Looking for guidance for my S. He wants to study in Europe to pursue some type of environmental science and may live in Europe after graduation. He will be fluent in German upon graduating high school.
He is searching for the following: small LAC feel, developing relationships with professors is important, as is the ability to work in a small group learning environment to collaborate and banter, strong environmental science program, the ability to play jazz in a school band/ensemble, and live on a campus.
I realize that this describes many American LACs and not necessarily the European brand of higher Ed, however, we are looking for advice on how to find the needle in a haystack.
The most obvious parallel to a US LAC experience for a very strong student is Oxbridge with its college-centric small group teaching model. However environmental science isn’t regarded as a worthy subject, you have choices like earth science (geology) at Oxford, natural sciences (Phys/Chem/Bio/Geology) at Cambridge or Land Economy (law and economics as applied to planning and similar issues) at Cambridge. But it would meet your other requirements, assuming your S was capable of getting in.
I’m not sure he’d get accepted to these universities. Are their tier 2 schools that’d match his needs?
@Heckofatrip I can’t speak for continental European universities but I think I am correct in saying the US LAC education style is not common. Likewise in the UK, universities tend to be large by US standards but there are ways to make larger universities feel smaller. Take Durham for example, they have a collegiate system where you are a member of an individual college within the university, most of your socializing will revolve around college activities. Then you will have your department cohort, kids on the same course who will hang out together after lectures and tutorials, then you will have your societies and clubs whether it be sport, music, drama etc each will come with its own potential friend group. Before going any further it would be good to know where you son stands academically. In the UK, admission depends on academic ability in subjects relevant to the course he wants to study. What those subjects are may vary from university to university but each will have a website telling you what the requirements are. An idea of his academics will give you an indication where to start in matching his strengths to a university with a quality department in his area of interest. To stay in the EU/UK after graduation he will need to have a EU/UK passport, there maybe ways he can stay after graduation but I don’t know what they are, other folks on CC might have a better idea than me. In terms of cost, for undergrad tuition room and board use $35k per year as a guide, all universities are roughly the same no matter where you go, however as a rule Scottish universities tend to be 4 years and English/Welsh tend to be 3 years but there are exceptions in both.
Tuebingen University in Germany offers a one year pre-college program, https://uni-tuebingen.de/en/facilities/central-institutions/leibniz-kolleg/das-leibniz-kolleg/ , that seems very similar to an US style LAC honors college experience.
After the first year students would proceed with a regular major focused 3 year Bachelor program, such as for example environmental natural science: https://uni-tuebingen.de/fakultaeten/mathematisch-naturwissenschaftliche-fakultaet/fachbereiche/geowissenschaften/studium/studiengaenge/umweltnaturwissenschaften
I do not have any personal insight on how good those programs are, but it looks pretty great to me, especially as a compromise between the traditional bare bones German public university and personal but expensive US LAC experience.
Look into the Dutch University Colleges. However like most European universities they don’t include any campus or campus life, although students are housed together in the same house and have common activities. Most extracurricular activities are city-based.
In France you have the Écoles system but I don’t think they have English speaking programs in Environmental Science.
In Germany, Fachhochschule are smaller with smaller classes but are opposite to liberal arts (=applied subjects).
Elguapo1
My S has AP Chem and AP environmental science this year. He’s done very well, expecting positive results on tests. Pre-calc last year and prob and stat this year. He’s in the top 15% of his class. Strong extra curricular. Grades trending in positive direction. 1350 Sat and waiting on ACT.
Three great options to research. Germany is his first choice, but it appears the educational system runs somewhat contrary to his needs. The Netherlands are intriguing. The universities appear to have progressive environmental programs. I’ll be researching Durham tonight. Seems like a good match.
Be sure to review German university admission requirements well in advance. Besides a German language test they require a number of AP tests:
https://www.daad.de/deutschland/nach-deutschland/voraussetzungen/en/57293-daad-database-on-admission-requirements/?id=417&ebene=5
The following subject areas must be covered by your AP tests:
- Mathematics (Calculus AB or BC)
- 1 natural science subject (Biology, Chemistry or two half AP tests in Physics C)
- 1 language (French, Spanish, Latin, German, English Literature or English Language and Composition)
- 1 further subject (e.g. European History, American History, Computer Science or two half AP tests respectively in Macroeconomics and Microeconomics)
There is also an EU sponsored exchange program ¨Erasmus¨ that helps students to study across EU countries, thus it should be possible to for example enroll into a program in the Netherlands, but study for a year in Germany as part of the exchange. I would assume an US student who is officially enrolled to study in an EU university would qualify. It is kind of the EU wide version of the US national student exchange program https://www.nse.org/ .
@Heckofatrip Check out Lancaster University, it has an excellent Environmental Sciences program and is located on the opposite side of England as Durham, by a seaside town called Morcombe. It is a campus university and students are in seperate residential halls that act like the Durham college system. Lancaster will be well enough known by grad schools in the US, not so much by employers, of course he will have no issue if he remains in the UK. Your sons academics seem well on track but at either Durham or Lancaster he will need 3 AP’s prob all 5’s at Durham, 2 x4 and 1x 5 at Lancaster ,30 ACT and 28 ACT min respectively. I wouldn’t worry too much at all about EC’s unless they are linked to his course of study as they are not considered for admission. Familiarise yourself with the UCAS system which is the form required for UK admissions and also the personal statement in which he will describe why he wants to study environmental science and a little bit about himself. UCAS also has a course finder so type in environmental studies and it will find universities by course and region which will fit the bill. If you have any questions about other potential universities feel free to reach out.
You will not find anything resembling a small LAC in Germany and professors are not used to developing strong relationships with students in any meaningful way.
Leibniz Kolleg is a unique program but only for a year, and it’s just 25 kids or so, checking out classes at a regular huge German style university, and you leave after a year to strike out on your own. However, the town is very cute, German students are used to consider the whole town center as their campus, there are dorms for a small number of students which international students tend to get priority for and everyone eats in the huge cafeteria.
There are a few universities in Germany who are not spread out all over town but have some kind of campus structure, and some have more dorming options than others. Fachhochschulen will have more structure and smaller classes than universities, also tend to do better with advising, but offer very little flexibility.
I do know American students who have enjoyed their years abroad very much, living in dorms, some even joining fraternities to find their social groups. But they were juniors or grad students, already used to living on their own and seeking out their opportunities. I cannot think of any American students who did a full undergrad degree in Germany.
The one thing he will not be able to find is the close relationship with professors. It’s not the culture.
This is a website that lists schools by student body in descending order.
https://www.studis-online.de/Hochschulen/Universitaeten/staatlich/
You can check for both universities and Fachhochschulen. Note that anything up to 10,000 students would be considered „small“. Anything smaller than 4000 students will be very much a niche place. You can check for subjects offered as well. Smaller tech and mining schools will offer the most intimate and collaborative (but also structured] atmosphere, usually with a defined campus for academic buildings, but may only offer environmental engineering.
Full universities will usually offer humanities in historic buildings in the towns and city Centers, MINT subjects in newer campuses further out. There will be cafeterias wherever there are academics, but dorms can be anywhere, all over town. Schools in the former East have much better dorm provision.
Students will be much more integrated into the towns, living in apartments, working jobs within the community, going to bars and clubs (they will have been drinking legally for years), to private gyms or public pools.
Very very different.
The concept of teachers (let alone professors) being close to students is very American. In France for instance, teachers have no compunction humiliating a student in front of his/her classmates or telling them they have no place in their classroom. “Nice” professors may call students “idiots” or tell entire classes they’ll fail them. Try watching the films “Première Année” and le Brio (tellingly, the US trailer makes the professor’s comments way less offensive than they are in the French version - yelling “you’re late, typical” would not cause any personal trouble for a professor in France despite the racist “typical” even though the students may protest). In many countries, professors don’t talk with undergrads, the idea is that they come lecture and the students write it all down. Their role is not to “get to know” or “mentor” students below the grad level. That makes getting getting letters of recommendation difficult. There are exceptions (like St Andrews).
Amazing insight on European universities. I’m joping to hear from someone regarding the Netherlands.
I’m curious to know people’s opinions on employability in the US when an a student ( American) returns to the states from
Europe. Because his degree would be science related, I’m aware that a masters may be a must anyway. And in that case, returning to the US for a grad degree would solve any issues pertaining to employment. Am
I on the right track?
True.
However, not all programs allow students to get involved in research as undergrads - a must for STEM students who want to go to grad school. So, attending a highly reputable university would be important OR choosing a degree that includes research (like the M.Ind in Scotland: 5 years, with 1 year doing research for a private company.)
What about ETZH (in German)? Polytechnique Bachelor International (in English)?
Why does your son want to study in Europe?
Why not attend for a “gap year” - perhaps as a Gymnasium student/Science track? It’d help him gain fluency, which would open more options in German-speaking European countries, and it’d give him a good overview of the culture+school culture. He might make friends, which would help with socializing at university.
Could you please tell me more about the ETZH and Gymnasium programs?
My S will have completed four years of high school German classes along with a four week exchange program after his senior year, so I’d imagine there wouldn’t be much of a language gap.
Direct enrollment typically requires 3 college semesters post AP. He’d need to o either a year in studienkolleg or he could do the gymnasium year.
See CIEE, YFU…
What you are saying is that a student requires three semesters of coursework after high school to apply for direct enrollment. I had no idea. Is that for international students only or is that for German students as well?
I am guessing a gymnasium year is divided into three semesters. Does studienkolleg and gymnasium set you on different paths? My S is interested in studying environmental science. Which would set him in the right direction?
One year of Gymnasium won’t set him up for anything except for better language skills, it would be a gap year. In order to graduate from a gymnasium, you need to do an integrated two year program comparable to the International Baccalaureate program, study up to 13 subjects and sit five finals. I can’t imagine that’s an option.
You can apply to German universities with SATs and a full complement of APs (in a way, replicating a baccalaureate program) and they will assess his qualifications individually and decide whether to accept him into the Studienkolleg (Bridge program exclusively for international students) or have him start as a first year.
For a science courses, they will probably want to see calc, two sciences, a social science, English Lang and lit, a foreign Language (he can cover that with German and English), possibly a second foreign language, possibly art or music or PE. But with international qualifications, it’s up to the individual school, and no one but the school can tell you which qualifications they have accepted in the past and may accept in the future.
I meant in terms of German language: 4 years of German + a summer abroad will NOT be sufficient to take a university science class taught in German. In that case, he’d have Studienkolleg to bring his German up to speed.
Gymnasium is a Grade 5-12 (or 13) public prep school.
American exchange students are usually placed in the final year. That allows them to become fluent and to patch any gaps in knowledge or “German skills”. Exchange students can take the Abitur if they wish but they don’t have to.
CIEE, AFS, or YFU are all programs that send high school students abroad including in a Gymnasium yearor