Are prestigious schools worth massive debts for lower income students?

Parents Forum
1

<p>Hello, I realize that this topic, as with many others on this site, is completely subjective, divisive, and ultimately requires a decision from each individual student but I feel compelled to ask regardless. (SORRY FOR THE VERBOSITY!!!!)</p>

<p>I'm 28 years old. I have been back at school at the local community college (CT, Fairfield County) putting in hard work for 3 solid semesters. My goal from the beginning has been to gain admittance into a small, seminar-based, rigorous, intellectually challenging LAC for my last two years. The reasoning behind this goal has less to do with prestige (though, the most rigorous and challenging schools often seem to be the most prestigious) and more to do with the desire to be in a community of learners; being surrounded by other smart, motivated people who love education as much as I do. </p>

<p>As the time draws near to apply for transfer, a very crappy reality is setting in and a dilemma has presented itself. I have a decent shot of being accepted into my ideal school (Wesleyan University in Middletown, specifically). I have worked very hard, earned a 3.99, made great contacts, taken the hardest classes the CC offers, joined the honors program, found meaningful extra-curricular activities (despite working part time at a demanding job) and in general I have sacrificed a lot to create a strong academic resume but the catch is that I am poor. I am financially independent, I am a full time student with no savings and a family that cannot contribute. </p>

<p>So, should I be lucky enough to attend the college of my choice, I would more than likely require large loans to cover the rather insane tuition, even if they gave a generous grant (if tuition is roughly $40k, a $20k grant would still leave me with $20k loan per year just for undergraduate). My ultimate plan is to go to grad school, possibly a PhD program in history and I was under the impression that some schools are better prep for grad school than others. But, since I am not pursuing a high paying career (I want to go into education, likely as a college professor) some people have advised me to go to the cheapest undergrad school possible and hope to get into a good grad school after that. Obviously, this advice is practical but it goes against everything I have worked so hard for. </p>

<p>In your opinion, are prestigious schools worth enormous debts for people that have the desire, aptitude, and achievement but not the money? Is it easier to get into grad school coming from a good school versus, say, an online school like Charter Oak (this was what my transfer counselor recommended I do, so that I could work full time and avoid more undergrad loans)?
I'll stop now, hopefully you all get the gist of my dilemma and all opinions are appreciated. Kudos to anyone who takes the time to read it all!!! Cheers!</p>

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<p>You need a plan to cover some different scenarios.</p>

<p>Apply to Wesleyan – and Trinity – and Yale – and see what happens. You might be surprised and have good aid from one of them.</p>

<p>Also apply to UConn Storrs – the costs will be less. </p>

<p>What about Fairfield U? You would not have to move, you could keep your current job, and they may offer enough night classes. You’d have to check that option out.</p>

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<p>Congrats on your great grades.There have been many, many discussions on this topic here on cc, in various forms and iterations. You might want to do a search and read several of the treads to get an idea of the opinions on this issue.</p>

<p>In your case, you are already 28, which I assume means you will be over 30 by the time you finish undergrad, and then perhaps in your mid 30’s by the time you finish your doctorate. Even if you find a grad program that pays your full freight, you’ll still have about 40K or more in loans to pay off. Will you still work pt. time elsewhere to bay your housing costs and other basic expenses? Do you then plan to pursue a position in academia? Starting salaries for faculty are what-- in the 40’s maybe? (I am guessing). Are you married? Do you have or want kids? A mortgage? A car loan? You’ll have about 10 less years to pay off this debt than the traditional undergrad, so as attractive as this option is to you, if it means taking out loans rather than attending a school that will give you an all grant/no loan option, I would think very long and very hard about that choice. I went to a smal LAC undergrad school and I loved every minute of it, don’t get me wrong, but I didnt come out with debt. I had some student loans to pay off after grad school (not a lot-- it was less than 15k total at the time), but it took 10 yrs to pay off the loan, and I was 27 yrs old when I was done with grad school and employed in my career.</p>

<p>Have you calculated your EFC? Are you sure you will be facing this amt of debt? If so, I wouldnt do it, but it is a dream you have clearly pursued, and if you can find other ways of achieving that dream without the debt, go for it!</p>

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<p>Thanks for the reply! I am indeed applying to all of the schools you mentioned with hopes of being surprised by their offers. I am looking more seriously into the Storrs Honor College option, though, Storrs is almost too far away. I’m in a long term relationship and Storrs would be difficult for both of us for a few reasons but in every other way, this option would be the best plan B. “Fit” plays a big role in my decision to apply to Wes. For me, diversity and liberal minded people are almost a necessity. I’ve heard pretty poor things about Trinity and Connecticut College in these respects, though I’m sure things are far from ideal at either Yale or Wes. Thanks again for the reply. I’ll look into FU.</p>

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<p>jym26, very sound advice. My late start is a huge factor when thinking about taking on debt. Yes, if I go full time all the way through, I will be finishing grad school in my mid 30’s (for masters) or possible late 30’s/early 40’s (PhD) … which does start to sound like I’ll be paying debts until I die. Scary. I am not married, I probably won’t ever have kids; I don’t own a car, I don’t have a mortgage, and I have no credit card debt and I intend on being able to say the same of all these things for the rest of my life. I’m weird like that. I’m gay, so the whole family/kids/mortgage thing just never really felt like an option for me growing up and now, while it may be an option because of how things have changed, I have decided to embrace my radical future as a lifelong renter. I guess these beliefs of mine have helped to rationalize large debts (I don’t want a house or a car loan and I don’t believe in credit card debt, so I might as well go in debt for something i believe in) but the thought of having huge debt, no matter what they were accrued for, seems scarier the closer I get to transferring.
Nothing is for sure until I receive my FA package from these schools (assuming i get in), I may get a great package, in which case all this worrying will be wasted. I may get not money, in which case I better have a plan B. Sounds like I need to start coming up with a solid plan B. Thanks all.</p>

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<p>if you want to get a funded PhD, you probably don’t want to attend an online school. UCONN would be okay, but you should wait and see what the finaid packages are.</p>

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<p>From your post #5 I understand why you are attracted to Wes and less so to the other schools in the area. And why Fairfield might not be a ‘fit’ although it has a pretty good reputation. And if you’d consider New London … Storrs is not that far, although it’s not on the train line or 95.</p>

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<p>Since you want a small liberal arts college:</p>

<p>jroe, I can’t tell what gender you are, but if you’re female, you might want to look into Wellesley. They have a program called Davis Scholars for nontraditional students, which also includes supplemental financial aid (Davis Scholars are also eligible for all the regular financial aid). They allow you to talk classes part-time or full-time, so you could work while you went to school. And as a Davis Scholar, you would be considered financially independent from your parents for financial aid purposes.</p>

<p>[Wellesley</a> College, Nontraditional Student Website: FAQs](<a href=“http://www.wellesley.edu/NSP/faqs.html]Wellesley”>http://www.wellesley.edu/NSP/faqs.html)</p>

<p>Also, like others have said, you may be surprised at how much aid some schools will give you.</p>

<p>Another place to consider is Berea College in Kentucky. Berea accepts applications only from those whose family income is in the bottom 40% of US households, and charges no tuition. In exchange, students work on-campus jobs 10 hours/week. It is a Tier 1 LAC. It also emphasizes sustainable living, which sounds like it might appeal to you.</p>

<p>[About</a> Berea College | Berea College](<a href=“About - Berea College”>About - Berea College)</p>

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<p>Take a look at the College Board web site:</p>

<p>[College</a> Search - Wesleyan University - Cost & Financial Aid](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)</p>

<p>I looked up Wesleyan and found these statistics:
Financial Aid Statistics
Full-time freshman enrollment: 733
Number who applied for need-based aid: 390
Number who were judged to have need: 329
Number who were offered aid: 329
Number who had full need met: 329
Average percent of need met: 100%
Average financial aid package: $30,755
Average need-based loan: $3,217
Average need-based scholarship or grant award: $26,348
Average non-need based aid: $36,805
Average indebtedness at graduation: Not reported</p>

<p>You might be surprised that you might be offered a better deal than you think you will be.</p>

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<p>jessiehl- sorry, I’m a guy but I WISH i could go to Wellesley, a truly impressive school. I left out some important info about geography; I am limited to schools in CT and NYC metro area. Berea sounds fantastic! I appreciate the help. </p>

<p>susgeek- I feel so amateur for not researching that info myself! Those stats sound promising and I would unquestioningly take out a $3k+ loan for Wes but I have to wonder how the stats for transfer students differ. I have heard that transfers are low on the list of FA priority but I also know that Wes claims to have a “special interest” in transfer students from Connecticut Community Colleges. Whether this special interest translates into favorable FA packages, I can only find out by applying.
I have heard from many sources that I may be surprised by offers from private schools and it is under this belief that I am going to take a chance and apply.
Fingers crossed and nose to the grind stone … but those stats are truly inspiring!</p>

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<p>This is very individual question with many variables depending on family situation, major, desire. future graduate school cost…and many others. My D. did not care to go to any elite colleges, and I am very happy about not paying tuition at all because of her Merit scholarships. We would not go into debt anyway, we would pay for whatever she would have chosen.</p>

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<p>The debt is a very bad idea, but you do sound like a good candidate for a school that meets full need. Focus on those schools that meet 100% of need.</p>

<p>Also keep a keen eye on the fact that there is incredible competition for professor positions in the humanities. Only a small percent of newly minted PhDs are able to get solid, tenure track jobs. A recent article in the New York Times talking about this situation featured a woman with a good PhD saying she made the equivalent of $9/hr as an adjunct prof at a community college–the best job she could find.</p>

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<p>hmom5, I have heard about the plight of humanities professors and it is quite worrisome. However, I have decided to live my life according to my passions and my aptitude, rather than whatever trends the job market might be touting at the moment. It’s not an easy decision to make but at least I’m making it with full awareness of the risks.</p>

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<p>^^^^ Pursuing your passion is certainly understandible, but going into a potentially low-paying field with potentially a high amount of debt isn’t a good plan. And while you say you aren’t planning to have kids, does the person with whom you are in a long term relationship feel the same way? There may be many unexpected expenses in your future. I agree with everyone who suggests you look at schools that meet 100% of need. Good luck.</p>

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<p>As a humanities prof I can say that an online program will probably not meet your needs.</p>

<p>You say NY metro area. Is CUNY a possibility? The tuition is incredibly reasonable. Stony Brook just across the Sound? Ditto reasonable tuition.</p>

<p>I would also apply to Conn College. Yes, neither Conn Col or Trinity is as liberal or diverse as Wes, each is a very credible institution and would get you where you want to go, perhaps debt free or with very minimal debt.</p>

<p>I graduated into the recession of 1973 from undergraduate school and resisted going to grad school because of the shortage of jobs. Finally it was clear that academics is the only field I’m happy in, and I did find a tenured job. BTW: I passed up attending Columbia for Stony Brook because the job market was so bleak. Both had funded PhD programs but at Columbia I would have had to pay for the masters year.</p>

<p>I have always regretted this decision. I was loan free but I limited my employment options.</p>

<p>Few people know that in many situations PhD’s can teach high school without the education courses and student teaching so if college teaching is unavailable when you finish, there is always that option, or retraining a bit to teach high school.</p>

<p>Yes, it is a tough job market, but all are right now. Keep a plan B in the back of your head and carry on.</p>

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<p>jym626- I agree that it may be a risky plan, and with that in mind I will most likely only enroll in a school that will offer me a great FA deal. But the difference between a few thousand, in the long run, is potentially so small compared to the advantages offered by more “name brand” institutions. Unexpected expenses, heard. It’s so true. I guess in this sense, life is all about calculated risks and gambles. As for my partner and I, as of now we are both content to be free but things do change. </p>

<p>mythmom- thank you! i agree that on online college lacks in some fundamental areas: interpersonal communication skills, public speaking, articulating ideas on the spot, personal connections made with professors, and a host of others that I cannot think of at the moment. There are certainly good choices in between online college and Wes. I have heard wonderful things about Hunter College and I would be more than happy to attend because I love the city, but I have also heard that for out-of-state students the deal is not quite so sweet. I suppose I should add it to my transfer list. I will apply to Trin and Conn and I realize that in many ways these schools are both desirable (they are just not my ideal).
You say that passing on Columbia has limited your employment options, could you elaborate? That is exactly why I’m even considering taking out the loans to afford the brand school, but I’m just not sure such is the case when it comes academic careers.</p>

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<p>^^ I agree, jrjoe, but it sounded like you were talking about more than a “few thousand”. IIRC, it sounded like you were talking about potentially $40K, and thats a lot of $$, IMO. If going to Wes costs only a few thousand more than going to a less desired school, go for it. If it will cost $20k/yr more, think hard about it.</p>

<p>You sound like you have worked hard for a long time and deserve the best that you can get. And as mythmom mentioned, a decision you make now can impact your future. Its just, to me, that the risk of being a few thousand in debt is no biggie, but the risk of being in your 40’s and being in $40K debt with the salary of a starting junior faculty member is tough. I am not saying dont do it- I am just saying its a really tough choice, as you will have a tougher time being able to save money for your retirement, etc, which will be forestalled even further for you.</p>

<p>You clearly have a passion and you should go after it. You are fortunate that you are in the NE where there are several wonderful schools to choose from. And while it is tough being apart from your partner for a while, I would leave that option open too. Keep an open mind. Its tough, but not impossible. And if it is a strong relationship, it will withstand the test of time.</p>

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<p>jroe: Ivy level grad programs open doors for college teaching. They just do. Every school wants to list prestigious schools in the credentialling section of their catalogs. </p>

<p>So, my Stony Brook degree did not prepare me to apply for the “best” jobs. Had I been more aggressive, maybe the situation would have been different. </p>

<p>My dissertation was awarded best in US for 1987 so I probably could have gone after more elite jobs after than, but I was already comfortable at the job I had.</p>

<p>I think any credible institution will line you up well for grad school if you maintain the kind of grades you’re talking about.</p>

<p>University of Hartford, University of Bridgeport – look at all of them. I would make a search, but you’re obviously competent and can do so your self. University of New Haven is an option too.</p>

<p>My undergrad degree was from Stony Brook too and I was accepted at Berkeley and Columbia for grad school. </p>

<p>Therefore, I agree with jym that $40K in debt for undergrad is probably not a good option if you have others.</p>

<p>And yes, you do have wonderful options to choose from. CT is just full of colleges.</p>

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<p>There is no way that you should go into debt for a PhD. Departments that do not offer stipends and tuition remission generally produce graduates going into job markets that do not pay enough to make the degree worthwhile financially. Fields that do pay well enough provide stipends. Departments offering PhDs have been known to take advantage of candidates–they need bodies to be TAs and research assistants but don’t care a wit about the job market afterwards.</p>

<p>Doing it a bit at a time while employed is a different matter.</p>

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<p>As I think has been made clear here, at the most prestigious colleges (i.e., those that meet full financial need, and without excessive loans, which corresponds pretty well to “the most prestigious”) students with extremely low income do NOT have to take on massive debt. They may have to take on some debt, and thus to evaluate whether the education is worth the debt. But often they will not have a cheaper alternative, so the answer will almost certainly be “yes”.</p>