<p>My D is a HS junior with the stats and ECs to be competitive at several top schools. She will probably be offered a full merit based scholarship at our state university. She currently has no career direction or goals. We are upper middle class and won't qualify for any need based aid. Is it worth $40K+ a year to go to a name school for undergrad?</p>
<p>No, they quite simply aren't. </p>
<p>Now that I've said that, I'll explain. State schools get a bum rap from too many people who seem posessed by ivy-mania. Some people become convinced the only way for them to suceed in life is to go to a school because of its name and ignore the state schools entirely. That is certainly a mistake. I would advise you to definitely look at not only your state school but other state schools around the nation that offer merit scholarships and compare the kind of experience they offer to that of an ivy.</p>
<p>The key to finding the right state school is to check out the honors program: how many honors classes are offered, what kind of advising program do they have, are there honors dorms, etc. At many state schools, these top honors students end up receiving more attention than one would at an ivy. While many people limit the state school search to schools like Michigan or UVA, merit scholarships are much more plentiful at other state schools with some very good programs. The southern state schools especially are very eager to attract out of staters and will open their pocketbooks to accomodate the best students. </p>
<p>I personally must put in a plug for the University of Georgia as I will attending it in the fall on a very generous merit scholarship that goes beyond money and into incredible study abroad, research, and mentorship oppertunities. In fact, I am sure I will have more oppertunities at Georgia than I would at some of the schools I am turning down like Dartmouth and Rice. Many other state schools and other lesser-known privates offer some excellent programs like this that I would advise you to consider in lieu of paying full freight elsewhere.</p>
<p>Depends how much money you've got, and what alternatively you would spend it on otherwise, doesn't it? (In other words, do you buy Hyundhai or Lexus, and in your scheme of things, does it make a difference?)</p>
<p>Yeah Vig,</p>
<p>Hanover's loss is Athen's gain. I hope you have a great time at UGA, and as you said students can and will do well at a number of schools because there are many great ones.</p>
<p>You will get two different opinions on CC on this topic. </p>
<p>My son is a college freshman this year, (received a Trustee's Scholarship at USC), and he had scores and ECs signifcaint enough to attend a top LAC or an ivy. My daughter will likely be starting college full-time in fall 2006-2007 (she is 15 and taking classes full-time at a local state university, had a 1520 SAT in 7th grade, and had a 225 on PSAT last fall. We homeschool, and we are calling her a HS junior this year so she can qualify for National Merit Scholar next year). Since I am in the midst of starting a company and have two more children coming along for college, I have somewhat limited funds right now for college, but will not likely receive significant financial aid. I would like to help my children financially get through grad school with few loans. My son intends to go to law school, amd my daughter wants to go to med school. Undergrad tuition alone will run about $135,000 for a top LAC or ivy. I intend to spend my dollars LATER to help them through professional school.</p>
<p>Admittedly I am somewhat biased. I attended Univ of Florida as an undergrad, and then received a fellowship to receive my PhD in Mech Engr at MIT. I was definitely as well prepared academically as any other grad student at MIT, and had no difficulty with any coursework or research projects.</p>
<p>If you are really what I would call "upper middle class" and you have some limit on the funds, then you may want to consider this option. If you have enough funds for both undergrad and grad tuition for all of your children, then I would send your daughter to the top school where she can get accepted.</p>
<p>Other threads have discussed fairly competitive colleges that give full-tuition merit scholarships to applicants that have ivy league caliber credentials but want to avoid paying for undergrad tuition (e.g. Tulane, USC, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, Richmond, Davidson, Furman, Univ of Tulsa, Univ of Florida, etc.) Also, some state colleges are better than others, depending on your major. In my opinion (and I am mostly knowledgeable about sciences and engineering), state universities in the Big 10, for example, provide excellent preparation for grda school or for a career. Since your daughter doesn't know what she wants to do, a good state university might allow her the possibility to explore a variety of fileds. Much depends on your daughter. One of the things you will definitely be paying for at a top LAC or ivy is positive peer pressure to spend adequate time at studies. If she is more self-motivated, then she may be able to excel at a variety of different places.</p>
<p>If I were infinitely wealthy, then all of my kids would go to ivy-league caliber colleges, or at least the best colleges they could get into, both undergrad and grad. But as I am not, I have chosen to direct my limited dollars for grad school. I really have an aversion for large loans for a young person starting out in the world. My children also know that, fair or not, they may need to perform better than their ivy-league counterparts to be accepted at a comparable grad school, but we have decided that for us this is the chosen path.</p>
<p>Think for a moment....borrow $200,000. study elementary educ. plan to pay school loan out of earnings and don't have a trust fund to supplement living expenses.....hmmmmmm Teach for America????</p>
<p>Borrow funds....graduate Wharton....pay back loan from low 6 figure earnings.....plan to get MBA soon after 4 year.....different yield on investment. </p>
<p>Gotta know more about what you are asking us????</p>
<p>To answer the question that started the thread, it could be worth it, but it depends on your child's career aspirations and EXACTLY which schools you are comparing. </p>
<p>By the way, are you SURE you won't qualify for any "financial aid" (= discounts from list price)? Until you ask for real when your child applies to college, you can use online calculators to estimate what's on offer. Princeton has a very good online financial aid calculator on its site. Financial aid can go up to some amazingly high income levels, because list price is, after all, forbiddingly high at many schools.</p>
<p>The majority of top LACs DO offer merit aid. (though nothing close to $40k.)</p>
<p>Wow, some great replies...</p>
<p>Vig, great response!. I'm sure you will go far in life.</p>
<p>dadoftrojan, like you, I went to a state university undergrad, graduated summa cum laude and attended an Ivy League professional school. I'm also self employed. For me, it's a matter of putting it into retirement fund or working a few extra years. As far as ROI strictly by the #s, it's probably not worth it. After all, you can always go to a good law school, med school or even Wharton for MBA with a good undergrad record from a state U. Howevever, there are definitely intangibles that aren't reflected in a strict dollars based ROI.</p>
<p>dadoftrojan, what type engineering degree do you have from UF? My senior S is currently torn between UF and Tulane. He wants EE. We are going to Gainesville in 2 wks for one more look before he makes the decision. Any info you care to share about UF would be great. BTW we are from metro New Orleans area, not that it matters.
Thanks,
a very stressed-out Tabbyzmom</p>
<p>As Dadoftrojan states, there is a middle path - LACs and small universities that give merit scholarships as well as need-based aid. She may not get a full ride, but could get enough to make the reamining cost doable, particularly if she really wants a smaller school - just requires more advance planning and research on your part.</p>
<p>tabbyzmom,</p>
<p>As an undergrad, I majored in engineering science at Florida (in Department of Engineering Science & Aerospace Engineering , which I think has since combined with mechanical engineering). I also did research projects in neuroscience department. MS and PhD at MIT were in Mechanical Engineering. I visited Gainesville last year with my son. He is more of a liberal arts person, and is majoring in hoistory at USC. We visited the Honors dorm at UF, and my son and I were not very impressed by the dorm (for some reason, but I do not remember exactly why), but the honors program director and other administrators seemed very supportive. My son ultimately selected USC because he was looking for more of an urban campus.</p>
<p>When I attended UF, it was probably not as highly rated as it is today (I graduated in 1982), as they have increased their SAT scores via the generous National Merit Scholarships (full-ride). I do not know current EE faculty, but I would assume it is an excellent department. All of my college roommates were EE majors, and they worked hard and had a great time. If your son applies himself and does well at UF, there is certainly no limit to how far he can go. By the way, just in case your son changes his mind about majoring in EE, the one thing that amazed me about seeing Univ of Florida again is how HUGE it is, in terms of having excellent facilities for everything from Law School, Dental School, Med School, Veterinary medicine, engineering, etc. all on one campus! </p>
<p>We live in Pennsylvania, so it would have been a significant distance for my son had he attended either UF or USC (but my parents live about 20 miles from Gainesville). You will obviously need to consider the pros and cons of your son living somewhat further away while at college. I live about 25 miles west of Philadelphia, and I know friends who send their children to Penn, which is in downtown Phila. Some of them see their kids very frequently, and some see them only at school breaks. It clearly depends on the kid and on the relationship with the parents.</p>
<p>Thanks, Trojandad, for the info. It is good to hear that your EE roommates did have a life!</p>
<p>OK, I have a bit of a different slant. I started at a state school because it was significantly cheaper and I received a state merit scholarship. Within a year, I was bored out of my mind. I had great friends but the level of challenge was zero. I transferred to a mid-ranked private university for my junior year, used financial aid, work study, loans and yes a merit scholarship to pay for it. The difference in terms of intellectual challenge was amazing, and this was a mid-ranked school, not a "top" ivy or LAC.</p>
<p>Bottomline, it all depends on the school - some publics are very, very good. Some are so-so. Some have outstanding honors programs that can give you as good an education as anywhere. Some have honors programs that are little more than a name. By the same token, there are some very, very good mid-level LACs and private universities where you can get excellent merit money and financial aid, especially if you are a top student. Sometimes these schools can actually end up being CHEAPER than a public university.</p>
<p>So, I always tell folks not to limit themselves. Consider the full range of possibilities. It is NOT just a choice between Ivies and top LAC's costing $40,000 a year and a state school costing $20,000 a year. There are a TON of possibilities in between. Don't limit your daughter - encourage her to look at a variety of options but do tell her whatever your financial limits are.</p>
<p>As long as this stays on the parents forum: </p>
<p>I have not quite rationalized the fact that I'm paying taxes to support a separate and segregated college (honors) within college at the public level. For that matter I am still unsure about TAG programs in public schools. Should we use the money being spent on honors' to improve the entire system of higher education?</p>
<p>As backround. Our kid attends a well rated, private university with a negotiated merit award, and did the TAG stuff in public K-12. He could have gotten a full ride, honors program at our state univers but believed
the school would not give him the opportunities and experience that he wanted. He is currently doing well and is ambitious. We had no input of college, other than making sure the financing was inplace to do whatever he wanted. </p>
<p>just musing.</p>
<p>audio: A college education is an investment--but you can get the same 'return' for much less money, as you well know. </p>
<p>If the student isn't begging to take on the gamble (loans and work/study), then the investment must be weighed by the parents. Perhaps one rule of thumb might be:</p>
<p>Pay $40k++ a year if you're never going to think about that money again. </p>
<p>Or, apply the althletes 'broken leg" rule: </p>
<p>Happy to pay $40k++ year-- even if DS or DD sits on 'the bench' (gets Cs/never makes friends/changes majors six times).</p>
<p>Carolyn: You wrote my best friend's story! Except that she didn't transfer. Accepted to H as a legacy, her parents wouldn't let her go (and she foolishly took them at their word) she did Top program at State U and State Law School U. She said everyone was very very "nice" at State U.</p>
<p>I think the best thing to do would be to apply to all those top LAC's and ivy league schools. IF your D makes it in, then you can realistically compare the financial aid packages that they offer. It'll also give her the chance to go the pre-frosh events and see if this is really what she wants.</p>
<p>I was all set on going to a local school in the area but got into one of the ivy-calibre schools. Upon visiting, I knew that it was definitely where I belonged. </p>
<p>Personally, I think that attending a high-calibre school can offer you many opportunities that are relatively rare to find at state schools. Virg mentioned that she gets a stipend to travel abroad from school... at my school I would say 1/5-1/4 of my classmates take a semester to a year off to travel abroad and study in a foreign country, by fellowships that they can apply to on campus. These opportunities aren't limited to the few merit-scholars at the school, but open to everyone, leading towards the 'positive energy' that some of the other posters have talked about. </p>
<p>Don't limit yourself by not applying to these schools. Apply, see if your D makes it in, and then go and see the school and decide.</p>
<p>Let's remember that top LACs and Ivies does not necessarily mean the most expensive. There are many schools that are not as selective and yet are equally expensive. The important thing to bear in mind, for applicants who might not qualify for financial aid, is the availability of merit aid.</p>
<p>I live in the state of Ohio, and our state colleges/universities run about $16,000 - $20,000 (+ or - a very small amt). There is not much merit aid at any of these schools although Bowling Green State University offers full tuition/fees for a 1300SAT/30ACT with a 3.8 GPA. BGSU does seem to have a nice honors program. To make a long story short other than BGSU the other private schools my son applied to in Ohio (Case Western Reserve University [top tier], Marietta, Otterbein and several others) were far cheaper in the long run over the state schools.</p>
<p>He will go to Case because they offered him a very nice merit scholarship, and you can get your masters in five years which will save us money in the long run.</p>
<p>All I'm trying to say is that if your child is bright don't think that you have to pay a fortune at a private school. You might just be suprised. Don't forget to look into whether they can live on/near the campus to avoid having a car (also will save you on paying car insurance).</p>
<p>On the same note, we know many people who lived at home, worked full-time, drove a junker, and went to local colleges. They are very successful, happy people. The name on the school does not make a person. </p>
<p>itstoomuch - I'm not sure what you mean about rationalizing paying taxes to support honor's programs at college. If Case had not offered my son a merit scholarship then my son would have went to BGSU because of the honor's program. I certainly don't mind paying taxes to support all the programs for the learning disabled children. We homeschooled my two sons until high school because the schools didn't offer (at the time) a gifted program. Did I mind paying taxes when we did this? Absolutely not. We needed to do what we needed to do. We as a society can not only support the "average" people we have to share the monies. Sorry, I felt that I had to address this issue. I'll get of my soapbox now!</p>
<p>Yes. They are worth the money.</p>