There are obviously a bunch of different pros and cons to going international, but in my situation I think it’ll be beneficial to me. Basically my situation is that I have amazing stats, class rank, course rigor, test scores and all that, but apparently (according to the top universities in my country) I’m “boring”, “uninteresting”, and, of course, not “passionate”. I don’t have any meaningful extracurriculars on my app. I was in Spanish National Honor Society for two years but we did nothing in it, I did one technology club as a freshman (technology is my main hobby), but it was canceled that year and again, didn’t do much in it. I’ve had a summer job at a day camp for four years, first two as a volunteer and second two paid. That’s probably my most powerful one, but it’s also my only powerful one. Besides that, really nothing else is there. And before you say “you probably have EC’s but you just don’t know they’re EC’s,” the answer is no. Yes, indeed, I have spent my free time for four years doing nothing meaningful. I program and make rudimentary video games as a hobby, but nothing too big and no “external validification” like sales, downloads, or publishing. Besides that it’s just normal teenager stuff.
Clearly my situation excludes me from the top (I mean like top 20) schools in America, but I’ve heard that the top schools in other countries (places like McGill, UToronto, and Oxbridge) are more stats-focused and less focused on your extracurriculars while still having a comparable quality of education, and certainly one above that of the American schools I can get into with no EC’s. Maybe because less people apply to these international schools, I don’t know. But is this actually true? Is there an admissions advantage for someone like me in international schools?
Yes, but pricing may be more than in-state at your flagship. Some schools may only care about AP test scores, SAT/ACT etc and not grades (Oxbridge), some abut SAT/ACT and grades. If you are a Canadian or EU citizen pricing will be much lower in your countries of citizenship.
What do you want to study? What’s your parents’ budget?
You can certainly apply to McGill, UBC, UToronto, Waterloo, one of Oxford or Cambridge, Imperial. If you’re fluent in a foreign language, there are more possibilities.
But if you don’t need financial aid, Cal Poly SLO wouldn’t really care about your EC’s either and if GPAXSAT meet their requirements, you’re in. The Honors College at your State Flagship and other flagships may well care more about your stats than anything else. If you have the budget, UWashington would certainly be a possibility. If you don’t, Temple, UAlabama… offer automatic full tuition scholarships and honors college admission for stats.
Don’t go off of assumptions. There are differences among the American elites, even. And just getting all 5’s on AP’s isn’t good enough for Oxbridge. What state are you in, what are you interested in, and what can your parents afford?
And what type of college environment would you like?
Germany has free tuition at many great schools btw for anyone who wants to attend. That’s one advantage! Room and board and other expenses add up to less than the cost of community college in the US, often. You’d come back with a great language under your belt. The education is top-notch. All of Europe would be open to you for travel.
https://www.daad.de/deutschland/nach-deutschland/en/
I have one with great stats who went international, after taking a few months to become fluent in the language. Check the requirements. Often you need to have high AP scores in various categories to be considered on par with the local graduates (sad, but true).
Yes, it was all about and only about stats. No one cared about extracurriculars at all. Mine got into the chosen university and has wide exposure to many languages, which is important to this one. Classes and exams were harder than anything ever done here, including the the 4th year college level (which were done in high school in one area).
The European unis tend to be good for folks who want to (and are capable) of going deep in to only one subject. They tend to not have a lot of flexibility. Or frills. And the good ones tend to be tough (meaning many with high drop-out rates).
But you really need to answer more of the questions earlier.
How much flexibility or how many frills do you need? Why don’t you decide what you want to do first and then go to college. It is true that once you are admitted for a major, that is your major. There is still opportunity for some electives though.
I guess this is why European graduates are often older. Maybe they decide what they want to do first and don’t just go to college aimlessly because it is the next thing to do (not saying you are doing this, but it certainly happens a lot).
@TranquilMind, well, a lot of times, they may start down one track, then realize that they aren’t cut out for it or aren’t interested, then switch, etc.
@PurpleTitan @TranquilMind Yep. I have a friend who lives in Spain. She started university just out of high school like everyone else, but she enrolled as a software engineering major. After two years, she switched to translation and interpretation, and she’s now graduating in her sixth year.
American students do that too…
True enough, @bodangles, but low/nonexistent tuition may make switching around more affordable/appealing.
Also, as I mentioned, in Europe, there’s far less flexibility, so unlike the American system, where at many schools, you can take classes in a wide array of subjects before declaring a major, typically in Europe, you enter a major straight-away, and if it turns out that it isn’t for you, you have to get in and start all over down another track.
@GMTplus7 and @PurpleTitan are right in that it appears you’re naive about your chances of getting into Oxbridge. They’re as low, if not lower, than your odds of getting into HYPS, just not for the reasons you think.
And of course you can get a very good education in Europe – and if you choose right, for less (perhaps a lot less) than in the US. However, comparing the two systems is a bit apples/oranges. It’s VERY different. Read up on the realities, and decide if they’re for you. For some students, it’s a very good alternative. For others, it’s a tougher road.
If you need “hand holding” you will not find that at Canadian or overseas schools.
Right, though some folks are pointier and thus more attractive to Oxbridge than to HYPSM.
Also, there are some extremely rigorous and respected CS programs in the UK where just getting a bunch of 5’s in the right AP classes (and not screwing up the personal statement or other stuff) is likely to get you in. Edinburgh and Imperial come to mind.
In Canada, Waterloo is also extremely rigorous in CS and has an insane number of alums as startup founders in Silicon Valley. It deserves its sobriquet as the MIT of Canada. And it’s not that costly. And I believe you just need high enough scores to get in.
In the US, Caltech seems to be a place that wants the brightest minds in STEM. It doesn’t give any extra points for race, legacy, or athletic ability.
In reply to some of these responses: sorry for the vagueness of my original post. I wasn’t trying to imply at all that top foreign universities are easy to get into or a guarantee. All I was asking was if the admissions standards were different compared to those of the elite US schools. Here in this country the conventional wisdom is that grades and stats are a hurdle to get over but after that it’s all dependent on extracurriculars. I can’t count how many times I’ve heard “those schools regularly reject qualified applicants”. Which is fine by the way, I totally understand the system and it definitely has its merits. But for someone in my position it just doesn’t work. So I’m asking if it’s a different way at foreign schools, which is basically what I’ve heard. To clarify a few more things: my intended major is computer science, I am fluent in only English, and money is not an issue.
OK, so my suggestions of Waterloo, Edinburgh, and Imperial are good. Be aware that you’ll only be taking CS and CS-related classes at Imperial; CS classes maybe 80% of the time at Edinburgh (and all of the last 2 years).
However, don’t operate off of false assumptions.
What are your goals? There are a lot of good CS schools in the US, and just because some of the elites look for more than just grades and test scores doesn’t mean that ECs are what makes the difference.
Have you put any thought in to what type of school you would like or characteristics or flexibility?
You need more than high scores to get into Waterloo for CS or for engineering. Waterloo uses a form called AIF (admissions information form) which is similar to the Common App. The prof in charge of admissions for engineering writes a blog to describe their admissions process - here’s a good posting that describes how to apply https://profbillanderson.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/2015/10/31/admissions-2016-how-its-going-to-work/
This year for CS at Waterloo, there were 6000 applications for 447 spots. For engineering, there were 12000
applications for 1550 spots. Unfortunately for the OP, only 200 of those engineering spots are available to non-Canadians and there were about 3400 applications for those 200 spots.
U of T is a little more opaque in its CS and engineering admissions. There is no additional information form for computer science. This year’s admission cutoff was predicted to be about 90% (ie students would need 90% or greater in their grade 12 courses in order to be admitted to the computer science program). However, admission to the program does not guarantee admission to the major. Students must get a minimum GPA in their first year courses in order to be admitted. Essentially, they will need to be in the top 30-40% of the CS classes in order to be admitted to the major. For U of T engineering, there is a video interview.
UBC engineering is now using the Common App.
I would think McGill would be a shoe-in. How about Trinity in Dublin? Oxbridge is about more than test scores, and I understand the interview can be grueling.