t better…pushing kids to cover tons of material and many courses without developing a deeper understanding of the material isn’t raising abilities, it’s just looking better on paper. This is why American kids are unique in the world for taking all this supposed college level material in highschool…yet even their top students aren’t doing as well as students in other parts of the world that don’t even get to take advanced math until college. </p>

<p>Of course actually reading the articles and the suggested improvements to AP calc would require being more thoughtful than just defending the status quo by pointing to faux contradictions.</p>

<p>^^^</p>

<p>The article you posted was one article and talked about 30% of the kids.</p>

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<p>Ohiomom - I don’t know if you already have kids in college and have been through the process one or more times. You may know lots more about this than I do. I can well believe my limited experience isn’t really representative. </p>

<p>Everyone, please tell me if I am totally off the mark - but in my admittedly very limited experience, I am not aware of any of the above schools admitting someone as a proposed math major who didn’t already have math beyond the normal high school AP calculus sequence. </p>

<p>I am delighted if I am wrong about this and you know something different. My only reason for responding is if this information may be helpful to some parents reading the board. Because one doesn’t have to apply as a math major.</p>

<p>Alh asked me to post on this topic, so here are my thoughts:</p>

<p>I could probably write all day on this topic. I went to a good public school (before I transferred to a magnet high school,) and the top track there was to take precalc as a sophomore and complete calculus by the end of the junior year. It wasn’t a track you could really test into. In elementary school, I started out 5 years ahead in math (which was the ceiling of the test), and after several years of supposedly “losing” my placement tests and making me do different versions of the same book (different publishing companies), I ended up being 2 years ahead. Unless you have a parent who is in STEM (or at least educated,) your growth will be stunted in this country. My experience was similar to many of the people at my magnet high school, and later, MIT. My impression is this unwillingness to let people progress at their own natural ability doesn’t happen in Asia. (On another note, maybe people can see where I’m coming from when I think it would be nice if the academically talented got into the elite colleges…) </p>

<p>An Indian guy I work with (who I haven’t spoken about my history in school) made this observation: the American education system is the best in the world if you are average, but it’s terrible if you are academically talented.</p>